Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[Bravus]

Like breathing? Sleeping? Speaking?

[Overaged]

In response to:

Poster: Bravus

Subject: Re: Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

You guys are all focusing on the 'medication' benefits of alcohol - which might be unsurprising since most of you have testified that you've used it to self-medicate in the past. But projecting your own experience on to others is unhelpful.

That's not what I had in mind at all: I was talking about the aesthetic benefits, the sheer enjoyment. (There's a whole other rant for another day about the 'medicalisation' of food and drink and its reduction to a set of nutrients rather than a blessing to be enjoyed.)

There are massive differences in taste between a glass of wine and a glass of grape juice. The fermentation and cellaring processes lead to a very rich, complex flavour in wine that is really not available in anything else. Same for beer - there is an immense range of different kinds of beers, with an amazing range of flavours, and nothing else tastes like it.

By all means feel free to say 'it's not to my taste, I don't like it'. There are lots of things I don't like the taste of. But I happen to enjoy the taste of wine and beer. I'm not drinking it to medicate any condition or balm my soul, I'm drinking it because it tastes good and because I don't believe that doing so is against God's will.

Bravus, usually I agree with you, but sometimes with qualifications.

This time -

No Qualifications

Jawge

Is it God's will that we eat or drink anything just because it tastes good? Hmmm seems like a "qualification" to me. I am still waiting for you & Bravus to answer why/how the Bible supports drinking of alcohol. IF the Bible actually did not say anything about not imbibing; why does that mean that it advises people that it is "OK?" You have both come up with a long and growing list of side-issues, but lets get down to where "the rubber hits the road," and actualle see how the Bible views use of alcohol. IN CONTEXT.

I might add that the brief quote you gave that was supposed to be "medical evidence;" that drinking booze is good for you; or "ok to do," is a far cry from being definitive proof. I was a certified fitness appraiser for several years, and in nursing for many years, with university level training in health & nutrition; and there is lots of medical evidence to counter what you said there; because what you said was way out of CONTEXT, "medically speaking." And just because you are a Doctor; it does not follow that your training in food & nutrition is the best. It is a common occurence for doctors to be poorly trained in this area. I don't mean that disrespectfully; it's just that the way you hurled that brief paragraph at us I got to thinking that maybe we actually can learn a little from one another. And yes; if I break my arm from cycling, and you are in the area; I will still come to you to get patched up!!

Lets give it a try, and start with the Bible - shall we?

My priority is what the Bible says. How does God's Word really treat the subject of drinking alcohol?

[Overaged]

Like breathing? Sleeping? Speaking?

LOL, with some people, the "speaking" part might be a good idea!!

[Bravus]

Yes. Absolutely. It's what I've been asking for all along. Let's start and finish with the Bible. Not medical or scientific evidence, not experience or assumption, not aspersions on others' motives. Let us study together what the Bible actually says about alcohol.

I'll compose a longer post on the topic in which I try to pull together all the relevant texts. It will take a little while, so please be patient. And no doubt others will draw in other texts that they deem relevant.

But yes, this is what it's all about.

[Overaged]

I have been working on a similar study for a week or so, and will be ready to post some of it soon too. I am looking forward to it.

[Bravus]

I started with texts listed in this discussion, going through all 27 pages. I’ll list them without commentary first, quoting them in full. I’ve copied and pasted where possible to save time, so though I tend to use the KJV for preference there is some variance.

I’ve mostly put them in chronological order of their citing in the thread, but with one variation: I’ve separated them into those that directly mention wine, strong drink or any other term for alcohol and those that are being used more ostensively to establish principles about health.

Texts directly mentioning wine or strong drink:

Proverbs 9:1-6 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars: She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table. She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city, Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him, Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled. Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23:31-33 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.

Pro 31:6-7 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Proverbs 23:20, 21 Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.

Genesis 9:21 He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent.

Genesis 19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father."

Habakkuk 2:15 "Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink — you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness!

Isaiah 19:14 The Lord has mingled within her a spirit of confusion, and they will make Egypt stagger in all its deeds, as a drunken man staggers in his vomit.

Psalm 60:3 You have made your people see hard things; you have given us wine to drink that made us stagger.

Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.

1 Tim. 3:2-3 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

1 Timothy 5:23 No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

Isaiah 5:11 Woe to those who rise early in the morning, that they may run after strong drink, who tarry late into the evening as wine inflames them!

