Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[olger]

Guy on another forum says it's ok as long as you don't get drunken.

Thoughts?

[John317]

For me personally, I had to stop completely. If I didn't, I would drink more than I should. I get high easily when I drink alcohol. All I had to do is drink two beers or a couple of hard drinks or a glass of wine. I didn't like getting drunk but I had a problem stopping once I started drinking. I enjoyed the high feeling and I also liked the taste.

The reason I don't drink now is that I know it's important to have a clear mind in order to distinguish truth from error. I also know that if I drank, I would drink too much and almost certainly become addicted to it. The Bible tells me that my body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that I should not get drunk but that I should be filled with the Spirit. I can't be filled with God's Spirit at the same time that I'm drunk.

[phkrause]

Guy on another forum says it's ok as long as you don't get drunken.

Thoughts?

Interesting question olger! You'll have those that will say absolutely NO. Those that will say like this person, as long as you don't get drunk, but you can still be an alcoholic and not get drunk, I believe. I think the bigger question is can we handle the alcohol. Will it lead some to being an alcoholic. I think there are many reasons for not drinking. I guess there are benefits and obviously risks. I think each person needs to answer this for themselves, and not have someone tell you what is right or wrong with drinking. I don't think the Bible says outright no or yes. It does give reasons for certain people not to drink. And definitely makes a difference between new wine and fermented wine. Anyway those are my thoughts. I for one will not judge those that want to drink and tell them its wrong or sinful.

[Bravus]

(composing this over a light beer)

I think it's very easy to make a Biblical case against drunkenness.

I think it's very hard to make a Biblical case for complete abstinence.

Having said that, 'everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial' (1 Corinth. 10:23

[abelisle]

(composing this over a light beer)

I think it's very easy to make a Biblical case against drunkenness.

I think it's very hard to make a Biblical case for complete abstinence.

Having said that, 'everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial' (1 Corinth. 10:23

I agree.

[Guest]

Can I safely assume that those who think it's ok to drink have absolutely no use for the prophet, Ellen White?

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 1Co 3:16,17

2Ch 20:20 Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

God's People Value Their Health

The health reform, I was shown, is a part of the third angel's message and is just as closely connected with it as are the arm and hand with the human body.--1T 486 (1867). {LDE 80.4}

Tea, coffee, tobacco, and alcohol we must present as sinful indulgences. We cannot place on the same ground, meat, eggs, butter, cheese, and such articles placed upon the table. These are not to be borne in front, as the burden of our work. The former--tea, coffee, tobacco, beer, wine, and all spirituous liquors--are not to be taken moderately, but discarded.--3SM 287 (1881). {LDE 81.1}

[Gary K]

(composing this over a light beer)

I think it's very easy to make a Biblical case against drunkenness.

I think it's very hard to make a Biblical case for complete abstinence.

Having said that, 'everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial' (1 Corinth. 10:23

Not really very difficult at all unless you think being a fool and unwise is acceptable.

Proverbs 9:1-6 The wine mentioned is fermented wine according to Strongs.

Proverbs 20:1 Once again the wine mentioned is fermented wine.

Proverbs 24:31 Don't even look at fermented wine.

Also look at Leviticus 10:9 in the context of 1John 1:6.

[abelisle]

I guess that alcohol isn't the only concern here since EGW condemns lots of other substances also e.g. tea, coffee and interestingly "wine"

How then must these verses be understood:

Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Pro 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

As for me, I believe in the health message and I try to practice it. Moderation in all things biblically, but total abstinence re: EGW, it seems?

Alex

[Dottie]

From my personal experience, I know that even one drink can be harmful. I have never had an alcoholic drink, fearing that I would like it so much that I would lose control of myself in some way. BUT, my son's birth mother drank. I am not sure how much, or how often, but I have a boy who has Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder. He has a lack of logic, cannot make choices, and is liable to blow up at the slightest provocation, real or imagined. One drink is all it takes to cause a birth defect. He does not have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, as he has no visible deformities. His are all within his brain, affecting the way he thinks.

[LifeHiscost]

BUT, my son's birth mother drank. I am not sure how much, or how often, but I have a boy who has Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder. He has a lack of logic, cannot make choices, and is liable to blow up at the slightest provocation, real or imagined. One drink is all it takes to cause a birth defect. He does not have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, as he has no visible deformities. His are all within his brain, affecting the way he thinks.

