Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[Gary K]

Bravus,

with all the advice we have against drinking, and how what is quoted as being for drinking in the Bible is for very specific issues that fall outside of the norm, I just see the Bible as saying, don't touch alcohol.

It's like the text in Proverbs that says to give wine to those with heavy hearts. Well, Strong's says the Hebrew word interpreted as heavy meant bitter. I think we can all agree that getting drunk, or even drinking in moderation, doesn't solve any problems that have caused ayone to become bitter. So, I think there is something there that we don't understand. There must be something that the Jews/Hebrews of that day understood in the context of their culture and that we miss.

[bonnie]

Do we want to talk about what we can imagine, or about what the Bible says?

Pretty simple question.

Do you believe we will have acess to alcohol in heaven? If so,it really isn't imagination to believe you could sit down and have a beer with God.

If it would not be appropriate for heaven how would I be fit for heaven hanging on to my beer?

[Bravus]

I just don't know. The Bible is silent on the question. Sitting down for a beer with Jesus would be one of the most awesome things I can imagine. But I realise it's just imagination because I just don't know. Similarly, the fact that you apparently can't imagine doing so says nothing about the issue at hand. It only says something about your imagination.

[bonnie]

I just don't know. The Bible is silent on the question. Sitting down for a beer with Jesus would be one of the most awesome things I can imagine. But I realise it's just imagination because I just don't know. Similarly, the fact that you apparently can't imagine doing so says nothing about the issue at hand. It only says something about your imagination.

It may be imagination to you,your opinion. I can think of many awesome things to sit and talk with God about,but I see nothing awesome about a beer drinking God.

The bible is silent about other specifics,but can easily be understood by reading the whole.

It does not say you can't smoke a cigar either.Perhaps God would have his favorite cuban cigar with his beer.

[there buster]

For thousands of years, beer was one of the few ways to preserve grain, and thus carbohydrates. In those centuries, before germ theory was understood, it was not always easy to find safe drinking water. Beer's relatively low alcohol content made it safe to drink, and it was, as indicated, a rich source of carbohydrates often available in a drought or during winter when other sources of food were scarce. It is impossible to know how many were saved from starvation or severe malnutrition by beer.

I personally have never had a beer, the smell alone repels me. I have no desire to drink beer. But the more research I did into the life of Jacob for my book, the more I began to understand the value of beer to the ancients. Did it also result in some terrible results? Certainly. But so does sugar today. Martin Luther drank beer, and was a great force for good and for God. I don't excuse it, I don't encourage it, but the facts force me to acknowledge it.

What's even more ironic, from an Adventist point of view, is what largely replaced beer in Holland and England, and fueled great advances in science and technology.

[bonnie]

My dad had a IQ level of a near genius.I believe it was 137 0r 138. As kids we thought he knew the answer to everything.

He said the most important thing to remember was when those of high intellect felt the need to bring God down to their level it was time to leave the party.

A beer drinking God to me is bringing him down to my level.

[Dr. Shane]

I think it's very easy to make a Biblical case against drunkenness.

I think it's very hard to make a Biblical case for complete abstinence.

I agree with this except I think that for those that believe in the sanctuary doctrine, it doesn't end there.

If Earth's history post-1844 is the anti-typical Day of Atonement, than we are living during a time when we are to be "fasting" and preparing for the coming of our Lord. Of course, we cannot literally fast until Jesus comes as we would die of starvation. So our fast takes a different form like abstaining from alcohol and eating meat.

[Dr. Shane]

How then must these verses be understood:

Pro 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

Pro 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Clearly these verses are talking about a medicinal use for alcohol. Strong drink here is being used as a pain killer and wine is being used as an anti-depressant - presumably for the dying. Alcohol is a very poor anti-depressant. It can actually increase or cause depression. So I can't see it being recommended for anyone other than the dying.

[fccool]

There is no solid Biblical case. Just like with having multiple women, God allowed people to partake in Shekar. It's rather puzzling, but it seems that God chosen not to sweat certain things.

[LifeHiscost]

But if the Bible is to be our rule of faith and practice, then we'd better know what it says and tell the truth about what it says.

It is a known fact that a little alcohol, inebriates a little.

"So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God."1 Corinthians 10:31 NLT

As fallen human beings, we're not talking about absolutes. We're talking about the ability to put this marvelous machinery God formed to the best possible use available to us.

One can put diesel in a gas tank, but if he/she wants to get the best possible performance, gas is usually the best option.

As to the one who just wishes to spite the Creator, there is always an option.

"Don’t you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself..."1 Cor 6:18 NLT

"If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."1 Corinthians 3:16 NKJV

God blesses!

[John317]

That's just it-- like you say, God also permitted men to have more than one woman as wife, but does that mean it would be OK for us to go out and find a second and third wife or maybe a thousand wives like Solomon had?

As Paul told the Athenians, God has "winked" at many things, but His winking at things is coming to an end. He now commands all people everywhere to repent and change their ways.

