Knowing Your Enemy: Satan's Attacks On SDAs

[Musicman1228]

John,

I don't have time right now to write a counter to your thoughts, but I will. I would like to point out to you a small problem with something you wrote:

"But Paul is not saying that he will become anything for the purpose of promoting his gospel. He won't disobey God."

If you believe the story Paul was on his way back to Jerusalem and stopped in a Tyre. He was confronted by a prophet that told Paul in no uncertain terms that he was not to go to Jerusalem because he would be killed. Do you remember what Paul's response to this instruction was? Paul told the prophet (who had 7 daughters) that he was going anyway. THAT is disobedience, and shows someone who is arrogant an not willing to do something he just doesn't want to do.

[Overaged]

John,

I don't have time right now to write a counter to your thoughts, but I will. I would like to point out to you a small problem with something you wrote:

"But Paul is not saying that he will become anything for the purpose of promoting his gospel. He won't disobey God."

If you believe the story Paul was on his way back to Jerusalem and stopped in a Tyre. He was confronted by a prophet that told Paul in no uncertain terms that he was not to go to Jerusalem because he would be killed. Do you remember what Paul's response to this instruction was? Paul told the prophet (who had 7 daughters) that he was going anyway. THAT is disobedience, and shows someone who is arrogant an not willing to do something he just doesn't want to do.

Which Bible passage are you referring to here? Please forgive me if you already posted it - I just had trouble finding it in so many posts made today.

In reference to the OP here, what is your point in denigrating the Bible as it is commonly accepted? By what authority do you and your cohorts revamp the Biblical Canon into what you say it is? To me; nothing could signify a determined hatred of Seventh-day Adventists more than this. We are a people of the Bible - the whole Bible, all of which is God's Word. Your determination to dismantle the Bible into your own private interpretation shows your intentions.

[John317]

I would like to point out to you a small problem with something you wrote:

"But Paul is not saying that he will become anything for the purpose of promoting his gospel. He won't disobey God."

If you believe the story Paul was on his way back to Jerusalem and stopped in a Tyre. He was confronted by a prophet that told Paul in no uncertain terms that he was not to go to Jerusalem because he would be killed. Do you remember what Paul's response to this instruction was? Paul told the prophet (who had 7 daughters) that he was going anyway. THAT is disobedience, and shows someone who is arrogant an not willing to do something he just doesn't want to do.

OK, you bring up a good point and one worth talking about. I've thought about this a long time.

What is your evidence that Paul believed that he was disobeying God when he went to Jerusalem at that time?

In Acts 20: 22ff, Paul says that he feels constrained by the Holy Spirit to go to Jerusalem. He goes on to say that the Holy Spirit has told him that he faces chains and tribulations wherever he goes. He doesn't hold his life dear but rather holds as dear the lives of those to whom he proclaims the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's all he really considers. He's not considering the dangers to himself but only the work that God has for him to do in teaching men about Christ.

You claim that Acts 21: 11-14 shows Paul disobeyed the will of God because "he was confronted by a prophet that told Paul in no uncertain terms that he was not to go to Jerusalem because he would be killed."

Could you please quote the verse where the prophet of God says this to Paul?

I think rather that it was a case of the Holy Spirit warning Paul that there was great danger ahead of him. I don't believe the Holy Spirit was telling Paul not to go. Paul had recently said that he was "going bound by the Spirit to Jerusalem" (Acts 20: 22). It can only mean that Paul believes the Holy Spirit wants him to go to Jerusalem.

But I do believe this: James was wrong to tell Paul to do what he did, and Paul was wrong to obey James' urgent request.

Having said that, the truth is that prophets and apostles make mistakes when not under the direct influence or inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Prophets and apostles weren't always under the influence of the Holy Spirit, and neither were the prophets of the Old Testament. They made mistakes and sometimes made big ones. Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Jonah, and many others come to mind, who made great mistakes.

But the point I would make here is that there is no evidence that the prophet Agabus told him the Holy Spirit commissioned him to tell Paul not to go to Jerusalem. I used to think this, too, but after studing the details further, I've come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit wasn't ordering Paul to stay away from Jerusalem.