Thank you, Dottie for that personal testimony.

While I would be one of the first to admit that one testimony does not necessarily mean everybody who disregards that story is bound to fall into the same ditch, I would also suggest everyone who chooses to ignore that little bit of evidence will accumulate to themselves personal risk that, when added to all the other risks we are willing to take for a moment of pleasure, will eventually erupt in personal loss, sometimes in horrific ways, and then some will be prone to say, "Why God, why did you let this happen to me? Am I such a bad person?"

I knew a woman who asked the question, when she bore a child out of wedlock, "Why, God, did you let me become pregnant?"

Now I'm not going to hazard a guess as to how many times God did work the miracle that kept her from getting pregnant, but to accuse God of delinquency for that which we hold at least some responsibility for, seems to me to be putting ourselves on the side of the "accuser of the brethren".

Perhaps the same principle could apply to ignoring the risk we take when we imbibe in a beverage that is known to kill off brain cells in an unknown large number every time we choose to drink it.

Praise God, somebody was praying for me when I was young and every time I drank an alcoholic beverage of any significant amount, I would get so sick I would have to barf at the most inopportune times. I finally figured out it was my own fault that my adam's apple was so far up in my throat the next morning, and being of such superior intellect, I eventually came to the conclusion being like the rest of the guys was something I could do without.

God blesses!

[fccool]

These type of question do bother me, because they bring up religion in context of "it's ok" and "it's not ok".

I.E. What can I really do to make sure God is not angry with me? These type of questions completely neglect the life in context of free-willing human being.

Really falls into the same category as:

1) Is it ok to tell a white lie to save someone?

2) Is it ok to watch TV on Saturday?

3) Is it ok to have sex before marriage?

It really becomes the issue of walking the boundaries instead of living out your life to its full potential. It's not really a religious issue for me personally... so let me break it down to you from non-religious perspective:

1) Alcohol is highly toxic. I.E. it's a poison... that's why people wake up hung over and throwing up (depending on how much they ingest).

2) Alcohol can make you feel good and warm, and relaxed and "happy"... hence it's a popular social drink for that reason. But so is XTC, cocaine and marijuana for the same reasons in many circles.

3) There are plenty of better ways to enjoy non-harmful and beneficial drinks and have relaxing social experience than drinking alcohol. It really is one of the silly social fads that lasted for millenniums. I think it was justifiable during the times of lacking refrigeration, rapid transportation and distribution... so any juice you'd leave for a couple days would ferment and thus be alcoholic. It was an unavoidable natural outcome in many cases.

Today, we have a culture built around it that carries the context of sophistication, but is rather vain in my opinion... as vain as lighting up a cigarette. Does nothing good for you, other than make you feel good for a moment, but has damaging effect under the hood.

So, the real question is not rather "if it's ok to do something", but "Why would I want to do something that's harmful to me (in various degrees)?"

My answers would be:

1) Curiosity

2) Social and peer pressure

3) Need for escape and relaxation

4) Because it feels good

Personally, none of the four above are enough for me to cancel out the harmful effect which is fairly established. For that reason I don't consume anything that has more that 0.5% of alcohol... and even these I consume because of occasional nostalgia associated with it.

If other people can drink with minimal side-effects... fine with me. I'm not going to hover over them with a Bible and E.G.White statements. It's not really an issue of following God's purpose. It's really an issue of doing what's best for you. Sure, the two do coincide... but the latter does not have the context of high-horse religious lecturing to all of the "unenlightened". I.E. "You neglect the sacred advice from God's prophet (implying that God is displeased and that the act of not listening is bigger than the harmful effects)".

[Gerr]

Guy on another forum says it's ok as long as you don't get drunken.

Thoughts?

For what PURPOSE? Recreational? Out of the question for me.

Medicinal? Possibly. For health? Doubtful inspite of red wine being tauted for its benefits. Could it impair one's judgment and ability to drive? Most definitely. Does it lower one's inhibitions? Most definitely.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: olger

Guy on another forum says it's ok as long as you don't get drunken.

Thoughts?

For what PURPOSE? Recreational? Out of the question for me.