Isaiah 28:7 These also reel with wine and stagger with strong drink; the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink, they are swallowed by wine, they stagger with strong drink, they reel in vision, they stumble in giving judgment.

Leviticus 10:9-11 "Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations. You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean, and you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the Lord has spoken to them by Moses."

Numbers 6:2-4 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried. All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins.

Judges 13:3-5 And the angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, "Behold, you are barren and have not borne children, but you shall conceive and bear a son. Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. No razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb, and he shall begin to save Israel from the hand of the Philistines."

Ecclesiastes 2:2 NLT "After much thought, I decided to cheer myself with wine. And while still seeking wisdom, I clutched at foolishness. In this way, I tried to experience the only happiness most people find during their brief life in this world."

1 Cor. 6:9-10 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

"So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."1 Corinthians 10:31 NLT

Texts that do not speak directly about wine or strong drink:

1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

1 Corinthians 3:16,17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2 Chronicles 20:20 Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper. (This was used as a way of insisting that EGW’s counsel on this issue be followed.)

"Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (1 Thess. 5:19-21) (as was this)

Isaiah 5:20 NKJV "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

I have also omitted posting here another 9 texts quoted by LifeHisCost in establishing various points that seemed to me to be fairly fair outside the scope of this study: he should feel free to bring them back if he thinks they're relevant.

[Bravus]

For starters, then, let's see whether there are more texts that need to be on the table. Let's look at the full breadth of the Biblical evidence, and then figure out where to start in on it.

[John317]

(quoting): Pro 31:6-7 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

What is this verse saying? Is it a command to give alcohol to people who are dying or poor?

Or in light of verse 4, is it saying that alcohol is only good for people without hope but that people who have responsibilities and must be able to think clearly should not drink alcohol?

Compare it to verse 4:

Proverbs 31:4

It is not for kings, O Lemuel,

it is not for kings to drink wine,

or for rulers to take strong drink,

Notice that verse 4 does not say that kings and rulers may drink moderately but it says "it is not for them to drink wine and strong drink."

[Bravus]

Yes, I enjoyed your comments on the juxtaposition of these two texts earlier, John317. Might be worth linking back to that post for those interested in reading further.

In terms of making a positive case for using alcohol, I think Proverbs 31:6-7 is a pretty weak one, since it is a prescription for a narrow set of special (hopeless) cases. It's often brought forward in this context, but I'm not advancing it that way, just trying to collate all the evidence.

I think your contextual study with the earlier verses on kings and alcohol is convincing on these texts, but less so on kings... but I don't want to get sidetracked into dozens of tiny discussions on individual texts just yet.

[Overaged]

Yes, I enjoyed your comments on the juxtaposition of these two texts earlier, John317. Might be worth linking back to that post for those interested in reading further.

In terms of making a positive case for using alcohol, I think Proverbs 31:6-7 is a pretty weak one, since it is a prescription for a narrow set of special (hopeless) cases. It's often brought forward in this context, but I'm not advancing it that way, just trying to collate all the evidence.

I think your contextual study with the earlier verses on kings and alcohol is convincing on these texts, but less so on kings... but I don't want to get sidetracked into dozens of tiny discussions on individual texts just yet.

Further, in speaking about that "juxtaposition" Bravus; I was wondering if you have done any study on the actual "drink" that is being talked about in Prov 31? Have you though about the specific type of drink, or content thereof, and what the Bible is intending to say to us in relation to the type & content of "drink" in that text?

I do have another question too, if I may? You stated "I don't want to get sidetracked into dozens of tiny discussions on individual texts just yet," but even before I read that post; I was thinking to myself how hard it will be to study "all" of the possible texts at once? I think as long as we are fleshing out the context of each text in the list as it grows, then we are studying the Bible on this topic.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

We give up things because we trust that He knows what is best for us.

Shane,

To turn it around a bit ... does it mean that people who don't do everything that God says do not love God?

We obey God because we trust Him - not to prove our love for Him (although it may do that, that is not our motivation for obedience).

The reason we disobey God is because we believe our will will better serve us than His will. God says do not steal but we see something we want, we don't have the money, so we decide stealing would better serve us than going without.

Obeying God means we agree that His vision for our lives is better than our vision and we pray that our vision becomes the same as His.