Notice that the message from the Holy Spirit was not, "If you go to Jerusalem, you will be killed." The message was simply that the one who owns this belt will be bound and turned over to the Gentiles. Agabus doesn't say anything indicating that going to Jerusalem was opposed to God's will. The message is that there is great danger ahead.

But that was nothing new to Paul. He had always known there was great danger, ever since Christ gave him his commission as His apostle. From the very beginning, the Lord had made it known that there were "many things [Paul] must suffer for My name's sake."

What had Paul's response always been? It was always the same as it was after Agabus spoke to him. Paul said only, "The will of the Lord be done" (Acts 21: 14). Are those the words and the reaction of someone who is trying to avoid doing the Lord's will? If it had been me, I would have run as fast in the opposite direction as my legs could carry me, probably more like Jonah than Paul.

In view of all this, then, where is the valid evidence that Paul was deliberately and willfully fighting againt God's will?

Here is my question for you: Who was telling Paul through the prophet Agabus that the owner of that belt would be delivered into the hands of the Gentiles?

[John317]

If you believe the story Paul was on his way back to Jerusalem and stopped in a Tyre. He was confronted by a prophet that told Paul in no uncertain terms that he was not to go to Jerusalem because he would be killed. Do you remember what Paul's response to this instruction was? Paul told the prophet (who had 7 daughters) that he was going anyway. THAT is disobedience, and shows someone who is arrogant an not willing to do something he just doesn't want to do.

You're not reading the passage very carefully.

First of all, the prophet didn't have 7 daughters. It was Philip the Evangelist who had the 7 daughters who prophecied. See Acts 21: 8, 9.

Another thing is that you claim that Paul was "confronted by a prophet that told Paul in no uncertain terms that he [Paul] was not to go to Jerusalem."

Could you show me 2 things:

1) Where does the text indicate to you that Agabus "confronted" Paul?

2) Where does it indicate that Agabus told Paul "in no uncertain terms that he was not to go to Jerusalem"?

Have you talked about these verses on the radio program?

And if you ever have, did you or Wayfinder or Dr. Rich say the same thing that you have written about it?

[John317]

John,

I don't have time right now to write a counter to your thoughts, but I will. I would like to point out to you a small problem with something you wrote:

"But Paul is not saying that he will become anything for the purpose of promoting his gospel. He won't disobey God."

MM, in view of the two previous posts regarding Agabus and Paul, would you please revisit the "small problem" with what I wrote?

I think you'll admit that the incident with Agabus isn't very good evidence to show that Paul was disobeying God.

Do you believe you have other Bible evidence that shows Paul was deliberately disobedient to God?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Why should she need to read the Bible MM.

You have already made it clear that you do not accept it and that you think vast swathes of it are inspired by Satan.

How would that then benefit her?

If your view is correct of course...

Now you are being patronizing, which is beneath you.

So you believe that EGW actually IS equal to or greater than the Bible? And then, do you believe that any other writer either inside or outside the Bible is equal to or greater than the words of Jesus Christ? If you don't believe this then why will you not allow me the choice to believe the same as you? If you do believe that both Paul and/or EGW are equal to or greater than Jesus Christ I do feel sorry for you; because you have just admitted to having another god before the God of Creation. Ouch!

I am not being patronising.

You do not accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God.

If you do not accept it as such, how can you point to it as a valid source?

You claim, as do the muslims, that vaste tracts of it are "inspired by satan".

If you are wrong, which you sincerely are.

Then you are attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan...

Don't you have any concern about that at all?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Ask yourself this Pam.

Has Paul ever contradicted Jesus?

I don't know. I don't know everything that Jesus ever said, because it wasn't all written down. And I don't know what Paul said either. The Pauline letters (to me) are confusing. It's like he's writing too fast and doesn't complete his thoughts. Maybe he had ADHD. I don't know. (And if someone is thinking of asking, no, I can't give you an example, atm...sorry..)

I used to find Paul confusing too. :-)

But once you get a grip on his style of writing, it all begins to make sense.

He wrote specifically to mindsets at times.

But he weaves his thoughts up and down levels, or in and out of subjects.

Once I began to grasp his style, it really became quite beautiful.

Paul was a literary genius.

He writes in a very poetic style I find.

