Christ's human nature...

[Twilight]

What is your understanding of Christ's human nature?

Mark :-)

Can I request we stick to the bible as much as possible on this one?

As trying to "define" Ellen Whites understanding is much more difficult than comparing the Biblical view, because there are different authors that balance each other out in the Bible, whereas the SOP is much easier to "wrest" in my view.

And we should be able to show our views from the Bible and the Bible alone.

[Twilight]

I also think that sometimes we get lazy and want to use the SOP's statements in place of pure Bible study...

[John317]

Christ took our fallen nature. "Having taken our fallen nature, He showed what it might become" (3 SM 134).

Jesus came with the heredity of his ancestor David. Notice that this does not mean Christ sinned or that He participated in sin in any way. I believe both the Bible and the SOP support this view. For starters, see Romans 8: 3,4; DA 49, 117.

[John317]

This is true, and the SOP quotes should never take the place of Bible study.

[Twilight]

Christ took our fallen nature. "Having taken our fallen nature, He showed what it might become" (3 SM 134).

Jesus came with the heredity of his ancestor David. Notice that this does not mean Christ sinned or that He participated in sin in any way. I believe both the Bible and the SOP support this view. For starters, see Romans 8: 3,4; DA 49, 117.

Are you sure you meant Romans 8:3,4 John317?

[John317]

Yes, here's the verse I had in mind:

Romans 8:3-4

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4] in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

[Twilight]

This is true, and the SOP quotes should never take the place of Bible study.

The more I think about it, the more I do think that it is laziness sometimes.

Usually with this attitude:

"I believe this, SOP agrees, so I am right."

Rather than:

"I believe the Bible teaches this, which is also reflected in the SOP."

But back topic...

[Twilight]

Yes, here's the verse I had in mind:

Romans 8:3-4

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4] in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Some people argue that "likeness" in this verse means that He was not "quite the same".

What are your thoughts on this John317?

[John317]

Some people argue that "likeness" in this verse means that He was not "quite the same".

What are your thoughts on this John317?

On the use of the word "likeness," look at Phil. 2: 7--

but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

The question here is, does the word "likeness" mean Jesus was like men or unlike men? Is the verse saying that Jesus was not really a man?

It seems clear to me that "likeness" here means that Jesus was truly human. Therefore I take the use of "likeness" in Hebrews 8: 3 to mean that Jesus was like we are in that He assumed sinful flesh when He came to live among us just as all all humanity is born with sinful flesh. He did not assume the nature of sinless Adam.

Consider Hebrews 2: 14-17 (ESV)--

Quote:

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things [RSV,"nature"], that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, [15] and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. [16] For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. [17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

I would be interested to know what others have to say about these verses or any others related to the topic.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Some people argue that "likeness" in this verse means that He was not "quite the same".

What are your thoughts on this John317?

On the use of the word "likeness," look at Phil. 2: 7--

but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

The question here is, does the word "likeness" mean Jesus was like men or unlike men? Is the verse saying that Jesus was not really a man?

It seems clear to me that "likeness" here means that Jesus was truly human. Therefore I take the use of "likeness" in Hebrews 8: 3 to mean that Jesus was like we are in that He assumed sinful flesh when He came to live among us just as all all humanity is born with sinful flesh. He did not assume the nature of sinless Adam.

Consider Hebrews 2: 14-17 (ESV)--

Quote:

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things [RSV,"nature"], that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, [15] and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. [16] For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. [17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

[Twilight]

Here are all the texts for the word "likeness":

Old Testament:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 5:1 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Exd 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Deu 4:16 Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

Deu 4:17 The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

Deu 4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Deu 4:23 Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee.

Deu 4:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt [yourselves], and make a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:

Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:

Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Isa 40:18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

Eze 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof [came] the likeness of four living creatures. And this [was] their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Eze 1:13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance [was] like burning coals of fire, [and] like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

Eze 1:16 The appearance of the wheels and their work [was] like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work [was] as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

Eze 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature [was] as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

Eze 1:26 And above the firmament that [was] over their heads [was] the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne [was] the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.

Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so [was] the appearance of the brightness round about. This [was] the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw [it], I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

Eze 8:2 Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber.

Eze 10:1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

Eze 10:10 And [as for] their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.

Eze 10:21 Every one had four faces apiece, and every one four wings; and the likeness of the hands of a man [was] under their wings.

Eze 10:22 And the likeness of their faces [was] the same faces which I saw by the river of Chebar, their appearances and themselves: they went every one straight forward.

New Testament:

Act 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

[John317]

Some people argue that "likeness" in this verse means that He was not "quite the same".

I'm not aguing that Jesus is exactly the same as I am, nor am I saying He was born with exactly the same nature that I was born with. He was born much as we are reborn. The power of the Holy Spirit was directing His life from the very first moment of conception.

