2 Tenets of Atheism

[cardw]

What you do not clearly understand Cardw is this:

I am a Christian.

Everything you say gets filtered through the scripture.

Everything you challenge gets filtered through the scripture.

And if you disagree with it, it is because you have no light in you, as the scripture says.

That is the basis for my philosophy, worldview and definitions.

So appealing to athiestic rationalism, or secular reasoning bares no weight with me whatsoever.

My standard for truth and my educator is the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

Just so as you are clear on that... :-)

I understand you very clearly. It is for this reason that I believe religion is dangerous. You hold positions and bigotries toward other groups that are unassailable by reason.

As an agnostic it appears to me that any ideology that rejects reason is dangerous. And this includes forms of communism, dictatorships, and theocracies.

You are basically claiming infallibility. And that is dangerous and quite frankly arrogant.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

**off topic**

Rich

http://tiny.cc/CM2j8

Rich, your website doesn't work.

**back to topic**

[Twilight]

It is also interesting to note that atheists were the most knowledgable about religion. I think one of the reasons is that most agnostics and atheists that I have met are former believers who took Christianity very seriously and eventually in their search for truth could no longer honestly defend Christianity as truth. We tend to collect a lot of knowledge and evidence along the way.

It is also interesting to note, that many ex-agnostics like myself, once confronted with the truth convert to Christianity.

In my search for truth, I have had to reject much agnostic and athiestic/secular error.

I have tended to collect a lot of knowledge on the way.

I hope you see my point...

[Twilight]

This interview with Richard Dawkins reveals why faith is such a dangerous position to hold since it allows no possible way to resolve differences between different faiths.

As revealed in that last few posts any claim that comes from what the believer claims is the Holy Spirit is unassailable by reason or evidence.

As you get farther into the video, Richard Dawkins talks about his views on the wonder of the universe and its relationship to a belief in god.

I have seen much of Dawkins and his anti-religious views are inflamatory and dangerous.

In fact, he is a perfect example of the dangers of bigotry that many athiests publically display...

------------------

As to the claim that the evidence of the Holy Spirit is unassailable...

You clearly do not understand the scripture teachings on this, or you would not make such a claim.

The Holy Spirits leading is always testable by the scriptures.

So your claim is false, that it is an appeal to untestable authority.

The Holy Spirit's leading can be tested and confirmed by the Bible.

Which in turn is confirmed by Christ.

Who is in turn confirmed by Prophecy.

Totally logical and testable. :-)

[doug yowell]

[One can appreciate the ethical philosophy of Jesus without believing that he was god or having a need of a savior.

Well then you will have to reject a major portion of western thinking which is based on love your neighbor as yourself.

And you will have to reject Thomas Jefferson.

You make these claims without evidence. I have no reason to believe that you know what you are talking about.

Is this the same Thomas Jefferson that based the defense of human rights and the formation of this country on the declarations of the Creator God? Or are you referring to the guy from the TV show? And the major portion of western thinking which is based on "love your neighbor as yourself" came from where?? "The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society,He(God)has taken care to impress it's precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall be not effaced by the subleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral precepts of Jesus, and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses."--Thomas Jefferson. Using Jefferson to argue against the Divinity of Jesus may work,using Jefferson to argue for the tenants of athiesm is intellectually dishonest.

[skyblue888]

I just finished reading the whole thread. Wow!

I could not help but think of what Jesus Himself said, "For the sons of this age are in their generation wiser than the sons of light." Luke 18:6.

hmmmm

It should not be too difficult to understand when one considers the fact that the Jewish people (theists) who had been called to reveal the true character of God to the world had so misrepresented Him that they caused it to look upon Him as a tyran! See D.A.36.

Should we wonder why there are so many "atheists" or "infidels" in the world while the real infidels are those who were called to make the true God known to all the world? Can there be anything worse than a wicked religionist? "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, you make him twofold the child of hell than yourselves." Matt.23:11.

And apparently when Jesus spoke these words He was looking down the ages with His eyes fixed upon our time!