Very musical in its composition.

Try this:

Pretend one of Pauls epistles is bit like a Psalm, read through it with that in your mind and see what happens.

[Twilight]

That's partly because the letters were usually dictated to a secretary, and also because in speaking, Paul often would use long perenthesis'. A few words would make him think of a related idea and he would address it before returning to the main theme. For instance, 1 Cor. 3: 7-18 is really a perenthesis. He also uses rhetorical devices common in his day but which modern readers aren't familiar with. All these kinds of things can make it difficult for people to understand him. One thing you could do to make it earier to understand is read his letters in two or three different modern language translations or paraphrases. You might start out the Message Bible or Phillips translation or the Good New Bible.

I find Romans good in the NIV, although I would never recommend anything but the KJV for doctrinal study.

[Twilight]

Overaged, our trio of friends, have come to these conclusions because they have left the path of truth.

Where did they leave the path?

On the subject of Salvation by works.

They believe that you have to "earn" the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Because of that, they began to throw out Paul as uninspired, because they believed this understanding was more important than the canon of scripture.

Paul clearly teaches we receive the Holy Spirit though faith in Christ alone.

They reject that.

Not understanding that Jesus taught the same.

They then end up removing all of the scriptures that disagree with this teaching.

And attacking the Bible, Gods own inspired Word, so they can hold onto their error.

Apologies if you already knew this.

[John317]

I find Romans good in the NIV, although I would never recommend anything but the KJV for doctrinal study.

That's it. Use other translations for devotionals and for getting a fresh look at the context, but like you, I would only recommend literal translations for doctrinal study. I ususally use three or four along with the Greek NT. The KJV is always at the top for me, but I also often use the New American Standard, the Revised Standard, and the New King James. I'm not a "King James Only" but I do admire it and love to read it.

I do use and like the NIV for some parts of the Bible, but one needs to be careful about relying completely on that translation because it is not always accurate and certainly not literal. One of my favorite translations is the ESV, but it is based on a different Greek text than the KJV is.

[John317]

The following is from the Introduction to the book, The Great Controversy:

Quote:

Through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, the scenes of the long-continued conflict between good and evil have been opened to the writer of these pages. From time to time I have been permitted to behold the working, in different ages, of the great controversy between Christ, the Prince of life, the author of our salvation, and Satan, the prince of evil, the author of sin, the first transgressor of God’s holy law. Satan’s enmity against Christ has been manifested against his followers. The same hatred of the principles of God’s law, the same policy of deception, by which error is made to appear as truth, by which human laws are substituted for the law of God, and men are led to worship the creature rather than the Creator, may be traced in all the history of the past. Satan’s efforts to misrepresent the character of God, to cause men to cherish a false conception of the Creator, and thus to regard him with fear and hate rather than with love, his endeavors to set aside the divine law, leading the people to think themselves free from its requirements, and his persecution of those who dare to resist his deceptions, have been steadfastly pursued in all ages. They may be traced in the history of patriarchs, prophets, and apostles, of martyrs and reformers.

In the great final conflict, Satan will employ the same policy, manifest the same spirit, and work for the same end, as in all preceding ages. That which has been, will be, except that the coming struggle will be marked with a terrible intensity such as the world has never witnessed. Satan’s deceptions will be more subtle, his assaults more determined. If it were possible, he would lead astray the elect. Mark 13:22, Reevised Version.

As the Spirit of God has opened to my mind the great truths of his Word, and the scenes of the past and the future, I have been bidden to make known to others what has thus been revealed,—to trace the history of the controversy in past ages, and especially to so present it as to shed a light on the fast-approaching struggle of the future. In pursuance of this purpose, I have endeavored to select and group together events in the history of the church in such a manner as to trace the unfolding of the great testing truths that at different periods have been given to the world, that have excited the wrath of Satan, and the enmity of a world-loving church, and that have been maintained by the witness of those who “loved not their lives unto the death.”

[John317]

The Great Controversy 1888, Page 508

Among professed Christians, and even among ministers of the gospel, there is heard scarcely a reference to Satan, except perhaps an incidental mention in the pulpit. They overlook the evidences of his continual activity and success; they neglect the many warnings of his subtlety; they seem to ignore his very existence.