Here's the crux of the issue: why was Jesus obedient to His Father? Was it because of his unique birth or nature? Or was His obedience to God due to the guidance of, and submission to, the Holy Spirit? If it was due to His unique birth, then he cannot be our example with regard to overcoming sin and living a rightous life before God. On the other hand, if His obedience to God's commandments was on account of the Holy Spirit's power in His life, then we can also choose to have that same Spirit's control of our own lives just as Christ chose to have it in His.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Some people argue that "likeness" in this verse means that He was not "quite the same".

I'm not aguing that Jesus is exactly the same as I am, nor am I saying He was born with exactly the same nature that I was born with. He was born much as we are reborn. The power of the Holy Spirit was directing His life from the very first moment of conception.

[pnattmbtc]

A problem that comes up, I think, is that the word "nature" is ambiguous. Most of the pioneers who wrote on the subject (interesting, with the notable except of EGW), predominantly used the phrase "sinful flesh." I think Jesus Christ took the same sinful flesh that we have -- no difference at all -- and the texts that John317 mentioned, such as Hebrews 2:14-17, and Romans 8:3,4, are dealing with this. That is, Hebrews says that as the children partake of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise took part of the same. The same what? The same flesh and blood.

Jesus Christ had the same flesh that we have, and had to face the same obstacles common to that flesh that we have to face.

This doesn't have to do with being reborn, because the flesh doesn't change when one is reborn.

[pnattmbtc]

One of the difficulties I have in discussing this subject is that people have very different ideas about what is being talked about. What I have in mind is that which is passed to us genetically, which is fixed (doesn't change when we are converted). E.g., we have genetic predispositions to certain behaviors, which Jesus also had, by way of His genetics, but as Jesus overcame by the power of God as He submitted His will to His Father's, so we may overcome as well.

[doug yowell]

Here's the crux of the issue: why was Jesus obedient to His Father? Was it because of his unique birth or nature? Or was His obedience to God due to the guidance of, and submission to, the Holy Spirit? If it was due to His unique birth, then he cannot be our example with regard to overcoming sin and living a rightous life before God. On the other hand, if His obedience to God's commandments was on account of the Holy Spirit's power in His life, then we can also choose to have that same Spirit's control of our own lives just as Christ chose to have it in His.

Very good points.

I do not think that "birth" would qualify Him to be our substitute, if that birth gave Him an advantage.

But the idea that He came with our nature, but born again and totally in submission to the Holy Spirit, I totally agree with.

Because He had to be our example.

Our example when WE are born again...

Our example for us to follow. :-)

Mark

I would think that being born born again would qualify Him as a substitute,but not with an advantage.This alone would make His spiritual nature different than the one we come into the world with,right? Didn't John say,"Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world"? And this when He as yet had not yet begun His ministry.Wasn't the Lamb required to be "without blemish"?

[Gerr]

Here is my understanding as I posted in another thread:

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

One of the reasons you find this hard to believe Gerry, is because you don't believe that Jesus truly took on our sinful nature. But He did. The Bible and the SoP both declare it. So He has already acomplished what this group of people will, with nothing more than the same power that is available to us.

Gerry's answer:

If by "Jesus truly took on our sinful nature" you mean that He was born with an inclination or propensity to commit sin, NO, I definitely do not believe it. Consider what the Bible says about Him.

1. Lk 1:32 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High."

2. Lk 1:35 “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."

He was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit, and was called "HOLY" from conception. NO human being can claim this kind of origin.

3. Second Adam: "....Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." Rom 5:14. " Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit." 1 Cor 15:45.

Which Adam? BEFORE or AFTER THE FALL? From a moral standpoint Christ was the Second Adam BEFORE the fall. BODILY-WISE, He was the second Adam AFTER the fall. Evidence?

1. Look at # 1 & 2 again. He was holy from the moment of conception. Conceived by the power of the HOLY Spirit. It can't be otherwise.

2. "Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, he began where the first Adam began. Willingly he passed over the ground where Adam fell, and redeemed Adam’s failure." {YI, June 2, 1898 par. 1}

3. "Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden."

Avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, “Behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”

These words do not refer to any human being, except to the Son of the infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called “that holy thing.” It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the Rock Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity.

Nichol, Francis D.: The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 5. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1978; 2002, S. 1128

In what contrast is the second Adam as He entered the gloomy wilderness to cope with Satan singlehanded! Since the Fall the race had been decreasing in size and physical strength, and sinking lower in the scale of moral worth, up to the period of Christ’s advent to the earth. And in order to elevate fallen man, Christ must reach him where he was. He took human nature, and bore the infirmities and degeneracy of the race. He, who knew no sin, became sin for us. He humiliated Himself to the lowest depths of human woe, that He might be qualified to reach man, and bring him up from the degradation in which sin had plunged him. {1SM 268.2}

White, Ellen Gould: Selected Messages From the Writings of Ellen G. White, Book 1; Selected Messages, Book 1. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1958; 2002, S. 268

[skyblue888]

Pnatt, I second what you said. And that is why it is written, "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind" and not "by the renewing of your flesh."

