Christ's human nature...

[John317]

... God said He would kill them on the very day they ate of that particular tree.

Please quote and give reference for this.

Does John 3: 16 say that God so loved the world that He executed his own son so that we might not perish but have everlasting life?

Again, did Jesus cry, "My God, why are you executing me"? No. Instead Jesus asked why God was abandoning Him, not killing Him.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

... God said He would kill them on the very day they ate of that particular tree.

Please quote and give reference for this.

Does John 3: 16 say that God so loved the world that He executed his own son so that we might not perish but have everlasting life?

Again, did Jesus cry, "My God, why are you executing me"? No. Instead Jesus asked why God was abandoning Him, not killing Him.

John,

You are making assumptions again based on common Christian belief. You assume that When Jesus said that "God gave His Son . . ." that this meant "to die". The text does not say "God gave His only begotten Son do die for the world". Here is the text:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.  John 3:16.

Whoever BELIEVES . . . OK, believes in what? That Jesus came to die for our sins? The text doesn't say that. Believes What? Believes in the Words of Jesus Christ.

Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” John 18:37.

Here Jesus tells us exactly what He came to do.-"to bear witness to the Truth. Time and time again Jesus refers to HIS WORDS as being Truth and Life.

I STRONGLY suggest that you listen to today's Bible On Trial, because we talk about this very thing, and cite numerous text references to back this up. Here is the link to our show page. You can download our programs to your MP-3 player: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/sot.

[John317]

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.  John 3:16.

Whoever BELIEVES . . . OK, believes in what? That Jesus came to die for our sins? The text doesn't say that. Believes What? Believes in the Words of Jesus Christ.

Yes, certainly believes in His words, but more than this, believes in who Jesus Christ is: the Lord and Savior.

John 1:12-13

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [13] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 8:24

I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am [he] you will die in your sins.

John 10:38

but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

[Guest]

Yep

[John317]

...You are making assumptions again based on common Christian belief. You assume that When Jesus said that "God gave His Son . . ." that this meant "to die". The text does not say "God gave His only begotten Son do die for the world". Here is the text:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.  John 3:16.

Certainly "giving" His only Son for us included giving Him up to die. Both God and Christ new that was the plan.

Jesus was born to die. When He became flesh, it was for the purpose of dying for the human race. I believe you'll agree with me that if Christ had not died, He wouldn't have accomplished what He came here to do.

[Sonny]

Again, did Jesus cry, "My God, why are you executing me"? No. Instead Jesus asked why God was abandoning Him, not killing Him.

Good point.

[wayfinder]

God created Adam mortal. Adam was made of the dust of the ground and God breathed into his nostriles the breath of life and Adam became a living being. God planted a garden an in it placed two trees, the tree of life and the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil. If Adam were not created mortal he would not need the tree of life, in fact there would not be any use or need for the tree of life if he were immortal. There is only one use for the tree of life and that is, when a mortal eats from it they will not die. As long as they have access to the tree of life they will never die. The other tree placed in the garden, besides the many other nameless ones, was the forbidden tree. To eat from this tree one must disobey God; therefore one would learn righteousness was obeying God and unrighteousness was disobeying God. In this case the penalty for disobeying God was to be put to death. A penalty is payment for a crime, a crime is breaking the law. Adam and Eve broke the law against eating of the forbidden tree. They did not start to die, because a mortal starts to die at berth, in the sense that they are mortal. Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden so they would not have access to the tree of life and live forever. Denying then access to the tree of life they eventually died of old age, because they were mortal. The Son of God came to earth as flesh and blood. He obeyed God's commands and was put to death by God, therefore He paid a debt that He did not owe. This payment was placed in trust to be used for those who owed this debt and the only way to pay it was to be executed by God, which is the second death. If a mortal pays this debt themself, they cannot be resurrected because the penalty requires an execution and no resurrection. When Adam and Eve died they did not pay the penalty for eating of the forbidden tree, they died because they were mortal beings and could not eat from the tree of life.