While men are ignorant of his devices, this vigilant foe is upon their track every moment. He is intruding his presence in every department of the household, in every street of our cities, in the churches, in the national councils, in the courts of justice, perplexing, deceiving, seducing, everywhere ruining the souls and bodies of men, women, and children, breaking up families, sowing hatred, emulation, strife, sedition, murder. And the Christian world seem to regard these things as though God had appointed them, and they must exist.

Satan is continually seeking to overcome the people of God by breaking down the barriers which separate them from the world. Ancient Israel were enticed into sin when they ventured into forbidden association with the heathen. In a similar manner are modern Israel led astray. “The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” [2 Corinthians 4:4.] All who are not decided followers of Christ are servants of Satan. In the unregenerate heart there is love of sin, and a disposition to cherish and excuse it. In the renewed heart there is hatred of sin, and determined resistance against it. When Christians choose the society of the ungodly and unbelieving, they expose themselves to temptation. Satan conceals himself from view, and stealthily draws his deceptive covering over their eyes. They cannot see that such company is calculated to do them harm; and while all the time assimilating to the world in character, words, and actions, they are becoming more and more blinded.

[Overaged]

Thanks for the insight. I see this as a case where some have gone beyond "leaving" or "refusing" truth to an actual attack mode, and there is a difference. I think the fact that no clear evidence against the Bible, or God, or Christianity has yet been presented says it all.

[Overaged]

The Great Controversy 1888, Page 508

Among professed Christians, and even among ministers of the gospel, there is heard scarcely a reference to Satan, except perhaps an incidental mention in the pulpit. They overlook the evidences of his continual activity and success; they neglect the many warnings of his subtlety; they seem to ignore his very existence.

While men are ignorant of his devices, this vigilant foe is upon their track every moment. He is intruding his presence in every department of the household, in every street of our cities, in the churches, in the national councils, in the courts of justice, perplexing, deceiving, seducing, everywhere ruining the souls and bodies of men, women, and children, breaking up families, sowing hatred, emulation, strife, sedition, murder. And the Christian world seem to regard these things as though God had appointed them, and they must exist.

Satan is continually seeking to overcome the people of God by breaking down the barriers which separate them from the world. Ancient Israel were enticed into sin when they ventured into forbidden association with the heathen. In a similar manner are modern Israel led astray. “The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” [2 Corinthians 4:4.] All who are not decided followers of Christ are servants of Satan. In the unregenerate heart there is love of sin, and a disposition to cherish and excuse it. In the renewed heart there is hatred of sin, and determined resistance against it. When Christians choose the society of the ungodly and unbelieving, they expose themselves to temptation. Satan conceals himself from view, and stealthily draws his deceptive covering over their eyes. They cannot see that such company is calculated to do them harm; and while all the time assimilating to the world in character, words, and actions, they are becoming more and more blinded.

Any specific ideas on HOW the enemy is doing this with Adventists today?

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

John,

I don't have time right now to write a counter to your thoughts, but I will. I would like to point out to you a small problem with something you wrote:

"But Paul is not saying that he will become anything for the purpose of promoting his gospel. He won't disobey God."

If you believe the story Paul was on his way back to Jerusalem and stopped in a Tyre. He was confronted by a prophet that told Paul in no uncertain terms that he was not to go to Jerusalem because he would be killed. Do you remember what Paul's response to this instruction was? Paul told the prophet (who had 7 daughters) that he was going anyway. THAT is disobedience, and shows someone who is arrogant an not willing to do something he just doesn't want to do.

Which Bible passage are you referring to here? Please forgive me if you already posted it - I just had trouble finding it in so many posts made today.

In reference to the OP here, what is your point in denigrating the Bible as it is commonly accepted? By what authority do you and your cohorts revamp the Biblical Canon into what you say it is? To me; nothing could signify a determined hatred of Seventh-day Adventists more than this. We are a people of the Bible - the whole Bible, all of which is God's Word. Your determination to dismantle the Bible into your own private interpretation shows your intentions.

The story of Paul and the prophet Agabus is found in Act. 21:7-14.

