Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[John317]

For anyone who is interested in reading Bacchiocchi's book online, here's the link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7818027/Wine-in-the-Bible-unabridged-by-Samuele-Bacchiocchi

[Bravus]

More rabbits to chase (Cana) at this time, I'm afraid. I'm hunting Proverbs 31 fairly singlemindedly for a while now.

Overaged, I understand your point, but again, you are making claims about what God says about drinking prior to proving those claims from the Bible. *That's* what I'm focused on, and I'm not gameplaying or trying to win.

What does the Bible SAY?!

[John317]

Would it make sense for a preacher to tell his congregation that they should not get high on cocaine and then for someone to say they think the preacher means moderate use of cocaine is OK?

[John317]

What are the texts in Scripture which you believe teach that it is God's will for believers to drink alcohol?

I'm not talking about a command from God to drink alcohol but rather any Bible verses which teach that it is OK to drink alcohol.

[Bravus]

What are the texts in Scripture which you believe teach that it is God's will for believers to drink alcohol?

Please do try to follow what happens in the overall discussion (I mean that politely): I know it's difficult when a lot of pages appear each day and we're all busy.

I've said it clearly and said it multiple times: there is no Biblical command *to* drink alcohol. And there are plenty of Biblical commands to avoid drunkenness. But I do not believe there are Biblical texts that require complete abstinence. In that sense, I have to prove a negative rather than a positive. I cannot provide a text that says 'Thou shalt drink alcohol'. But I don't have to, because I never claimed I could.

I'm *trying* to consider all of the texts that are typically interpreted as prohibiting the drinking of alcohol in a systematic manner. But no-one seems willing to join in that endeavour.

If the Biblical case against moderate use is as slam-dunk as you all seem to assume, wouldn't it make sense to work harder to make that Biblical case?

[John317]

More rabbits to chase (Cana) at this time, I'm afraid. I'm hunting Proverbs 31 fairly singlemindedly for a while now.

No rabbit. I'm trying to understand your view of wine in the Bible. It only takes a simple "yes" or "no."

My own answer is that the wine the Son of God performed a miracle to make was non-alcholic.

Wine in the Bible can be either alcoholic or non-alcoholic.

[John317]

..I'm *trying* to consider all of the texts that are typically interpreted as prohibiting the drinking of alcohol in a systematic manner. But no-one seems willing to join in that endeavour.

If the Biblical case against moderate use is as slam-dunk as you all seem to assume, wouldn't it make sense to work harder to make that Biblical case?

Bacchiocchi's book can be studied online. He makes the case for abstinance from alcohol. What part of his case do you disagree with? He treats of every verse in the Bible dealing with the topic.

[Bravus]

I've read Bacchiocchi's book in the past. I could go back to it and line-by-line it, but I'd prefer to go straight to the source and study the Bible for ourselves.

Edit: I do recommend that all participants in this thread read Bacchiocchi's book for themselves. They should see whether they find his Biblical interpretations convincing, and also whether they believe he has gone to the Bible *to find out what it says* or *to support a position at which he had already arrived and about which he had already convinced himself*. In other words, was he involved in exegesis or eisegesis?

We will also arrive at all the texts he examines in the course of a systematic consideration of the Biblical evidence.

[John317]

I've said it clearly and said it multiple times: there is no Biblical command *to* drink alcohol. And there are plenty of Biblical commands to avoid drunkenness. But I do not believe there are Biblical texts that require complete abstinence. In that sense, I have to prove a negative rather than a positive. I cannot provide a text that says 'Thou shalt drink alcohol'. But I don't have to, because I never claimed I could.

I never suggested that you provide a text that says "thou shalt drink alcohol." I am asking you what texts about alcohol lead you to conclude that the Bible teaches moderation in drinking alcohol. If someone were to ask you about drinking, what is the first verse that would come to mind that expresses your viewpoint on it?

[Overaged]

More rabbits to chase (Cana) at this time, I'm afraid. I'm hunting Proverbs 31 fairly singlemindedly for a while now.

Overaged, I understand your point, but again, you are making claims about what God says about drinking prior to proving those claims from the Bible. *That's* what I'm focused on, and I'm not gameplaying or trying to win.