These things happened unto them and they were recorded for our instruction upon whom the ends of the ages have come. (1 Cor.10:11)

Both Jews and Christians have caused the world to look upon the God of the Bible as a tyran.

This was prophesied in no uncertain terms:

"For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people." Isaiah 60:2.

For this very reason, "At this time, a message from God, is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth." Christ's Object Lessons, p.415.

"The revelation of His own glory in the form of humanity will bring Heaven so near to men that the beauty adorning the inner temple will be seen in every soul in whom the Saviour dwells. Men will be captivated by the glory of an abiding Christ. And in currents of praise and thanksgiving from the many souls THUS won to God, glory will flow back to the great Giver." Christ's Objects Lessons, p.420.

The lesson history teaches us is that this message and this revelation will not come from the expected channels but from men and women of God's own choosing.

sky

"To many minds the origin of sin and the reason for its existence are a source of great perplexity. They see the work of evil, with its terrible results of woe and desolation, and they question how all this can exist under the sovereignty of One who is infinite in wisdom, in power, and in love. Here is a mystery of which they find no explanation. And in their uncertainty and doubt they are blinded to truths plainly revealed in God's word and essential to salvation. There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed; hence they find no solution of their difficulties; and such as are actuated by a disposition to doubt and cavil seize upon this as an excuse for rejecting the words of Holy Writ. Others, however, fail of a satisfactory understanding of the great problem of evil, from the fact that tradition and misinterpretation have obscured the teaching of the Bible concerning the character of God, the nature of His government, and the principles of His dealing with sin." The Great Controversy, p.492.

[Gail]

Thank for quoting that passage from the Great Controversy. I had just read it myself last night (I'm almost done the book!)

So very true!

Now if you were ask someone what his/her idea of a true Christian believer, chances are it wouldn't be those who burned others at the stake or otherwise maltreated their fellow humans, right?

What I am trying to say is that those outside of the faith have an inner sense of dignity and humility and benevolence when they see it. And they would be correct in judging so.

[phkrause]

Great posts Gail and Sky.

[Twilight]

Thank for quoting that passage from the Great Controversy. I had just read it myself last night (I'm almost done the book!)

So very true!

Now if you were ask someone what his/her idea of a true Christian believer, chances are it wouldn't be those who burned others at the stake or otherwise maltreated their fellow humans, right?

What I am trying to say is that those outside of the faith have an inner sense of dignity and humility and benevolence when they see it. And they would be correct in judging so.

It is interesting how a non-Christian has an expectation of a Christian believer.

But there are different people outside looking on.

There are those that seek to attack Christianity from a position of knowledge, we must be careful not to invite the wolf in with the local neighbourhood dogs...

Sometimes our desire to witness means we are blind to wolves in sheep's clothing and seek to protect the wolf.

Despite everyone's urgent warnings...

[LifeHiscost]

And since you aren't willing to look at any other evidence, it is pointless to have a conversation with you.

To me it simply looks like you are appealing to god as your interpreter which make what ever you post infallible. There is no argument against that since you won't even consider any other argument.

As to the top comment, I agree. Once one has found their home, to wander around trying to find something better seems rather fruitless. OTOH. to continue to make an effort to undermine the stability of another's home, not only would seem fruitless but could be devastating to those who are exhausted and want to find that home which has an undoubted soft place to land but were misdirected, only to land on the rocks of self-doubt and recrimination.

The blind leading the blind will have little consolation for their efforts.

"“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

Matthew 7:24-29 NKJV

"The amount you give will determine the amount you get back.”

Then Jesus gave the following illustration: “Can one blind person lead another? Won’t they both fall into a ditch? Students are not greater than their teacher. But the student who is fully trained will become like the teacher."

Luke 6:39,40 NLT

As to infallibility, the only claim to that resides in the only One Who claims it.

"Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."John 14:6 NLT

God blesses!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

[One can appreciate the ethical philosophy of Jesus without believing that he was god or having a need of a savior.

