2 Tenets of Atheism

[cardw]

I suspect if we were to do a simple tally, the Communists of the 20th century would 'win' in terms of numbers of deaths, simply because of far greater world population. There probably weren't 20 million people in total in the Europe of Luther's time. Some kind of proportional calculation would make more sense... but this bandying of human lives to make rhetorical points is distasteful in itself. There are better grounds on which to make the case.

I think if we took any individual death toll the communists would be among the highest. 20 million Germans died in WWII along with 1 million Americans and 1 million British and 19 million Russians.

I think when we total the number of deaths in the name of Christianity this number has been estimated close to 80 million. And if we include in the name of religion of all kinds that number swells.

I think what atheism is saying today that ideology of any kind is harmful when it is used to justify violence. When we use violence to survive that is a far different problem. It is one that can be solved because as soon as survival is assured then the need for violence is gone.

Ideologies sustain violence for things we make up in our minds. Death is dealt out because of illusions and misinformation.

[John317]

I think what atheism is saying today that ideology of any kind is harmful when it is used to justify violence.

Tell that to the communists in North Korea. The reason North Korea is doing what's its doing now is due to its atheistic, communist ideology. It could very well lead to millions being killed by nuclear war there.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I think what atheism is saying today that ideology of any kind is harmful when it is used to justify violence.

Tell that to the communists in North Korea. The reason North Korea is doing what's its doing now is due to its atheistic, communist ideology. It could very well lead to millions being killed by nuclear war there.

Are you suggesting that atheists support such an ideology expressed in their form of communism?

You need to provide evidence of that claim.

[Bravus]

The issue in North Korea is totalitarian dictatorship, not communism. And certainly not atheism. The apotheosis of the Kim dynasty is the proof.

[John317]

Are you suggesting that atheists support such an ideology expressed in their form of communism?

Are you suggesting that the communists are not atheists?

Why do you think people are not free to teach about God in North Korea?

No one is saying that all atheists support the communists. But it is true that all of the North Korean communists are militant atheists, and it is no mere coincidence.

Wherever you see a communist government, you will find government attempting to discourage or prohibit religion in general and Christianity in particular.

Is there freedom of religion in communist China, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea? Was there such freedom in the Soviet Union or in the countries it dominated before 1990?

Is this pattern mere coicidence in your thinking?

[John317]

The issue in North Korea is totalitarian dictatorship, not communism. And certainly not atheism. The apotheosis of the Kim dynasty is the proof.

Do you believe that because people are forced to obey a communist dictator, it means they are not atheists?

Communism, as we see it practiced in North Korea, is a counterfeit religious system, but that doesn't mean they are theists. Not all religion teaches belief in the supernatual or in God. Therefore the mere fact that the Kim dynasty demands absolute obedience to the leader doesn't mean they are not atheists.

Why is North Korea a totalitarian dictator? Do you see it as completely unrelated to the fact that they are communists?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Are you suggesting that atheists support such an ideology expressed in their form of communism?

Are you suggesting that the communists are not atheists?

[LifeHiscost]

The Adventists who participated in the Rwandan massacre also come to mind.

At one time Lucifer was a servant of Almighty God. He became the devil as a result of his unrepentant behavior. No longer could he be described as a servant of God. Neither can you describe the persons who contributed to the Rewandan massacre as Adventists, unless it would be that just a knowledge of the coming advent of Christ makes one an Adventist.

But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."2 Corinthians 11:14 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Ideologies sustain violence for things we make up in our minds. Death is dealt out because of illusions and misinformation.

Individuals that deal death, no matter what their profession, are not Christians unless the word no longer means a follower of Jesus.

"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."John 10:10 NKJV

"Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. Therefore, If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink;

For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”"Romans 12:19-21 NKJV

"Dear friends, never take revenge. Leave that to the righteous anger of God. For the Scriptures say,

“I will take revenge;

I will pay them back,”

says the Lord.

Instead,

“If your enemies are hungry, feed them.

If they are thirsty, give them something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap

burning coals of shame on their heads.”

Don’t let evil conquer you, but conquer evil by doing good."Romans 12:19-21 NLT

God blesses!

[Bravus]

At one time Lucifer was a servant of Almighty God. He became the devil as a result of his unrepentant behavior. No longer could he be described as a servant of God. Neither can you describe the persons who contributed to the Rewandan massacre as Adventists, unless it would be that just a knowledge of the coming advent of Christ makes one an Adventist.

We've been through this one before too. You say that Christians who commit atrocities are 'not really Christians' and I'll say that atheists who commit atrocities are 'not really atheists'.

As I indicated earlier, I'd be happy to leave it there: the argument from the actions of individuals is not a strong argument at the best of times.

[olger]

Unbelievable

g

[Tom Wetmore]

Does that make you an unbeliever?

[cardw]

Does that make you an unbeliever?

LOL You beat me to it.

[Twilight]

Atheists are far more educated and less violent than their theist counter parts.

I have seen Dawkins use this argument.

Basically, he comes from the position that:

Athiests are intelligent.

Theists are unintelligent.

Is he really arguing a fact though, or is this an argument from a false sense of pride?