The flesh remains the same in the new birth. Jesus had the same flesh and blood that you and I have. He inherited sinful tendencies the same way we do but He overcame them all by the power of the Holy Spirit being in subjection to God.

In his humanity, Jesus was born under the great law of heredity.

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Gerry's post is an example of what I mentioned. He writes:

Quote:

Which Adam? BEFORE or AFTER THE FALL? From a moral standpoint Christ was the Second Adam BEFORE the fall. BODILY-WISE, He was the second Adam AFTER the fall. Evidence?

This seems to be sort of a red herring, since nobody suggests that from a moral standpoint Christ was not perfect. He writes "BODILY-WISE, He was the second Adam AFTER the fall," which, of course, is true, and no one disputes.

So wherein lies the dispute? This is a good question! I think one of the key areas of dispute is whether Christ could be tempted inwardly.

[Gerr]

Gerry's reply, part 2:

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus didn't have an inclination or propensity to commit sin,

Gerry:

John, once you admit that He did NOT have PROPENSITY to sin, then He did not have our sinful nature in its totality. Of the sinful human nature Paul had this to say:

"I am of the flesh, sold under sin." Rom 7:14

"For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate." 7:15

"So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me." 7:17-20

"but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members." 7:23 All quotes from ESV.

When a child is born, the law of sin is already written and operative in his "members". Left to itself, that child will do sinful things even without the devils' prompting. He ALREADY has that propensity/inclination. NOT SO WITH CHRIST!I would be surprised if you thought that sin was already dwelling in Christ's "members" when He was born.

but I believe the SOP does teach that He took our sinful nature, that is, The Son of God assumed the human nature of Adam that he had after the Fall and not the nature Adam had before the Fall.

Gerry:

Please look at the SOP quote I gave in the previous post. Physically, Christ took the post-fall nature of Adam, but morally, He took the pre-lapsarian nature of Adam.

Originally Posted By: John

I believe the difference between Jesus and everyone else is that He was born filled with the Holy Spirit, so He never had to be "born again" like we must. It also means that Jesus never had to resist and overcome evil habits. The "propensity" to sin, as Ellen White uses the term, comes from the practice of sin, and of course Jesus never sinned and therefore didn't have the propensity.

Gerry:

Christ was not only born full of the Holy Spirit, but so was John the Baptist. What sets Him apart from every other human being is that He was CONCEIVED of the Holy Spirit. No human can claim that. Half of His genes (?) were of the Holy Spirit. I don't for one moment believe that EGW understood propensity to mean practised sin; she knew it meant inclination or tendency to sin.

[Gerr]

No red herring. And here's the dispute. Was Jesus born with a SINFUL NATURE or not?

[skyblue888]

Cannot true Christian parents pray for their offsprings to be born again from their mother's womb?

sky

[pnattmbtc]

Christ was not only born full of the Holy Spirit, but so was John the Baptist. What sets Him apart from every other human being is that He was CONCEIVED of the Holy Spirit. No human can claim that. Half of His genes (?) were of the Holy Spirit.

[skyblue888]

pnatt, sinful nature and sinful flesh are the same to me.

But Christ did not possess the carnal mind because he never yielded to sin, not even in thought. But we have and this is why we have a carnal mind. But as we become one with Christ our carnal mind is subdued.

"Every truly converted soul will carry the unmistakable marks that the carnal mind is subdued." 1 T 163.

"Constant war against the carnal mind must be maintained." 2 T 479.

sky

[Gerr]

I'm not aguing that Jesus is exactly the same as I am, nor am I saying He was born with exactly the same nature that I was born with. He was born much as we are reborn. The power of the Holy Spirit was directing His life from the very first moment of conception.

There's a BIG difference. When a sinner is reborn, he is still imprisoned in the SAME body every fiber of which craves for unlawful things! Christ did NOT have a body that had an inclination/propensity/craving to sin.

Quote:

Here's the crux of the issue: why was Jesus obedient to His Father? Was it because of his unique birth or nature? Or was His obedience to God due to the guidance of, and submission to, the Holy Spirit?

To me, what nature He had means everything. If He had EXACTLY the same nature as I have, then there is no reason why through the power of the HS I can't do what He did and save myself!

Quote:

If it was due to His unique birth, then he cannot be our example with regard to overcoming sin and living a rightous life before God. On the other hand, if His obedience to God's commandments was on account of the Holy Spirit's power in His life, then we can also choose to have that same Spirit's control of our own lives just as Christ chose to have it in His.

As for His total dependence on God for His holy life, I totally agree with you.