Genesis 2:7 And God formed the man [of] dust of the earth, and breathed upon his face the breath of life, and the man became a living soul. 8 And God planted a garden eastward in Edem, and placed there the man whom he had formed. 9 And God made to spring up also out of the earth every tree beautiful to the eye and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of learning the knowledge of good and evil.

15 And the Lord God took the man whom he had formed, and placed him in the garden of Delight, to cultivate and keep it.

16 And the Lord God gave a charge to Adam, saying, Of every tree which is in the garden thou mayest freely eat, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil-- of it ye shall not eat, but in whatsoever day ye eat of it, ye shall surely die.

Genesis3:22 And God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and [so] he shall live forever-- 23 So the Lord God sent him forth out of the garden of Delight to cultivate the ground out of which he was taken. 24 And he cast out Adam and caused him to dwell over against the garden of Delight, and stationed the cherubs and the fiery sword that turns about to keep the way of the tree of life.

Just because you may not have heard it this way before, does not automatically make it wrong.

[John317]

...Job is comparing that which is born of a woman with unrighteousness:

"someone born from a woman, that he could be righteous?"

So my take is that you can't be born of a woman and be righteous simultaneously. Job doesn't state you are righteous at birth until you sin.

But wasn't Job a righteous and upright man? That is God's testimony of him, as well as the writer's testimony, in the very first chapter. While Job has human faults--- he after all does confess that he has sinned---yet he has integrity toward God, and that is really the meaning of the word used to describe Job in the first verses of the book. The word there does not mean "sinless" or "absolutely perfect."

[John317]

Adam and Eve were created "conditionally immortal." It just means that if they fulfilled the conditions set by God-- obedience to Him-- they would never die. So it is true that God never intended them to die, and God made an easy way for them to keep living forever.

Notice that God did not starve them during a test concerning the tree. But the tree was merely one among many thousands, perhasp millions, of trees with delicious fruit on them. I can't see how any test could be easier than that.

It is kind of like God testing us on the Sabbath. We have 6 days for ourselves, and all God is asking for is to give Him one day.

[Musicman1228]

John,

Where does Scripture say 'conditional immortality' with respect to Adam and Eve. There is no evidence that any of the other animals created by God were immortal, just as there is no evidence that Adam and Eve were immortal. This is mere speculation on you part. And even though I enjoy a good story now and then that does not mean that I am going to invent something out of whole cloth that is not even mentioned in Scripture.

Now I do believe that you found this idea in the writings of EGW, and to you that is proof enough. Unfortunately she is not a credible witness for some of us.

My proof that Wafinder's understanding is correct lays in the fact that when God withdrew His presence from His Son His Son died. God the Father and God the Son were so connected and unified that this made Jesus' death inevitable. When God withdrew Himself from His Son Jesus became unable to sustain His body (immortal though it was) and Jesus died. Jesus death was not caused by the torture or wounds He sustained in His treatment under the Romans. It was not because Jesus 'became sin' for us, taking our sins upon Himself thus dying from the weight of sin. That is patently absurd because Jesus died as the Passover Lamb and thus had to be blameless and completely without sin before God. If Jesus had ANY sin in Him in any form and from any source He could not have qualified to be the Passover Lamb and purchase a Kingdom and Priests for God out of the world (Rev.5:9-10). Jesus could not possibly have had any DNA from Mary in Him because she contained sin in her down to her very DNA. Jesus was the Holy One of the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is why He is called the Son of God. No heavenly being can have sin in them, which was why Jesus cast Satan and His demons off of Heaven after Jesus was resurrected (ref. Rev.12). There was no longer a place found in Heaven for Satan because he had sin in him. This is why Satan was cast down to earth, because that is the only place in the universe where there is still sin. Also, If Jesus had died with sin in Him then all would be lost for all of humanity, because only a perfect sacrifice who has no sin in Him and who was innocent of all charges before the court, could be resurrected from the grave, because if you die with sin in you then you are dead forever. The reason that Jesus died the second death and could come back from the grave is simply because there was never any sin in Him, ever.