[Bravus]

You stated "I don't want to get sidetracked into dozens of tiny discussions on individual texts just yet," but even before I read that post; I was thinking to myself how hard it will be to study "all" of the possible texts at once? I think as long as we are fleshing out the context of each text in the list as it grows, then we are studying the Bible on this topic.

This just expresses a preference of mine, and others are free to disregard it if they wish. A frustration to me has been that the discussion has been very unsystematic: I sometimes refer to it as 'rabbit chasing' (no disrespect intended to anyone, including dogs!) If we're to gain clarity, it would be better to gather all of the evidence together and then work through it in some systematic way, rather than piecemeal. I have a number of possible ideas for a systematic division of the texts listed in my long post above, but am happy to be guided by others. I do think it's worthwhile trying to make sure we have all the evidence before us first: call it the 'discovery' phase.

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Further, in speaking about that "juxtaposition" Bravus; I was wondering if you have done any study on the actual "drink" that is being talked about in Prov 31? Have you though about the specific type of drink, or content thereof, and what the Bible is intending to say to us in relation to the type & content of "drink" in that text?

I haven't put a lot of thought into it. As Shane pointed out earlier, distillation was not known in Bible times, so 'strong drink' does not mean distilled spirits. 'Wine' means wine, though there is some discussion of just how high the alcohol concentration was in 'yayin' (Bacchiochi makes much of this). 'Strong drink' may mean beer or some other fermented product not made from grape juice. I'm happy to stipulate that the whole chapter *is* talking about alcoholic drinks, probably of relatively low (maybe 2-10%) concentration. Any further light you can shed on this would be great.

[Overaged]

True; there is a difference between "fermentation" and "distillation." What kind of references can we use to show this, and anything else that the text is saying to us today about alcoholic beverages? There is much more conveyed in the Bible texts than this aspect of whether or not it is "distilled" or "fermented." I will have to get into that later as I am on my last 5 seconds of internet time for tonight.

What is your idea on a "systematic study" of so many different texts in the list, as it exists so far? To me; it seems easier to take one text/passage at a time, and study both it's various contexts and meanings, including but certainly not limited to "word studies." Samual B maybe had a downfall in over-emphasizing the "word study" aspect; but that does not mean it is optional in our study here either.

[Bravus]

True; there is a difference between "fermentation" and "distillation." What kind of references can we use to show this, and anything else that the text is saying to us today about alcoholic beverages? There is much more conveyed in the Bible texts than this aspect of whether or not it is "distilled" or "fermented." I will have to get into that later as I am on my last 5 seconds of internet time for tonight.

I'm not sure where you're heading with this, and will look forward to finding out. Since distillation was discovered in the first century AD and Proverbs is believed to have been written hundreds of years earlier, it is clear that the reference is not to distilled spirits, any more than it is to iPhones. I hope we can include common sense in our study.

Perhaps your focus is on whether the 'wine' described in this chapter is fermented at all? That's an interesting double-edged sword for the abstinence-advocate: it makes Verse 6-7 easier to deal with but means s/he can't rely on Verses 4-5 as an injunction against all alcoholic drinks (it seems improbable that the author would switch what was meant by a term within a line or two).

Anyway, I look forward to further discussion around this issue - and please forgive my guesses!

Originally Posted By: Overaged

What is your idea on a "systematic study" of so many different texts in the list, as it exists so far? To me; it seems easier to take one text/passage at a time, and study both it's various contexts and meanings, including but certainly not limited to "word studies." Samual B maybe had a downfall in over-emphasizing the "word study" aspect; but that does not mean it is optional in our study here either.

Here's the kind of thing I was thinking about - among other things simply because a detailed text-by-text study of the quite large body of evidence would take us forever:

I'm suggesting this as a 'way in' to make a start, not a way of disposing of inconvenient evidence. If someone else would like to propose another systematic approach I'd be very open to that.

I suggest that we leave on the side of our plates, just for the moment, all those texts that don't explicitly mention alcohol, drinking etc. That includes the 'temple of God' one and a few others. It's not that they don't have force or aren't important, but what we're embarking on here is a study of what the Bible says about alcohol. It makes sense to me to look first at texts that address that issue directly.

Second, I suggest that we leave on the side of our plates, just for the moment, all those texts that we can all agree are specifically injunctions against drunkenness and getting drunk. There will be some grey areas, but we'll keep those ones in play. The reason for this 'cut' is that no-one here is arguing that drunkenness is OK: everyone has stipulated from Day 1 that the Bible is not OK with drunkenness.