I am NOT denigrating the Bible; everything that is in the Bible is there for a reason, some is there for reasons that we may not like. And speaking of that, why should I accept something that is merely commonly accepted as truth? By who's authority should I do this? Who among you has the right to tell me what and in whom I should believe? Are you responsible for my salvation, or am I to work out my salvation with fear (of God) and trembling? Who put the biblical canon together and for what reason? And is that reason enough to make the claim that it is the infallible, inerrant, indisputable 'word of God'?

The reason that I ask these questions is the I am determined to find the truth, where ever and how ever I can. And just because you and others make unsubstantiated claims on the authority of the New Testament (the OT being confirmed by Jesus) does not mean that I must do the same or loose my soul.

Also, your saying that because I choose that which I will or won't believe to be true as confirming that I have hatred for the SDA church is absurd on it's face. The only thing I hate is when people try to force me to believe a lie as if it is the truth, just so I can claim to be a member of an exclusive religious club. I AM an enthusiastic SDA. I love my church, which is why it pains me no end when that church says that I can't belong because I choose to believe something different than the masses. Is there no longer any room in our church for the civil discussion of these issues, or must we all 'toe the line' and march in lock step? Remember, those that march with the masses are marching on the wide road that leads to destruction. I'm sorry if it irks you that I choose not to join you.

[Rondo]

The Great Controversy 1888, Page 508

Among professed Christians, and even among ministers of the gospel, there is heard scarcely a reference to Satan, except perhaps an incidental mention in the pulpit. They overlook the evidences of his continual activity and success; they neglect the many warnings of his subtlety; they seem to ignore his very existence.

While men are ignorant of his devices, this vigilant foe is upon their track every moment. He is intruding his presence in every department of the household, in every street of our cities, in the churches, in the national councils, in the courts of justice, perplexing, deceiving, seducing, everywhere ruining the souls and bodies of men, women, and children, breaking up families, sowing hatred, emulation, strife, sedition, murder. And the Christian world seem to regard these things as though God had appointed them, and they must exist.

Satan is continually seeking to overcome the people of God by breaking down the barriers which separate them from the world. Ancient Israel were enticed into sin when they ventured into forbidden association with the heathen. In a similar manner are modern Israel led astray. “The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” [2 Corinthians 4:4.] All who are not decided followers of Christ are servants of Satan. In the unregenerate heart there is love of sin, and a disposition to cherish and excuse it. In the renewed heart there is hatred of sin, and determined resistance against it. When Christians choose the society of the ungodly and unbelieving, they expose themselves to temptation. Satan conceals himself from view, and stealthily draws his deceptive covering over their eyes. They cannot see that such company is calculated to do them harm; and while all the time assimilating to the world in character, words, and actions, they are becoming more and more blinded.

John, this is the type of scare tactics that take confidence away from members of the church. Let me give you an example.

Here in St. Louis, the Mormons built a Italian marble Temple that I drive by frequently. Before they dedicated it, they allow nonMormons to tour, with foot covers on, of course. I was at that time attending a Presbyterian Church and some of the members were afraid to tour it. Why, because they were afraid they would be decieved. I wanted to see it to confirm what I was told goes on in one of their temples.

Christians that don't know other that what their own denomination teaches should as EGW says stay in their secluded environment. But those working the world, should be able to always give a reason for the hope that is with us. Each Christian should develop a critical mind to be able to spot truth or falsehood. EGW fans the flames of fear, rather than encouraging a strenghening of that Critical Mind.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I find Romans good in the NIV, although I would never recommend anything but the KJV for doctrinal study.

That's it. Use other translations for devotionals and for getting a fresh look at the context, but like you, I would only recommend literal translations for doctrinal study. I ususally use three or four along with the Greek NT. The KJV is always at the top for me, but I also often use the New American Standard, the Revised Standard, and the New King James. I'm not a "King James Only" but I do admire it and love to read it.

I stick with the KJV to be honest.

Only because if I am going to memorise scripture, one translation is about all I can cope with... :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Great Controversy 1888, Page 508

Among professed Christians, and even among ministers of the gospel, there is heard scarcely a reference to Satan, except perhaps an incidental mention in the pulpit. They overlook the evidences of his continual activity and success; they neglect the many warnings of his subtlety; they seem to ignore his very existence.