[wayfinder]

John317, You are right, in that you say Adam and Eve were "conditionally immortal", the condition was the tree of life. As long as Adam and Eve had access to the tree of life they would live forever, when they disobeyed God they were cast out of the garden so they would not have access to the tree of life and live forever. Adam and Eve died, the sleep death, because they were flesh and blood (mortal) beings. There are two types of death, the sleep death and the second death. The sleep death is what happens to the living when they "die". The second death takes place shortly after the second resurrection, the resurection of the dead. The "dead" are resurrected to be put to death by their Creator, this is the second death.

Genesis 2:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil ; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "-

23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken

[Guest]

MM, are you a credible witness? You are asking people to take your word over and above someone who was shown future events, and told about them before they happened. Also over and above most of what was written in the New Testament.

Can you see the future? Do you know if there will ever be another fire in Battle Creek? Can you tell us when the next big earthquake will hit San Fransisco, or Loma Linda, or anywhere? Can you tell us exactly what Satan's future plans are? She foretold all this and much more with perfect accuracy. She even saw that people such as yourself and wayfinder would come along and try to change, and do damage to the true advent message. That doesn't mean your intentions are bad necessarily.

Whenever someone discards large portions of the Bible as their guide, and Ellen White, who passed the tests of a true prophet in every regard, it doesn't exactly add more credibility to their words when they start making outlandish claims that are not in the Bible.

The hoops that you are willing to jump through in order to believe that the Holy Spirit is a woman, (even though the Bible is very plain about what a woman in prophecy stands for) and many other things, along with believing that most of the NT writers were not inspired by God, but Satan, does not add credibilty to your words. Just the opposite in fact.

Basically what you're doing is telling people that the Bible and EGW are not inspired by God, but that YOU are. You would have to be in order for your words to ring true while the Bible and Ellen White's words are false.

Quote:

Chapter 0ne

Lightning from the Earth

The tower bell of Old St. Mary's on California Street rang out five times on the still, cool air. It promised to be another beautiful day for San Francisco; there was no fog that morning and the streets were quiet.

The dance halls at the Barbary Coast and the houses of ill fame on Pacific Street had closed shop for the night, as a few drunken stragglers made their way home. A city, forgetting its sins, was beginning to arise.

It was Wednesday, April 18, 1906; at 5:08 the streetlights dimmed and went out. A few cable cars and overhead trolleys had already left the streetcar barns to begin a new day.

At 5:12, Police Sergeant Jesse Cook stopped at the corner of Washington and Davis to chat with Al Levy, a young worker in the fresh produce district that stood two blocks back of the waterfront.

The clocks on the tower of the Ferry Building said that it was 5:15--they were running a little fast that morning. But it would be months before they would run again.

For at that instant the earthquake struck.

Leaping out of the sea at seven thousand miles an hour, like some gigantic animal, it first tore out the Point Arena Lighthouse, ninety miles north of San Francisco. And then it sprang southward.

Moving rapidly, it unsheathed its bolts of earthen lightning—and sent them into the City by the Bay.

The animals sensed it first, as the horses shifted and whinnied. Jesse Cook, later to become police commissioner, heard behind him a deep rumbling. It was strangely distant. "Deep and terrible," he later called it. Turning, he looked up the hill of Washington Street—and saw it coming toward him.

"The whole street was undulating. It was as if the waves of the ocean were coming toward me, and billowing as they came." Packing more power than all the explosives of World War II, the quake hit the city in full force. Compression waves flowed beneath streets, buildings, and people. Earthwaves, two and three feet high, rolled in on the city.

In the next moment, Cook saw both men and animals crushed beneath falling brick walls.