Because I consider the USSR, who were athiestic at their core.

Yet they probably killed more Jews than Hitler's nazi Germany did.

So is this type of argument really valid?

How can one state that a particular group has "higher education"?

Or "higher" morality?

As if it were a fact?

[Twilight]

Wherever you see a communist government, you will find government attempting to discourage or prohibit religion in general and Christianity in particular.

Is there freedom of religion in communist China, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea? Was there such freedom in the Soviet Union or in the countries it dominated before 1990?

Is this pattern mere coicidence in your thinking?

This is a very good point.

If "athiesm" as a belief system is so superior, why does it tend to commit the very crime that it holds religion accountable for, whenever it gains totalitarian power?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John317

Wherever you see a communist government, you will find government attempting to discourage or prohibit religion in general and Christianity in particular.

Is there freedom of religion in communist China, Vietnam, Cuba, North Korea? Was there such freedom in the Soviet Union or in the countries it dominated before 1990?

Is this pattern mere coicidence in your thinking?

This is a very good point.

If "athiesm" as a belief system is so superior, why does it tend to commit the very crime that it holds religion accountable for, whenever it gains totalitarian power?

Have you read nothing I have posted?

Atheism is not communism. You can have Christian communism. Karl Marx based essential ethical aspects of communism on Christianity. It was Stalin, Mao, and others who redefined communism by their belief in totalitarianism as a viable method to hurry up the emergence of communism.

Karl Marx believed that communism would be the government style that would evolve after the collapse of capitalism. He hasn't been far from the truth considering what deregulated capitalism has done to this country.

Atheism is not totalitarianism. You can have Christian totalitarianism which is what the OT government of Israel was.

What you are doing is slander and presenting false information.

Knock it off!!!!

At least put some effort into understanding the person's position is you are debating.

[Twilight]

What you are doing is slander and presenting false information.

Knock it off!!!!

At least put some effort into understanding the person's position is you are debating.

Would you like to silence me because I do not agree with you?

Just because I do not agree with you, does not mean I have not read your posts or misunderstood your point of view.

Stating that Communism had Athiesm at its very root, is not slanderous of false.

Lets face the facts here.

Whenever any system of thought gains the ascendency it persecutes.

Even athiesticly driven ideology.

[Twilight]

This is the point being made.

Man at his core is selfish.

Atheism does not remove that selfishness.

It is not a "succesful" model to build a worldview on, based on the systems that have been derived from it.

The evidence is there for all to see.

The idea that "all things arose through the process of naturalism" (atheism), does not make anyone more intelligent by default.

Nor does it give one a moral advantage.

Which was the argument made here:

Atheists are far more educated and less violent than their theist counter parts.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Atheists are far more educated and less violent than their theist counter parts.

I have seen Dawkins use this argument.

Basically, he comes from the position that:

Athiests are intelligent.

Theists are unintelligent.

[Twilight]

These are simple facts. Atheists are more educated and less violent.

The point is that a belief in Christianity does not make one smart or less violent.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

What you are doing is slander and presenting false information.

Knock it off!!!!

At least put some effort into understanding the person's position is you are debating.

Would you like to silence me because I do not agree with you?

[Twilight]

And yes I refuse an "athiestic education" after having received one.

Being then introduced to a genuine Christian education, the two cannot be compared in my opinion.

I view it that one teaches me I am an animal with no point or purpose and that selfishness is inherently ok.

The other teaches me I am a son of God and that love is the defining motive in life.

I place no value on athiestic education whatsoever and have had to unlearn so much it has taught me.

But Christianity, ahh, how sweet it is to know the Lord Jesus Himself.

That education cannot be equalled...

[cardw]

I know you keep claiming that "Athiests are more educated and less violent", and claiming it as a fact, but to have a "fact" you must provide evidence.

At this point, all that has happened is a claim has been made.

[Twilight]

Atheism is not a system of thought. It is simply a lack of belief in gods. It stops there period.

You continued insistence that atheism is an ideology is either willful ignorance or a lack of understanding.

Atheism is much more than simply a lack of belief in gods.

When a group agrees that "gods" do not exist, they have entered into a "system" of thought, a shared point of view.

That thought itself, obviously derives itself from the assumption that everything in the universe can be explained due to naturalistic means.

That observation of the visible and testable will give an individual sufficient basis to ascertain their existance and disprove the existance of "gods".

I think it goes much deeper than you have claimed here and disagree with your argument.

It is indeed an ideology.

As it is based on "ideas".

Not facts.

[Twilight]

This statement has nothing to do with your level of education. You have directly given evidence that you don't know what atheism is. And even though it has been defined for you over and over you continue to insist that it is an ideology.

Either you are lacking intelligence or you are willfully bearing false witness.

If there is another option then I open to hear it.

I have disagreed with your assertion about what athiesm is and explained why in my last post.

That disagreement does not automatically give you the right to claim another is "lacking intelligence", or "lying".

Which you have done here.

You might want to consider how you are addressing those that do not agree with you.

Accusing them of lying, or claiming they "lack intelligence" when they disagree, reflects poorly on you.

Mark :-)