While men are ignorant of his devices, this vigilant foe is upon their track every moment. He is intruding his presence in every department of the household, in every street of our cities, in the churches, in the national councils, in the courts of justice, perplexing, deceiving, seducing, everywhere ruining the souls and bodies of men, women, and children, breaking up families, sowing hatred, emulation, strife, sedition, murder. And the Christian world seem to regard these things as though God had appointed them, and they must exist.

Satan is continually seeking to overcome the people of God by breaking down the barriers which separate them from the world. Ancient Israel were enticed into sin when they ventured into forbidden association with the heathen. In a similar manner are modern Israel led astray. “The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” [2 Corinthians 4:4.] All who are not decided followers of Christ are servants of Satan. In the unregenerate heart there is love of sin, and a disposition to cherish and excuse it. In the renewed heart there is hatred of sin, and determined resistance against it. When Christians choose the society of the ungodly and unbelieving, they expose themselves to temptation. Satan conceals himself from view, and stealthily draws his deceptive covering over their eyes. They cannot see that such company is calculated to do them harm; and while all the time assimilating to the world in character, words, and actions, they are becoming more and more blinded.

Any specific ideas on HOW the enemy is doing this with Adventists today?

I am going to start a new thread on the doctines of Babylon very soon.

I think it will be an enlightening discussion, that will deal with this issue. :-)

[Twilight]

The reason that I ask these questions is the I am determined to find the truth, where ever and how ever I can. And just because you and others make unsubstantiated claims on the authority of the New Testament (the OT being confirmed by Jesus) does not mean that I must do the same or loose my soul.

Also, your saying that because I choose that which I will or won't believe to be true as confirming that I have hatred for the SDA church is absurd on it's face. The only thing I hate is when people try to force me to believe a lie as if it is the truth, just so I can claim to be a member of an exclusive religious club. I AM an enthusiastic SDA. I love my church, which is why it pains me no end when that church says that I can't belong because I choose to believe something different than the masses. Is there no longer any room in our church for the civil discussion of these issues, or must we all 'toe the line' and march in lock step? Remember, those that march with the masses are marching on the wide road that leads to destruction. I'm sorry if it irks you that I choose not to join you.

What you have to remember MM, is you are making a very serious charge.

You are stating that Paul and Ellen White were inspired by Satan.

That the biblical canon is unacceptable.

No one has pushed you out of the church, you have stepped out.

You are not a Seventh Day Adventist, because you do not hold to the beliefs of SDA's.

You are something else now.

Sadly.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

The reason that I ask these questions is the I am determined to find the truth, where ever and how ever I can. And just because you and others make unsubstantiated claims on the authority of the New Testament (the OT being confirmed by Jesus) does not mean that I must do the same or loose my soul.

Also, your saying that because I choose that which I will or won't believe to be true as confirming that I have hatred for the SDA church is absurd on it's face. The only thing I hate is when people try to force me to believe a lie as if it is the truth, just so I can claim to be a member of an exclusive religious club. I AM an enthusiastic SDA. I love my church, which is why it pains me no end when that church says that I can't belong because I choose to believe something different than the masses. Is there no longer any room in our church for the civil discussion of these issues, or must we all 'toe the line' and march in lock step? Remember, those that march with the masses are marching on the wide road that leads to destruction. I'm sorry if it irks you that I choose not to join you.

What you have to remember MM, is you are making a very serious charge.

You are stating that Paul and Ellen White were inspired by Satan.

That the biblical canon is unacceptable.

No one has pushed you out of the church, you have stepped out.

You are not a Seventh Day Adventist, because you do not hold to the beliefs of SDA's.

You are something else now.

Sadly.

I repeat; why am I not an SDA? Just because you say so? I certainly did not give you the authority to make that determination on my behalf.

When Jesus walked on water do you remember where Peter was? He was with the rest of the disciples in a boat. While they were in that boat they all felt comfortable, sure that the boat would not sink. The boat is analogous to the church today. People are in the 'church' because they feel comfortable being with people of like belief. They don't have to think too hard, all they have to do is go to Sabbath School and Church, listen to the lesson and the sermon, and then go home feeling good that they did their duty for the Lord.