Over on Market street, the business hub of the city, a man ran into the middle of the street: " 'Keep to the middle of the street, Mac!' I shouted to one of my friends. . I was thrown prone on my back and the pavement pulsated like a living thing. Around me the huge buildings, looming up more terrible because of the queer dance they were performing, wobbled and veered. Crash followed crash and resounded on all sides. Screeches rent the air as terrified humanity streamed out into the open in an agony of despair."

The shock only lasted 65 to 75 seconds—but it seemed an eternity. The dance of death toppled towers and chimneys, crumpled rows of wood frame houses, threw cornices and walls into the streets, sunk buildings into the ground, twisted steel rails, bridges and pipelines.

The deafening roar produced by the quake was intense. John B. Farish, a mining engineer in town on business, awoke in the St. Francis Hotel. "I was awakened by a loud rumbling noise. . [and] a concussion, similar to that caused by the nearby explosion of a huge blast, shook the building to its foundations. .And then began a series of the liveliest motions imaginable, . . followed by tremendous crashes as the cornices of adjoining buildings and chimneys tottered to the ground.' "

Within seventeen minutes, nearly fifty fires were reported in the downtown area. Fire engines rushed to answer the calls but found that the water mains were broken. They stared at their hoses. The resulting conflagration burned down much of the city.

Like Port Royal in Jamaica, that wicked haunt of pirates and slave-dealers, which was hit by a powerful earthquake in 1692, San Francisco had been struck down. Port Royal slid into the sea; San Francisco burned.

Shortly thereafter, a small lady was taken by carriage through the city whose destruction she had agonized over. For she had predicted it. With tear-dimmed eyes she viewed firsthand the results of warnings given earlier.

"Not long hence these cities will suffer under the judgments of God. San Francisco and Oakland are becoming as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Lord will visit them in wrath." —Manuscript 114, 1902.

Again she had warned:

"I am bidden to declare the message that cities full of transgression, and sinful in the extreme, will be destroyed by earthquakes, by fire, by flood. All the world will be warned that there is a God who will display His authority."—Manuscript 35, 1906.

Driving amid the stifling stench of the destruction, she gazed in shock at the terrible judgment. It was but two days before this devastating disaster that, she saw in a night vision the quake and the carnage that now lay spread out before her.

"There passed before me a most wonderful [awesome] representation. During the vision of the night, I stood on an eminence from which I could see houses shaken like a reed in the wind. Buildings; great and small, were falling to the ground. Pleasure resorts, theaters, hotels, and the homes of the wealthy were shaken and shattered. Many lives were blotted out of existence, and the air was filled with the shrieks of the injured and the terrified.

"The destroying angels of God were at work. One touch, and buildings so thoroughly constructed that men regarded them as secure against every danger quickly became heaps of rubbish. There was no assurance of safety in anyplace. I did not feel in any special peril but the awfulness of the scenes that passed before me I cannot find words to describe. It seemed the forbearance of God was exhausted, and the judgment day had come.

"Terrible as was the presentation that passed before me; that which impressed itself most vividly upon my mind was the instruction given in connection with it.

"The angel that stood by my side declared that God's supreme rulership, and the sacredness of His law must be revealed to those who persistently refused to render obedience to the King of kings. Those who choose to remain disloyal, must be visited in mercy with judgments, in order, that, if possible, they may be aroused to a realization of the sinfulness of their course."—Manuscript dated April 16, 1906 (Letter 137, 1906, in Testimonies, Volume 9, page 92).

Awakening from the above vision, she turned on the light. It was 1:00 a.m., Monday, April 16. Four years earlier, in 1902, she had first predicted the devastation of San Francisco. Within 53 hours it was to take place."

490 city blocks were destroyed; 256,000 were left homeless. Mercifully, only 498 died. Property was destroyed at the rate of one million dollars every ten minutes by the earthquake and fire following it, Which burned at times with blast furnace heat, ranging up to 20000 F. Yet she later warned of sill more destruction in the future upon these and other wicked cities.