That will leave us, I believe, with a managable subset of texts to look at in more detail. I'll edit this post in a minute with my version of that sublist, and others can argue the call as they see fit.

It's not a strategic move on my part to try to 'win' by setting the terms of the debate. It's a suggestion for a systematic approach that will mean the issue gets the thoughtful attention it deserves. We can definitely return to the texts that talk about health, lifestyle and obedience more broadly later.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23:31-33 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

Leviticus 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.

Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.

Proverbs 31:6-7 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Deuteronomy 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Habakkuk 2:15 "Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink — you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness!

1 Tim. 3:2-3 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

1 Timothy 5:23 No longer drink water exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

Leviticus 10:9-11 "Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations. You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean, and you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the Lord has spoken to them by Moses."

Numbers 6:2-4 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried. All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins.

Judges 13:3-5 And the angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, "Behold, you are barren and have not borne children, but you shall conceive and bear a son. Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. No razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb, and he shall begin to save Israel from the hand of the Philistines."

Ecclesiastes 2:2 NLT "After much thought, I decided to cheer myself with wine. And while still seeking wisdom, I clutched at foolishness. In this way, I tried to experience the only happiness most people find during their brief life in this world."

[Bravus]

That gets us down to 13, but the two in Proverbs are actually parts of the same section, so can (and probably should) be considered together. We've already made a start on that, so it might make sense to continue with that discussion.

The two in 1 Timothy could probably likewise be considered together to some extent, although they are further apart in the letter.

The two texts about the Nazirites can probably also be addressed together as one issue.

Again, all of these are tentative suggestions for ways forward, not attempts to control the discussion.

[Bravus]

Proverbs 31 is split into two parts, the first on the wisdom of kings and the second on the characteristics of a virtuous woman. I'm blessed enough to be married to a virtuous woman, so the second half of the chapter is very important to me, but for our purposes here the full context is the first half of the book of Proverbs 31.

I'll quote both the NIV and KJV versions of these few verses:

Proverbs 31:1-9 (NIV)

1 The sayings of King Lemuel—an inspired utterance his mother taught him.

2 Listen, my son! Listen, son of my womb! Listen, my son, the answer to my prayers!

3 Do not spend your strength on women, your vigor on those who ruin kings.

4 It is not for kings, Lemuel— it is not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer,

5 lest they drink and forget what has been decreed, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.

6 Let beer be for those who are perishing, wine for those who are in anguish!

7 Let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.

8 Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.

9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Proverbs 31: 1-9 (KJV)

1 The words of king Lemuel, the prophecy that his mother taught him.

2 What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?

3 Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.

4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

8 Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.

9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

[doug yowell]

Masculine bovine excrement.

I, for one, have many reasons for drinking.

Jawge

Are they the same as your reasons for using the verbage you've chosen here? I'm not convinced that you have many reasons for drinking. Judging by your statements I'd have to conclude that you really have only one.

[doug yowell]

so far, so good.

[Dr. Shane]

Everyone here seems to be agreeing that drunkenness is condemned by the Bible. So all that is being debated is drinking no more than one drink per hour so that one does not pass the legal limit of intoxication. We know that once we get to intoxication our judgment becomes impaired which is why drunkenness is condemned in the first place. When drunk, we let down our guard to all sorts of temptations.

I find it hard to believe that so many people want to drink alcoholic beverages at such a slow rate to avoid getting a buzz. I find the "taste" argument a little hard to swallow. I almost think some may be drinking just to prove they can. I mean, come on, someone actually enjoys *one* martini? What kind of enjoyment comes from *one* martini?

[Bravus]

This is why I said what I said before, and why it was not a cheap shot. You're saying here that you struggle to imagine drinking alcohol for reasons other than intoxication. And it's fair enough to say that. But you're then using that statement about your own experience and imagination and using it to make inferences about the motivations of others. And those inferences are incorrect.

[John317]

I'm not going by just my own experience but by lots of people I drank with. If you sat at the bar and told everyone that you come there just for the taste of one beer or a martini, and that you have absolutely no wish for a "buzz," I could guarantee you that people would generally disbelieve you and such a comment would raise a laugh.