Medicinal? Possibly. For health? Doubtful inspite of red wine being tauted for its benefits. Could it impair one's judgment and ability to drive? Most definitely. Does it lower one's inhibitions? Most definitely.

Agree with your post Gerry, and I would add to your mention of "red wine having benefits", we could get the same benefits without the bad benefits by just eating the grapes alone. The wine has its good and bad while the grapes only have the good benefits. I believe Vibrant Life magazine did a follow up of the study done in France (I Believe) on the benefits of red wine or just wine period.

[LifeHiscost]

"You neglect the sacred advice from God's prophet (implying that God is displeased and that the act of not listening is bigger than the harmful effects)".

Explain away the need of God for living correctly and you explain away the power to live with goodness in the life.

Eve ate of the fruit, contrary to sacred advice. Before eating of the fruit, she didn't need to know the evil that existed as a result of living contrary to the Father's advice.

If she had listened and eschewed the bite, all the evil affects never would have occurred. God's displeasure is based on the loss of pleasure and the pain of consequences to those He loves and wishes to guide in a pleasurable and ever increasing joyful lifestyle.

The lack of trust as revealed by the thought expressed in the underlined above, revealing unbelief, is the major obstacle to the joyful experience God intended for all mankind.

"“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."John 15:5 NKJV

"You will show me the path of life;In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore."Psalm 16:11 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Alcohol Does Not Kill Brain Cells

to qualify that title, pure alcohol will absolutely kill brain cells and many other types of cells, which is why it is used as a disinfectant. However, recent research has shown that the quantity of alcohol you could possibly take in, without killing yourself, does not introduce enough alcohol into your bloodstream to kill brain cells. This was proven by a study by Grethe Jensen and co. (1993), who meticulously counted neurons in matched samples of non-alcoholics and alcoholics. What they found was that there was no real difference in the density or overall number of neurons between the two groups. Various other research since has backed up Jensen’s findings. Thus, even alcoholics who are continually taking in unhealthy amounts of alcohol aren’t going to see brain cells die because of their drinking problem. However, alcohol does have other effects on the brain, both positive and negative, that have nothing to do with brain cells dying.

(Taken from one of several citations- Google for more)

I'm aware of one recent fatal auto accident, caused by main suspect being dui, in which eight occupants of the innocent parties were doa.

The one who was found dui wasn't doa and lived to down another drink that won't kill any brain cells. Meanwhile, of the eight occupants of the other vehicle, all of their brain cells died.

God blesses!

[fccool]

"You neglect the sacred advice from God's prophet (implying that God is displeased and that the act of not listening is bigger than the harmful effects)".

Explain away the need of God for living correctly and you explain away the power to live with goodness in the life.

Eve ate of the fruit, contrary to sacred advice. Before eating of the fruit, she didn't need to know the evil that existed as a result of living contrary to the Father's advice.

If she did not... you'd have a completely different version of reality... that does not have either you nor I in it. So, I see no reason to complain. Whatever happened is for us to learn from while we live out our lives the best we can.

[Bravus]

I stand by my earlier comments: all of them. I have no quibble with all these good commonsense arguments for abstinence. But I'm not seeing anyone make a solid Biblical case.

[Gary K]

I stand by my earlier comments: all of them. I have no quibble with all these good commonsense arguments for abstinence. But I'm not seeing anyone make a solid Biblical case.

Come on, Bravus. I gave you a solid case from the Bible. If you disagree with it, don't just say it's not a strong case, show how it is. Stop with the, I don't even have to show any evidence for what I say, attitude.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I stand by my earlier comments: all of them. I have no quibble with all these good commonsense arguments for abstinence. But I'm not seeing anyone make a solid Biblical case.

Come on, Bravus. I gave you a solid case from the Bible. If you disagree with it, don't just say it's not a strong case, show how it is. Stop with the, I don't even have to show any evidence for what I say, attitude.

The best visible solid case evidence is when a family puts two innocent young children 6 ft underground. While the guilty may not have destroyed his brain cells he certainly did permanently to those innocent

[Bravus]

OK, I'll do a 'quote and respond' on your (edit: response is to GaryK)earlier post. Please remember that the original question in the thread was about drinking alcohol without becoming drunk, and that my response was that it's easy to make a Biblical case against drunkenness but hard to make a Biblical case for total abstinence.