Well then you will have to reject a major portion of western thinking which is based on love your neighbor as yourself.

And you will have to reject Thomas Jefferson.

You make these claims without evidence. I have no reason to believe that you know what you are talking about.

Is this the same Thomas Jefferson that based the defense of human rights and the formation of this country on the declarations of the Creator God? Or are you referring to the guy from the TV show? And the major portion of western thinking which is based on "love your neighbor as yourself" came from where?? "The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society,He(God)has taken care to impress it's precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall be not effaced by the subleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral precepts of Jesus, and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses."--Thomas Jefferson. Using Jefferson to argue against the Divinity of Jesus may work,using Jefferson to argue for the tenants of athiesm is intellectually dishonest.

There are no tenants of atheism other than there is no god. And Thomas Jefferson being a Deist would certainly be an atheist to the god of the Bible. When Thomas Jefferson refers to god he is clearly not referring to Jesus or the god of the Bible.

This is obvious because Jefferson wrote the Jefferson Bible in which he wanted to express the philosophy of Jesus removed from all the miracles and expressions of Jesus as divine.

He felt that put in the proper context Jesus could be compared to all the great ancient philosophers.

So if Jesus can be used by a Deist as a reference for philosophy I see no reason that I can't use Jesus without having to declare him divine.

In terms of Jefferson's belief and myself I would have no problem with Jefferson's view of a creator god. Deism makes no claims about this god intervening within the affairs of men other than creating them.

Jefferson was a humanist because he believed in the natural goodness within each person. He was simply trying to provide the information and teachings from his understanding of Jesus needed to draw this out of society.

Christianity does not believe that humans have any good in them. Christianity is apposed to Jefferson's humanist leanings.

[LifeHiscost]

Well there is a lot of you in this decision making. I make no claims that god ever pointed anything out to me since I have no evidence of that.

Deliverance and salvation is a cooperative effort. One thing God does not ask us to do is to check our brains at the door when we're invited into His presence. It's called "freedom of choice",

and whether those choices are wrong or right, each choice brings a consequence that allows us the time we need to pay attention to the guidance offered.

Take my personal circumstance today as a simple example. Jesus has pointed out that He wishes me to "prosper and be in health, even as my soul prospers". He's also pointed out that my body is the temple He wishes to live in, so I should take care of that temple/body.

Well I have this often ongoing battle to feed my appetite with less than desirable food, not to mention ignoring the advice from reliable sources to get enough scheduled rest.

If I don't pay enough attention to this advice and act accordingly, I end up with a battle against a cold of greater or lessor intensity as a result of a weak immune system. Well, today I have a cold, from obvious reasons. I could blame God and cry about how unjust He is for allowing this to happen, or I can bite the bullet, confess my sin and ask for help to get back on the straight and narrow.

The choice is mine, to ignore His advice on how to remain healthy, and stubbornly resist till the worst happens, or eat a piece of humble pie and accept His gift of life with a minimum amount of discomfort. The choice is mine.

One thing I know from experience. He's not going to zap me with a bolt of lightening, at least until I've been given enough time to seriously consider yielding to His care for working out my eternal destiny.

So I consider. He is Life. Without Him there is no life since life only comes from Him. I willingly and ungrudgingly bow to His unfailing wisdom and loving concern for His erring child, which at present happens to be me.

If you've got a better way, I encourage you to take the advice Jesus gave to Judas Iscariot at the last supper.

"The disciples looked at each other, wondering whom he could mean. The disciple Jesus loved was sitting next to Jesus at the table.Simon Peter motioned to him to ask, “Who’s he talking about?” So that disciple leaned over to Jesus and asked, “Lord, who is it?”

Jesus responded, “It is the one to whom I give the bread I dip in the bowl.” And when he had dipped it, he gave it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot. When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him. Then Jesus told him, “Hurry and do what you’re going to do.” "John 13:22-27 NLT

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."Revelation 3:19 NKJV

God blesses!

[Twilight]

I see no reason that I can't use Jesus without having to declare him divine.