Now it could be that you really feel that way, but that's really unusual. Do you think that the liquer industry would make the money it makes if most people only drank that way? If you ever go into a bar, check out how many people leave after ordering a single beer or one martini. It does happen, but it is relatively rare for the same person to do it repeatedly.

For every person who does it as a habit, how many people do you think have a habit of buying a six pack and drinking it almost every night? I've known many people who did this, but I never knew anyone who would only drink one or two beers or a martini and then stop every time they drank and were careful never to feel a buzz. If that is what they drink for, it would probably make more sense if they drank a non-alcoholic beer or wine.

From the wikipedia--

Quote:

A non-alcoholic beverage is a beverage that contains less than 0.5% alcohol by volume. Non-alcoholic versions of alcoholic beverages — cocktails ("mocktails"), non-alcoholic beer ("near beer"), champagnes, and dealcoholized wine — are widely available where alcoholic beverages are normally served.

Well-known examples of non-alcoholic cocktails include the Shirley Temple cocktail, the Virgin Mary, and the virgin styles of the Piña Colada. Sodas, juices, and sparkling ciders have no alcohol, but non-alcoholic beer and non-alcoholic wine drinks undergo an alcohol removal process that may leave a small amount of alcohol; so in some states there are legal restrictions concerning non-alcoholic wine and beer.

[Bravus]

The non-alcoholic equivalents I've tasted have universally been foul-tasting pale imitations of the real thing. Not for the 'buzz', for the taste.

Let's get back to the Bible study.

[Overaged]

Bravus; I have been following all the posts since I last posted here; and I just have a few seconds right now; but I have to say that it is my opinion that IF we were to all adopt your version of "systematic" Bible study on this topic, that it would likely be a very unbalanced discussion. All this talk by some of the participants who imbibe, including yourself, about "not imposing our experience on others" or "only the texts that say "strong drink" etc etc is a way by which the psychology surrounding the drinking experience is effectively eliminated from the discussion; and that is not right to do here. The Bible places great emphasis on this aspect of alcoholic beverages, and it just isn't fair to try to control the discussion away from such texts.

I do understand what you are trying to do - you are trying to eliminate what some here appear to class as the subjective aspects of drinking alcoholic beverages; and that might be a bit helpful in some cases. I just think that here, we should be able to consider the WHOLE story so that any texts we do discuss are in the correct cultural, emotional, phsychiatric, and spiritual context.

On a national level; and on a personal level, drinking alcohol always has it's effects, and with some, those effects will be less or more; but when you get a population that asks for a leader who supports drinking alcohol and getting drunk; it always spells trouble. Infact, the Bible called such leaders/prophets a liar:

Mic 2:11 The only prophet you want is a liar who will say, "Drink and get drunk!" (CEV)

I think that a similar counterpart today to this would be people in a church who want a doctrine that lies the same way as the prophets referred to in Micah lied about alcohol and drinking. Today we want doctrines, beliefs, and practices that lie about what God's truth (Word) says to us; especially about our little pet indulgences. God sometimes gives us what we want even if He knows it not really for the best. I beleive this is the case with alcoholic beverages, and that in context, the majority of Bible texts about alcohol or related to alcohol would support that idea.

*please let it be duly noted that I call no one here a liar; I am addressing only ideas, beliefs and customs.

[John317]

What kind of wine do you believe Jesus made at Cana-- alcoholic or non-alcoholic?

[Bravus]

Actually, before we do, I'm not sure where this 'any more than one drink equals drunkenness' notion is coming from. Shane cited the Californian drink-driving law, which seems odd since he's from Texas. As far as I can determine from the web, both California and Texas have a 0.08% BAC level for DUI/DWI.

Australia used to have that level, and it equates to 3 standard drinks in the first hour and one per hour thereafter. Australia has now lowered the limit to 0.05, which is 2 drinks in the first hour and one per hour thereafter. To have a limit of 1 drink in the first hour and 1 per hour thereafter, California would have to have lowered its limit to about 0.03.

And this is to pilot a 2 ton hunk of steel at 60 mph, not to pilot an armchair.

So staying below 0.08, the limit in Texas, would mean 5 drinks over 3 hours... which I think you'll find *many* people would do.

I don't want to divert off into defining exactly the point at which 'moderate use' becomes 'drunkenness', but I'm also not keen to have that defined by stealth as one drink per evening.