What does the Bible SAY?!

Bravus; what is your internet yelling (huge fonts) for?

I think this post you made is quite off base. I gave you one Bible verse, and some brief comment about that verse. is there some reason why you won't just explain why what I said was wrong? Do you feel I misapplied the verse in Micah? God says something about drinking in this text from Micah. I did not make any claim about what God says prior to proving it at all. It's right there in the text I gave you what God says. How can you accuse me of making it up?

[Bravus]

The shouting is the fruit of frustration, of having to try to explain the same thing over and over again. Forgive me: I'll calm down and stick to standard size fonts.

Edit: I didn't accuse you of making anything up. (Or if I did, I did it unintentionally and I apologise and withdraw the suggestion.) I wasn't talking about the verse from Micah, I was talking about the rest of your post in my comments.

I'd be delighted to talk about that text in Micah, in context, at some point. For right now, though, I'm going to focus on Proverbs 31. Apologies if that is unsatisfying to people, but it's been brought up and it's interesting, and I just can't cope (my fault) with a discussion that is inconclusively all over the shop. We need to look at the Bible text in a serious way.

[Bravus]

So. Proverbs 31:1-9. What do you believe is the theme of this passage? What is it *about*?

[John317]

....Edit: I do recommend that all participants in this thread read Bacchiocchi's book for themselves. They should see whether they find his Biblical interpretations convincing, and also whether they believe he has gone to the Bible *to find out what it says* or *to support a position at which he had already arrived and about which he had already convinced himself*. In other words, was he involved in exegesis or eisegesis

Great idea. I agree.

I assume that since you read his book before, you concluded that you did not agree with him.

What parts of his book-- or concerning what verses of the Bible-- did you find yourself in disagreement with him?

In other words, where do you believe he was involved in eisegesis?

[Bravus]

Nup. No rabbits. Proverbs 31.

[Bravus]

(Off to learn Green's Theorem as a way of converting line integrals into double integrals and vice versa, and to make a start in flux of vector fields in 2D and 3D for a while, so I won't be replying for a couple of hours.)

[John317]

You keep mentioning Prov. 31. Tell what you see in it that leads you to think the Bible is there suggesting that is is OK for us to drink wine or strong drink moderately?

[Overaged]

(Off to learn Green's Theorem as a way of converting line integrals into double integrals and vice versa, and to make a start in flux of vector fields in 2D and 3D for a while, so I won't be replying for a couple of hours.)

Don't forget to brush up on idiopathic thrombo-cytopenic purpura while you are at it. I heard at a recent symposium that it happens when you don't put your thinking cap on straight.

[John317]

King Lemuel's mother is giving him advice on being a good king. She is concerned to tell him what destroys kings so that he will avoid those things. Her first counsel deals with women and immorality.

She tells him next not to drink alcohol-- no wine and no strong drink. She says that drinking those things will cause him to forget the law and pervert justice. Notice that there's no indication here whatsoever that it is OK to drink moderately. It is not telling the king that as long as he doesn't get drunk, it is fine for him to drink alcohol.

Next, Lemuel's mother tells him that if he is going to give alcohol to anyone, give it to people who are dying or in a hopeless situation so they will forget reality.

This is not an endorsement for using alcohol to release everyday stress or relieve common pain. It is actually showing that alcohol is not good for anyone except those who are about to die and have no hope.

Does anyone think they help the poor by giving them alcohol to drink? It usually leads to greater poverty and even crime.

Finally, Lemuel's mother counsels him to plead the cause of the poor and the needy.

But if Lemuel forgets his mother's wise counsel, and starts drinking alcohol, he will not be effective in pleading the cause of the poor and needy. If he drinks alcohol, he is likely to forget the law of God and pervert justice.

If this is good counsel for a king and a prince, it would also be wise counsel for anyone who intends to be a responsible citizen and use good judgment in all his work and life.

[Bravus]

In brief, between Problems 4 and 5 on the worksheet: IMO the *theme* of these verses is justice and sound judgement on the part of the king. Alcohol is discussed along with other issues in the light of that theme. That theme was the author's intended focus. I'm not going to use that to 'explain away' the words about alcohol, but if we are taking the Word seriously the theme is a relevant place to start.