I can, plenty of them.

All in the bible.

Here is some:

2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Jesus was divine.

Therefore His example can only be followed by those that have access to the same power He did.

One might try to seperate them, but really it is an exercise in futility, as without divinity's aid they are impossible to maintain...

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I see no reason that I can't use Jesus without having to declare him divine.

I can, plenty of them.

All in the bible.

Here is some:

2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Jesus was divine.

Therefore His example can only be followed by those that have access to the same power He did.

One might try to seperate them, but really it is an exercise in futility, as without divinity's aid they are impossible to maintain...

Are you saying that Christians hold the copyright on love your neighbor as yourself? LOL

You continue to get more and more absurd.

Mark, it is simply a waste of time reasoning with you because you debate from authority not reason.

You are certainly free to believe what ever you want, but you can count me out at this point.

[Neil D]

Jesus was divine.

Therefore His example can only be followed by those that have access to the same power He did.

One might try to seperate them, but really it is an exercise in futility, as without divinity's aid they are impossible to maintain...

So, let me reflect this back at you.....Mankind is being restored with divine power and must use that same divinity to be restored....

My question is to what?

Are we to be devine? Since we are using divinity's power, as Jesus did, then we are to be restored to ....divinity? ...as divine?

[John317]

Mankind is being restored with divine power and must use that same divinity to be restored....

My question is to what?

Are we to be devine? Since we are using divinity's power, as Jesus did, then we are to be restored to ....divinity? ...as divine?

2 Peter 1:2-4

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, [3] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: [4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Cor. 3:18

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

2 Cor. 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

God intended humans (Adam and Eve) to be like Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit is given to us in order to restore us to that image, having the same qualitative characteristics as Christ. This is what we find in Gal. 5: 22-24--

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. [24] And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

[John317]

Christianity does not believe that humans have any good in them. Christianity is apposed to Jefferson's humanist leanings.

Christianity doesn't teach that people don't do anything that appears to be good.

But it teaches that all the good that humans do comes from God-- that is, that every impulse to do right comes ultimately from the Holy Spirit.

You are right that the Bible, and Christianity, is opposed to Jefferson's humanism.

[LifeHiscost]

2 Peter 1:2-4

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, [3] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: [4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Cor. 3:18

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

2 Cor. 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

God intended humans (Adam and Eve) to be like Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit is given to us in order to restore us to that image, having the same qualitative characteristics as Christ. This is what we find in Gal. 5: 22-24--

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. [24] And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Thanks John. I needed that.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Arrogant...total arrogant philosophy!

Basically you are saying that if a person disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible, they are clueless, you are superior.

"That(Bible)is the basis for my philosophy, worldview and definitions."

Really.....you live your life as if it were Biblical times, you have limited your knowledge to what is in the Bible, definition wise?

Come on, rethink that post!!

Though Twilight might err on certain points, as all humans do, the reference to the Word by him only holds human error if there is any error.

"“The rain and snow come down from the heavens

and stay on the ground to water the earth.

They cause the grain to grow,

producing seed for the farmer

and bread for the hungry.

It is the same with my word.

I send it out, and it always produces fruit.

It will accomplish all I want it to,

and it will prosper everywhere I send it."

Isaiah 55:10-12 NLT

God blesses!

[Twilight]

Mark, it is simply a waste of time reasoning with you because you debate from authority not reason.

You are certainly free to believe what ever you want, but you can count me out at this point.

That is not correct Cardw.

I debate from reason that derives itself from authority.

You claim the same thing I believe, you just claim your own experience as "authority", is that not the case? :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Mankind is being restored with divine power and must use that same divinity to be restored....

My question is to what?

Are we to be devine? Since we are using divinity's power, as Jesus did, then we are to be restored to ....divinity? ...as divine?

2 Peter 1:2-4

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, [3] According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: [4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Cor. 3:18

And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

2 Cor. 5:21

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

God intended humans (Adam and Eve) to be like Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit is given to us in order to restore us to that image, having the same qualitative characteristics as Christ. This is what we find in Gal. 5: 22-24--

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. [24] And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

You have answered it already John317. :-)

[Twilight]

Arrogant...total arrogant philosophy!

