Sonny Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 I would have to disagree that there are kind & loving people everywhere and that some of those are spirit filled. According to the Bible only those who are spirit filled can experience agape. Hence, without God's Spirit there's nothing good, only selfishness masquerading as agape. A good example were the Jews, who had the law, but were not filled with the Spirit. They outwardly kept the law, but inwardly, motivationally, everything they did was for their gain. Then you had two groups within the Gentiles. The first denied God's existence and were outwardly wicked. Then you had those who were in harmony with the law, even though they didn't have or know God's law. This group was experiencing God's agape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 "If" means that either you have Christ by faith or you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Well because "if" means that you either have Christ by faith or you don't then you obviously don't. Otherwise you wouldn't deny that you have the Spirit of Christ by not answering. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 I think you need to back off - you are going too far. Christ knows if I have accepted Him by faith or not. You are not my judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I didn't say you haven't accepted him. I stated that you won't say if you have the Spirit of Christ or not. And since you won't say I assume that you don't. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 This doesn't sound like an assumption: "you obviously don't" - it sounds just like a judgment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 The Spirit needs permission to work in the heart. That's because agape doesn't force. There are two ways to accept the Spirit of Christ: 1] Through direct revelation - the Bible - the preaching of the gospel. or 2] Through indirect revelation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Sonny boy is condescending. Please stop it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 yes it is, and please stop it.. back to the topic... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Well, anyone who had the spirit of Christ would be willing to openly answer a question without dodging. You can clear this up rather easily. A simple yes I have the spirit of Christ or no I don't have the spirit of Christ would suffice. Otherwise, based on the lack of a response by you, I am assuming that you don't. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 there is a time to speak.... and a time to keep silent... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Yeah. I've decided the same thing on another thread with John317. After a point it just gets rediculous. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 cardw, I have Christ by faith. How's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 You said that one had to have the Spirit of Christ to be able to speak without evil intent. I'm not sure that having Christ by faith is the same as having the Spirit of Christ. It seems rather difficult for you to honestly state what you actually know to be true. Now I understand that gentiles who demonstrate agape love have the Spirit of Christ without knowledge of it. I know that I express agape love so I must have the Spirit of Christ. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 As to the Gentiles, it was the law that they didn't have....They understood God through nature. They accepted the unknown God. Without Christ you can't do anything good - hence everything you do will be centered in selfishness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 It's very hard to argue your position when you simply make blanket statements without any examples or explanations. Essentially, I don't really think you understand the argument that you are making. You are making it solely based on a dogma... I doubt that you decipher the world outside of dogma, or consider any other possibilities. I.E. the dogma becomes your worldview. If Bible calls Bat a bird, then it must be so. So far, you refuse to answer any arguments out of logic... for example: How do you explain natural ability for people to sympathize? If it's a bit unclear to you... I'll give a couple synonyms for the word. Sympathy is synonymous with aid, comfort, compassion, harmony and rapport. If you define our ability to empathize as selfish, then what is it exactly that changes to such ability and function when one becomes a theist and a Christian? Please don't dodge this with another "it is just so" type of statement. Explain. There are just too many of the acts of sympathy around the world, yet you seem to believe that these are based on essentially selfish motives. Better yet, give me examples of unselfish acts (not done by God) and explain to me why such examples would be impossible for people who don't have Christ. Please give me several. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cardw Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 fccool, Good points. I feel like we are talking to a Magic 8 Ball that keeps answering, "Better not tell you now." Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 How do I explain the natural ability of people to sympathize? Well, there's not just one answer, but the big one is they are thinking what if that was me? In other words they sympathize by thinking what if I were in that position. The sympathy comes from their own self-love. That's one scenario. Your problem is that you look outwardly. God sees the motive. His word, the Bible, clearly states that man is born bent to himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Give you examples of unselfish acts? The Bible has many, but I can't quote them here. As to unselfish acts of human, I can't. Why? I can't read the motive (another way of saying I can't read the heart). But I can tell you that unless Christ is controlling a person's human nature [to the extent that person allows Him to do so] everything that person does is polluted with himself in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Well, can you give examples from your own life? You surely know your own motives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Thanks, but no thanks. I'm not publishing my business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Why, can't you find any unselfish acts in your own life that could serve as examples of Christian unselfishness? Isn't it very selfish of you to hold those for yourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Let's talk about you....Are you producing "agape" without Christ? If so, let me test you according to the Bible. Up to it? The spotlight is very bright.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Well, "agape" is a made up definition that demands a certain conditions. As I've pointed before, it was borrowed from greek and it mostly denotes the higher level of love. The contemporary Greeks thought of it as a love that a husband has for his wife. So, right there your argument is sort of twisted. It's like me saying ... can you make Orange Juice? And then say... well, what you make is not the "real and authentic" OJ. The real and authentic OJ is made from the oranges that are only grown on the private farm in Costa Rica. These Oranges can only obtained by joining a Costa Rica orange club. All of the other OJ is tainted with imperfection. I.E. You define "agape" as the love that God has, and then say that everything else is selfish unless one ascribes to Christian religion. Never-mind the idea that we were created in God's image. I guess we were not that perfect to begin with that we go from absolutely unselfish... to absolutely selfish. Nevertheless... go ahead, ask away. I'm curious what you have in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 While I'm waiting... I can present a possibility for you that you perhaps never have thought about. What if nothing really changes in metaphysical sense when person accepts Christ? What if religious view simply channels the good that's already present in people and then tells them that that religion is to be thanked for it? There's this idea that religion is filled with recovering alcoholics, drug addicts and criminals who found God and got miraculous turn-around. But is it really so? Christianity, Islam and Judaism essentially populated by people who ALREADY desire good and desire positive change for humanity. Otherwise it would be hard to explain how is it that naturally evil people would do such a good thing like make a choice for God? So, the only thing that would seem to change in such scenario is the jargon and the direction in which the finger is pointed. Let's say your neighbor's house burns down (I hope not), and there are two people rush to the rescue. One is Christian, and the other one is agnostic. What you are basically saying that because of their religious view their motives MUST BE different? Isn't that a bit presumptuous on your part, when you yourself admit that you don't know the true motives of men? How can you then go on and say that everyone who does not prescribe to Christianity is selfish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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