"The light given me is that the wickedness in the cities of San Francisco and Oakland is beyond all imagination. God's wrath is upon many of the inhabitants of these cities." Manuscript 25,1908.

"'These things make me feel very solemn, because I know that the judgment day is right upon us. The judgments that have already come are a warning, but not the finishing, of the punishment that will come on wicked cities." –Letter 154, 1906.

"I feel sure that San Francisco and Oakland will again be visited with the judgments of God."—Letter 2, 1909.

Seismology—the study of earthquakes —was yet in its infancy. But warnings given then, are recognized today by leading scientists as facts to be fulfilled again along the San Andreas Fault.

When a prophet speaks, it comes to pass.

http://www.bible-sabbath.com/Prophet%20of%20the%20End/prophet_of_end.htm

Ok,

[shadow]

Are you a credible witness, Richard?

"Since the San Francisco earthquake, many rumors have been current regarding statements I have made. Some have reported that while in Los Angeles, I claimed that I had predicted the San Francisco earthquake and fire and that Los Angeles would be the next city to suffer. THIS IS NOT TRUE. THE MORNING AFTER THE EARTHQUAKE, I SAID NO MORE THAN THAT THE EARTHQUAKES WILL COME, THE FLOODS WILL COME and that the Lord's message to us is that we shall not establish ourselves in the wicked cities. Life Sketches p. 411.

You will have to give us another example of Ellen White's "perfect accuracy".

[Musicman1228]

Richard said, "MM, are you a credible witness? You are asking people to take your word over and above someone who was shown future events, and told about them before they happened. Also over and above most of what was written in the New Testament."

There you go again, Richard, twisting what you think I said into what your prejudice needs me to say.

I have never claimed to be a credible witness. I have only and always pointed to the most credible witness there is, Jesus Christ, and what HE said. I have NEVER asked people to take my word for ANYTHING. What I have asked is that people look at what Jesus said and compare that with what ANYONE else says on any subject, from salvation and sanctification to future events, and then make an INFORMED judgement as to what is true and what isn't.

In addition to being the Only Son of God Jesus Christ is THE TRUE PROPHET OF GOD. And this is not because God gave Him visions or dreams. It does not take much for Satan to mimic Jesus by giving people visions and dreams. This has happened any number of time throughout the ages. The thing that puts Jesus in a totally different category than these 'prophets' is that there is NO POSSIBLE WAY for Satan to intercept any communication between the Father and His Son. The connection between the Father and the Son is so secure there is not even the remotest possibility that Satan could interfere, therefore we can be absolutely sure that what Jesus saya is the way it was, is now, or will be.

You are the one that wants people to believe that E.G.White and Paul are also true prophets of God, and that they should be looked upon with the same authority as has Jesus Christ. You want them to take YOUR word that EGW and Paul are the real deal, and yet you will not do the one thing that would prove this one way or the other, and that is to honestly compare His words with theirs and see if there are any differences; and this includes prophecy.

The reason I completely trust the Revelation is that Jesus and John had a PERSONAL connection in the real world, and Jesus used this connection to give John information that only a very few at the appointed time of the end would understand.

The reason I trust the prophecies in Daniel is that up until now and without exception EVERYTHING that is in those prophecies has come true.

The information in the prophecies of Jesus Christ (Matt. and John), Daniel, and Revelation will give those with a humble heart everything they need to know to be prepared for the events of the time of the end. Anything else from anyone else, whether living or dead, is whitewash and window dressing, and is completely unnecessary in finding truth in prophecy or anything else.

Don't believe a single thing I say without checking and verifying that information yourself. You can, of course, simply dismiss what I point to in the words of Jesus and in the prophecies as the ravings of a lunatic. It is an easy way to lay aside a pesky problem by saying, "They are nuts, don't listen to them". Then again, what if I and Wayfinder are correct? God sometimes sends truth to the world in the most innocuous and unassuming forms.