Basically you are saying that if a person disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible, they are clueless, you are superior.

"That(Bible)is the basis for my philosophy, worldview and definitions."

Really.....you live your life as if it were Biblical times, you have limited your knowledge to what is in the Bible, definition wise?

Come on, rethink that post!!

No, I am saying this.

The Bible is the sole pure repository of Truth that is given to mankind.

Gods will as revealed in that Bible are superior to any other system of thought or philosophy.

The Biblical principles are timeless.

They deal with the one problem man has always had since the Garden of Eden, Selfishness...

The Bible contains the whole truth that mankind needs to be restored back to God.

Anything that contradicts that is a lie and should be dismissed as such.

The Bible has proven itself to be reliable and totally logical.

It can be trusted.

[doug yowell]

Quote:

There are no tenants of atheism other than there is no god. And Thomas Jefferson being a Deist would certainly be an atheist to the god of the Bible. When Thomas Jefferson refers to god he is clearly not referring to Jesus or the god of the Bible.

So if Jesus can be used by a Deist as a reference for philosophy I see no reason that I can't use Jesus without having to declare him divine.

In terms of Jefferson's belief and myself I would have no problem with Jefferson's view of a creator god. Deism makes no claims about this god intervening within the affairs of men other than creating them.

So you've admitted that,being a Deist, Jefferson could not have supported that one tenant of atheism.And by definition a deist cannot be an atheist.The Divinity of Jesus is a separate question.It seems hugely unlikely that Jefferson,not believing in a Biblical God, would have written his own version of the New Testament,in order to illustrate that he believed in another god apart from the Biblical God.There is simply no evidence that he believed in anything like that.Your issue does not seem to be so much with the existence of God but rather with the Biblical description of God. What do you think of Jesus? Good guy, or bad guy? Sane or deluded? Do you,like Hitchens,believe that Jesus never existed?

[cardw]

Quote:

There are no tenants of atheism other than there is no god. And Thomas Jefferson being a Deist would certainly be an atheist to the god of the Bible. When Thomas Jefferson refers to god he is clearly not referring to Jesus or the god of the Bible.

So if Jesus can be used by a Deist as a reference for philosophy I see no reason that I can't use Jesus without having to declare him divine.

In terms of Jefferson's belief and myself I would have no problem with Jefferson's view of a creator god. Deism makes no claims about this god intervening within the affairs of men other than creating them.

So you've admitted that,being a Deist, Jefferson could not have supported that one tenant of atheism.And by definition a deist cannot be an atheist.The Divinity of Jesus is a separate question.It seems hugely unlikely that Jefferson,not believing in a Biblical God, would have written his own version of the New Testament,in order to illustrate that he believed in another god apart from the Biblical God.There is simply no evidence that he believed in anything like that.Your issue does not seem to be so much with the existence of God but rather with the Biblical description of God. What do you think of Jesus? Good guy, or bad guy? Sane or deluded? Do you,like Hitchens,believe that Jesus never existed?

By definition a Deist is not an atheist. The whole point of the Jefferson Bible, if you took time to read the link I gave, was that Jesus wasn't Divine.

He was writing the PHILOSOPHY of Jesus. Read my references!!! It's a pain to continually correct your lack of research.

I don't know if Jesus existed or not. There isn't enough evidence for either case since ancient writers tended to make all kinds of stuff up. I tend to believe that Jesus was an anthropomorphic result of a spiritual gnostic Christ. But honestly I don't know. It is entirely possible that Jesus was a real person.

I happen to agree with Jefferson that Jesus or the philosophy of Jesus is an essential part of moving from a tribal ethic to a humanity ethic.

[doug yowell]

So you've admitted that,being a Deist, Jefferson could not have supported that one tenant of atheism.And by definition a deist cannot be an atheist.The Divinity of Jesus is a separate question.