Quote:

Proverbs 9:1-6 The wine mentioned is fermented wine according to Strongs.

Proverbs 9

1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2 She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3 She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4 Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5 Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

In this context, this is an injunction *to* drink wine! The book of Proverbs is all about seeking wisdom, and the wine of wisdom is what is being offered here. First, the passage is an extended metaphor, so is not talking about drinking actual wine, but even if it was it would be pro, not anti.

Quote:

Proverbs 20:1 Once again the wine mentioned is fermented wine.

Proverbs 20

1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

It's not a huge leap to suggest that this is in relation to drunkenness, not moderate use. The person who is 'deceived by' wine is the person abusing it. This text is also part of a series of 'one liner' proverbs about practical matters. Verse 16, for example, talks about taking garments as surety for loans, and is contradicted both elsewhere in Proverbs and by Jesus. Every word of Scripture is weighty, of course, but this is not an area that is laying down laws and doctrines.

Quote:

Proverbs 24:31 Don't even look at fermented wine.

Proverbs 24:31

31 And, lo, it was all grown over with thorns, and nettles had covered the face thereof, and the stone wall thereof was broken down.

I'm guessing perhaps your reference missed its target a bit...

Quote:

Also look at Leviticus 10:9 in the context of 1 John 1:6.

Leviticus 10

9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.

This text is (a) about drinking before going to church to minister - and it would make sense to have the clearest possible minds for church and ( about the establishment of the priest class in Israel. I presume the text in 1 John will address that:

1 John 1:6

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.

Hmm, nope, unless I'm misunderstanding, perhaps you were pointing to a different text?

Sorry, but I'm still not seeing a slamdunk Biblical case for total abstinence. As I also said, there are a heap of excellent practical reasons for total abstinence, and I have nothing but respect for those who choose to abstain. But if the Bible is to be our rule of faith and practice, then we'd better know what it says and tell the truth about what it says.

[Gary K]

OK. I'll figure out my typo on texts and give you the correct texts at the end of this post.

Proverbs 9:1-6 is about those who are "simple" and "without understanding" that are seduced into drinking wine by a loose woman. This is clearly not in support of wine drinking, or immorality.

Proverbs 20:1 How can you ever be decieved by wine if you never drink it? I see this as an injunction to stay away from alcohol, for who can tell what one drink can do to you. I was an alky from my first drink on. I couldn't get enough and drank myself into a stupor from the very first time I tasted alcoholic beverages.

Here's the correct verse to replace the Proverbs typo.

Quote:

KJV: Proverbs 23:31. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

As to the Leviticus quote, you're correct. It is for going to church and thus not useful. I was thinking that there is another verse that says a group should not touch fermented wine, and believed it to be the priests, but found my memory to be faulty. It was directed to the Nazarites.

The verse in 1 John I was going to link to was the one where God considers us to be a kingdom of priests and rulers.

My bad. Thanks for the correction.

[Bravus]

Perhaps just clarity is what we need. The original question was relatively clear, but it wasn't clear whether what was sought was practical advice or a Biblical ruling. (Not that the two are necessarily different...)

I stand by what I said, which was 3 points, not 2:

1. Easy to make a Biblical case against drunkenness

2. Hard to make a Biblical case for abstinence

3. What is permitted is not necessarily beneficial

There's been lots of practical information in this thread, including your testimony, Gary, that speaks to the third of these points. The stories about drunk drivers are heart-rending, but they speak to drunkenness, not moderate use, and *everyone* posting in this thread is agreeing that drunkenness is not OK.

It's true, too, that for some people, one drink is too many, if they have addictive personalities (often developed or exacerbated as a result of various forms of childhood abuse).

I don't argue with the point that from all sorts of angles, abstinence is the best and safest path.

But my point is, as it always is, that the truth is important. And the truth is that it's difficult to make a Biblical case for total abstinence. It's possible to tell the truth about that and to still make an extremely strong case for total abstinence.

[bonnie]

Will we be offered or have acess to these "refreshments" in heaven?

Sitting around a large tabel with God having a beer or two.Maybe wine,whiskey or??

Somehow can't picture it

[Gary K]

Very good point, Bonnie.

[Bravus]

Do we want to talk about what we can imagine, or about what the Bible says?