Sonny Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Not if it is Christ living through me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 One thing I've never understood is how someone can say that humans are essentially evil. Have they had very bad experiences with people? Are they simply self-loathing? I think I have enough issues without the added baggage of hating myself and trying to be another person instead. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 So humans are essentially good? Christ clearly told the RYR that this isn't the case. Look it up. Hate comes coveting, which is sin (selfishness). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Well stated CoA. Well stated. It must be a miserable existance for them folk. I suppose we do need to love them since they can't love themselves. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Sonny, If you have Christ living through you? Is there a question of that? Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 Is there a question of what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 You said if Christ is in you. Are you sure that he is and you are not deceiving yourself? If you are naturally selfish and evil then you could just be deceiving yourself for your selfish reasons. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 I understand your question - the key is not what Christ does in me (although it's good for a witness), but what He did in my humanity almost two thousand years ago. This is what saves me. Without justification by faith I'll never make. Neither will you guys. So don't depend on being selfless or good, because compared to Christ you are not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Excellent Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Sonny, That's sort of avoiding the issue and trying to get out of the corner you put yourself into using a generic statement. To sum up: 1) You've stated that all people are selfish, and there's nothing unselfish that they do 2) You've stated that unless in Christ, everything people do is selfish ... including love 3) When asked how do you know that Christ is working through you if your heart is selfish and you could be deceiving yourself... you avoided the point by saying that what you think and do does not really matter because Christ died for your selfish motives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 29, 2011 Author Share Posted January 29, 2011 I never said it doesn't matter. Please make that correction. God knows those who are His. He knows the motives of mankind. Those who persistently live for the flesh, while making a good show outwardly, will be condemned in the judgment. See Mat 7:22-27 for example. I guess I can quote a ref, Tom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Sonny, It's puzzling that you won't tell us directly if Christ is in you or not. A simple yes Christ is in me or no Christ is not in me would seem to be the honest answer. When you say IF Christ is in you it sounds like you don't know if Christ is in you or not. Telling us that Jesus knows doesn't tell us if you know. And if you don't know then you have no business telling us anything. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 If I have accepted Christ I will experience His agape in my life. Many times I will not even notice those things that God does through me because they are not motivated by my flesh. For example, let's say there are two men - one a nonbeliever, the other a believer. Both help a little old lady across the street. Both of them know she has a lots of money. The question is what's their motive for helping? If the believer's heart/mind is at that time controlled by God's Spirit his "good deed" will be a selfless act. The unbeliever, because he has been born into slavery, his mind will be in full control of his selfish nature and therefore everything he does will be for his benefit. In this case his motive could be so that she remembers him in her will. Jesus said the same of the Pharisees. He said all they did outwardly - all the so called "good deeds" they did - were for self-centered motivates. See Matt chapter 23. In chapter Matt 5 Jesus (and this is paraphrased in my own words) says that unless one's righteousness exceeded the scribes and Pharisees that person couldn't enter heaven. You must remember that the scribes and Pharisees where full-time law keepers. They kept the law 7 by 24. The problem was it wasn't generated by God (who brings agape into the life) and therefore "everything" they did was for their own benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Nobody helps a little old lady across the street because they want to be in her will. If you were not a Christian, would that be your motivation? That would not be my motivation. I would help someone across the street because they needed it, regardless of my religious beliefs. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 if one helps someone out just because they are a Christian,,,,, they may have other serious personality defects as well. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Sonny, I do understand your point. And I don't want you to misinterpret me. The question that was presented asked how do you know that Christ is in you, and working through you and thus rendering your actions unselfish? You could be deceiving yourself into thinking so in order to validate your selfish motives. You answered with what Christ did for your humanity 2000 years ago... i.e. without His sacrifice all of your deeds make no difference. I.E. It does not matter how much good you do in this world, without Christ (may I say that you imply without belief in Chirst) all of that selfless or good is really selfish and not good (?) I have to imply a couple things here, because you don't really explain the mechanics. You just make a statement. I.E. I believe that you go by the same erroneous assumption which states because people SOMETIMES do things that are selfish, and immoral... that ABSOLUTELY AND FOR GOOD renders them selfish and immoral. That would be like saying that because an A student would sometimes fail a quiz... that would automatically render him uneducated and stupid. Any such conclusion would be absurd, yet these are the implications made about humanity in the name of the Christian religion, perhaps daily. People are made believe that they are essentially evil and selfish, and thus needing miracle in order to peacefully successfully coexist without eventual self-destruction. I.E. Doctrine of the original sin does not merely states that man sins on occasion, just like students would fail a test, or get a couple questions wrong on the exam. It essentially states, that people are sinners in such a way that they are consistently failing the test miserably and can't pass a class unless teacher would fail the other student so that they can have an A... but only if they recognize the student's sacrifice and be thankful for his offer to assume the failure of others. Grades like B, C, D just don't cut it for the the teacher, because A is the only passing grade and thus in extremely difficult class the failure of the volunteering student is absolutely necessary. A more sensible and obvious approach would be: 1) All of the students are able to both get the questions right and wrong. Obviously, because of our limited knowledge (we are born with nearly blank brain knowledge about this world) we would get some plenty answers wrong. But it does not mean that we won't get plenty answers correct. Making A+ to be the only possible passing grade knowing the impossibility of such arrangement would simply necessitate the failure to begin with I.E. Either one student fails, or the whole class does. SUCH ARRANGEMENT TAKES THE FOCUS AWAY FROM LEARNING AND SHIFTS IT ON THE GRADE AND PERFORMANCE. It's much more sensible to think that we will learn from the small quizzes here and there, so that when the larger tests come, we can do much better. 2) We are responsible for our own grades. Sure, we may employ the services of the tutor, but it does not mean that the tutor will be ascribed our success or failure. What sense does it make for teacher to say... well you have an A in the class, but you essentially stupid and brainless... and you pass only because the tutor was willing to help you out of the situation. The tutor does not take your tests for you. To say otherwise is to admit cheating and unfair advantage over other students. On the other hand, if arrangement is made that all students can have the tutor taking their test... what good is it to go to school in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 "Nobody"? Really - how do you know? Without Christ everyone's motivation is self-centered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 I don't follow your logic, Stan. Please explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 This is Secular Humanism that you are presenting. It posits that human beings are capable of being ethical and moral without God. The NT disagrees - humans are incapable of producing agape - they can only produce self-love, which is agape bent back to oneself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 How do you know that humans are only capable of selfishness? Do you know the mind of every human? You are making huge, general claims that affect the way you see people around you. Isn't it a bit self-centered to say that only certain people like you are not self-centered? What's more, how does one make the unselfish decision to give their life to Christ? Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 The Bible emphatically states that mankind is born a slave to himself. He is born bent to himself. Therefore it follows that everything he does, without Christ, is for self-centered reasons. Now you can reject this, but when you do you are denying your need of Christ. Christ came to save sinners, the moment you claim that you can live without God that moment you are entering the arena of unbelief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 The Bible rarely states anything emphatically. I would hardly use it to make blanket statements about every human's nature, as if all humans were basically alike. Instead of judging the entire human race to be automatically evil (bad Gandhi, bad), I would assume that if someone acts like a good person then they probably are one, even if we disagree on metaphysical questions. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 That last statement is 180 degrees with the Bible. Your view of good and God's are diametrically opposed. I can't give you quotes here, but I could paraphrase. I don't know if that is allowed by Tom. Tom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Sonny Almost quoted... that was close.... What I meant is that if you we do something to impress someone that we are a christian it can end up being manipulation. Sometimes it is to "love them into the Church" if you have heard that expression. Christ did things because people needed things, not because he was looking for people to join him and his followers. There are kind and loving folks everywhere, some of those are spirit filled and being led by the one you server. One day they will ask the question, "What happened to your hand Mister Jesus?" that was part of my thinking on that comment. Thanks for asking Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Sonny, What is with this IF you have the spirit of Christ? All you need to say is yes or no. Yes I have the spirit of Christ or No I don't have the spirit of Christ. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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