3 more questions to do, then I'll come back and address the issues around alcohol in Proverbs 31.

[Bravus]

(leaving the 10 questions on surface integrals as a treat for tomorrow morning)

[Bravus]

Righto - mostly finished, but left a little more for the morning... I'm getting it, but it's hard work and I'm tired...

OK, Proverbs 31:1-9.

First, let's dispense with something. I am *not* using this passage, and particularly verses 6 and 7, as a positive argument *for* the use of alcohol or as permission to use it. That's not my goal at all. I know some people use it that way, but I find the almost dismissive, parenthetical nature of these verses as a side thought to the overall discussion: 'alcohol is not for you as king, but it might be OK for some other people in extremis'. I agree with what John317 posted above: it's hard to extend this prescription for the dying and miserable to everyone.

So that deals with that issue. I'm not using this passage to make the positive case. I'm addressing it as part of making the (double) negative case of 'no prohibition' on the moderate use of alcohol in Scripture.

Now, there's a bit of a logical conundrum in the idea that we should avoid generalising from the stricken to everyone (verses 6 and 7) but should generalise from the king to everyone (verses 4 and 5). People sometimes use the 'priests and kings' text from the New Testament to make that connection, but that seems like a long bow to draw to me. But I'm not going to rely on this logical inconsistency in the arguments put forward either.

Lemuel's mother tells him not to drink. What reason does she give?

Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.

Two things to note here:

1. The motivation is justice - something I can definitely get behind.

2. The reason given is 'so they will not forget the law'.

To take the second first - one or two drinks will not make the king forget the law. Getting drunk will make the king forget the law. When we look at the actual motivation and reasoning, this text is another precept against drunkenness, not moderate use, even if it doesn't specifically use that word.

The first part is that king's should not drink when they are charged with making judgements that effected the rights of others. For kings that's an everyday event, but for many of us, depending on our work, it's much less so. Avoiding drinking to levels and at times that might effect our judgement in ways that afflict others is excellent counsel.

This is one of the strongest texts used to promote prohibition, but it requires a number of assumptions and logical stretches to reach that position based on it.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane cited the Californian drink-driving law, which seems odd since he's from Texas.

[Dr. Shane]

I wish people would quit projecting their own issues onto others. If someone says it's for taste, than so be it and quit the insinuation of 'their lying'. If you or others can't get enjoyment from just 'one', thats your issue!

I have heard many claim they just drink it for taste, only to see them in a 12-Step meeting a few years later admitting it wasn't just for taste.

Alcohol is cunning, baffling and powerful. It leads many to self-deception. They do not even realize that what they are saying is simply not true. In essence, they believe their own lies about their drinking.

Now if someone can say they never drink enough to get a buzz. That is a good indicator that they do not have a drinking problem. That would mean no more than one drink per hour. Does a person drink less than 12 ounces of beer per hour at a micro-brewery? Do they drink less than five ounces of wine per hour at a small winery?

[Dr. Shane]

According to the CDC, 40% of Americans do not drink at all. I bring this up because that is far more than the number of Adventists and other Christian faiths that oppose drinking. So Adventists wanting to drink are not just being like "others" in society. 4 out of 10 people in society don't drink.

[doug yowell]

I find it hard to believe that so many people want to drink alcoholic beverages at such a slow rate to avoid getting a buzz. I find the "taste" argument a little hard to swallow. I almost think some may be drinking just to prove they can. I mean, come on, someone actually enjoys *one* martini? What kind of enjoyment comes from *one* martini?

Taste can be acquired. I only know one person (one of my sister-in-laws that doesn't drink)that said that they they actually liked the taste of beer the first time they tasted it.Even without the taste factor many drink as a method of feeling better (relaxed,ect..)There are those who love to smoke cigarettes too. I think it entirely "possible" that alcohol even in small doses begins the process of creating the breakdown of the mental,spiritual, and physical faculties even when drunkenness does not occur.The fact that 2 beers in an hour can get you arrested if driving in California (.08)demonstrates that even the secular world can detect the dangers to society posed by moderate alcohol use.No one arrested at .08 "feels" altered even though the law says different.