What did Jesus ask Peter to do? It was not to walk on the water. It was to GET OUT OF THE BOAT. And yes, Peter DID walk on water for a time. But then He got nervous; he was in untested waters and became uncertain of the outcome. So what did Peter do? Instead of continuing to look at Jesus he looked back at the place where he felt most comfortable and secure, the boat (church). And we all know what happened.

We all must make this same choice; whom are we to follow and look to for our security and truth. Jesus asks of us exactly the same thing that He asked Peter, to trust HIM and look to HIM for Truth. Most Christians believe intuitively that Jesus is in the boat with them, but this IS NOT true. Jesus is where Truth is, and sometimes we must be willing to leave the comfort and security of our well established understanding and step out of the boat to follow Jesus.

Stepping out of the boat does not take faith, because just as with Peter Jesus is always right there to take our hand. Frankly, it takes a lot of faith to believe in Paul and EGW, because what they say is confusing, even to established Biblical scholars. There is no confusion in the words and teachings of Jesus as HE gave them to His own disciples. THAT is why Jesus asks us to look to HIM and no one else. That is just what I do, and yet because of that I am castigated and ridiculed by those whom I have left in the boat. Is the true SDA church the boat, or is it where Jesus is? I think you know the answer to that question.

[John317]

Any specific ideas on HOW the enemy is doing this with Adventists today?

Yes, I do. Many examples may be seen on the Adventist Forum and even on this thread. But as we go forward in the discussion, I'm praying that these various ways will be pointed out, discussed, and acknowledged.

[John317]

The Great Controversy 1888, Page 508

Among professed Christians, and even among ministers of the gospel, there is heard scarcely a reference to Satan, except perhaps an incidental mention in the pulpit. They overlook the evidences of his continual activity and success; they neglect the many warnings of his subtlety; they seem to ignore his very existence.

While men are ignorant of his devices, this vigilant foe is upon their track every moment. He is intruding his presence in every department of the household, in every street of our cities, in the churches, in the national councils, in the courts of justice, perplexing, deceiving, seducing, everywhere ruining the souls and bodies of men, women, and children, breaking up families, sowing hatred, emulation, strife, sedition, murder. And the Christian world seem to regard these things as though God had appointed them, and they must exist.

Satan is continually seeking to overcome the people of God by breaking down the barriers which separate them from the world. Ancient Israel were enticed into sin when they ventured into forbidden association with the heathen. In a similar manner are modern Israel led astray. “The god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” [2 Corinthians 4:4.] All who are not decided followers of Christ are servants of Satan. In the unregenerate heart there is love of sin, and a disposition to cherish and excuse it. In the renewed heart there is hatred of sin, and determined resistance against it. When Christians choose the society of the ungodly and unbelieving, they expose themselves to temptation. Satan conceals himself from view, and stealthily draws his deceptive covering over their eyes. They cannot see that such company is calculated to do them harm; and while all the time assimilating to the world in character, words, and actions, they are becoming more and more blinded.

Originally Posted By: Rondo

John, this is the type of scare tactics that take confidence away from members of the church. Let me give you an example.

If the truth drives people out of the church, that's fine. But let the truth be told, and what Ellen White says in the above quote is absolutely true. it is the preaching and the teaching of the truth that causes the shaking. We don't do the church or God a favor to neglect the preaching of truth in order to keep people from leaving the church. That's doing harm to everyone and betraying God and the gospel.

[John317]

The story of Paul and the prophet Agabus is found in Act. 21:7-14.

Could you please respond directly to the points raised in post #407284 with regard to your earlier post about Agabus and Paul?

[John317]

....why should I accept something that is merely commonly accepted as truth?

You shouldn't and no one else should either.

But when it comes to the NT, no one is saying you should believe it merely because it is commonly accepted as truth.

If you believe it at all, you should believe it for valid reasons. And those valid reasons have been outlined and discussed before on this and other threads related to the topic.

We don't want to hijack the thread further by making it also a disussion about the canon.

[John317]

...I am going to start a new thread on the doctines of Babylon very soon.

I think it will be an enlightening discussion, that will deal with this issue. :-)

Great idea, Mark. What are the doctrines of spiritual Babylon?