He allowed people in the past to do a lot of things that He doesn't want us to do. For instance, David literally got away with murder-- that is, with taking the life of a lot of people simply because of their nationality or race. David's last act as king was to take revenge on someone instead of forgiving him. Does that mean God would be pleased if we gave order just before we die for someone to be killed because, like David, we feel they did us harm and deserved to die? I'm pretty sure God would have been pleased if David had forgiven that poor man instead of ordering his death.

We're living today during the antitypical Day of Atonement. The Israelites were to afflict their souls during that time. We can't very well afflict our souls and understand clearly the truths that God has for us during this time if our minds are not clear due to consumption of alcohol.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Do we want to talk about what we can imagine, or about what the Bible says?

Pretty simple question.

Do you believe we will have acess to alcohol in heaven? If so,it really isn't imagination to believe you could sit down and have a beer with God.

If it would not be appropriate for heaven how would I be fit for heaven hanging on to my beer?

As to the Lord's advice, we are to pray thus:

"May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done. May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth,as it is in heaven."Matthew 6:10 NLT

This is a part of the prayer Jesus taught the disciples to pray when they asked Him how to pray. What is the logic that dismisses a knowledge of heaven's desirable characteristics, but in the same breath, enjoins supplication for those characteristics?

God blesses!

[John317]

I stand by my earlier comments: all of them. I have no quibble with all these good commonsense arguments for abstinence. But I'm not seeing anyone make a solid Biblical case.

If anyone wants to see what the Bible teaches on the quesion of the use of alcohol, I suggest they read Samuel Bacchiocchi's book, Wine In the Bible. He looks carefully at every single verse in the Bible that touches on the issue, analying it both linguistically and historically.

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

If a little bit of alcohol is ok, may be a just a little bit of cocaine or speed or heroin is ok?

[Bravus]

Good logic, again. Not Biblical evidence, though.

Sorry to be so stubborn about this, but I do think it's important.

[Gerr]

Well then, how about this: ESV | 1 Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

[Bravus]

Yes, it's an excellent text, and one we ought to know, understand and live by. It encourages us to good food, plenty of water, fresh air, exercise, plenty of sleep, moderation in work and play, avoiding many things, embracing many other things...

As it happens, when taken in the context in which it was written, it's about sexual morality, and honouring God in the way we use our bodies sexually.

To use it as an argument against the moderate use of alcohol is to assume that the moderate use of alcohol is harmful to our bodies. That is circular reasoning, assuming what the text is being cited to prove.

Understand me clearly, yet again, everyone. I am *not* arguing for the moderate use of alcohol. I am arguing that it is very difficult to make a Biblical case for complete abstinence from alcohol.

What the Bible actually says, matters.

[Gerr]

If anyone is looking for a Biblical text that unequivocably prohibits the use of alcohol, then I agree that there is none. But my body, being God's temple, is enough for me to avoid anything that could be detrimental to my body or possibly impair my inhibitions or judgment.

[Dr. Shane]

And for those of us that believe in the sanctuary doctrine, now is the anti-typical Day of Atonement when we are to be afflicting our souls. The teaching of total abstinence during this time in history is much like the vow of the Nazarenes (Samson) who would abstain completely from alcohol. So this teaching (abstinence from alcohol) makes a lot of sense in the framework of Adventist doctrine. A Baptist, on the other hand, would have a much harder time explaining why they believe in total abstinence.

[fccool]

Just tagging on.

If a little bit of alcohol is ok, may be a just a little bit of cocaine or speed or heroin is ok?

This is a typical false slippery slope argument that any pastor eventually propose... just like those man-eating shrimp stories

I mean, seriously? Do I really have to make a distinction between lightly fermented grape juice, and heroine that you injest into your blood stream via needle? Do you see anything wrong with such mentality of exaggeration? I think that's one of the reasons young stay away from churches at miles length. Not because they want to drink or party, but because such comparisons are drawn out.

Is eating an apple with apple seed really the same as popping micro-cyanide caps? Do I really have to explain the difference here?

[fccool]

But my body, being God's temple, is enough for me to avoid anything that could be detrimental to my body or possibly impair my inhibitions or judgment.

Well-said, yet this is a statement that eventually leads to double-triple-quadrupal-standards...

I.e.

- I have to eat some food out of the package

- I have to have a sitting all day job

- I have to live in a crowded and smoggy place

- I have to use non-organic hygienic products like fragrant soaps, colognes, shampoos and etc

- I have to brush with a toothpaste that has poison warnings on it, and drink flouridated and chlorinated water

- I have to use cell-phones that has potential in causing some damage to my body

... etc... etc...

So, when you make the statement that you've made... does it just apply to alcohol and meat ? If the principle of moderation can be applied to the above, then why not to alcohol? Why double standards?

[doug yowell]

I think that's one of the reasons young stay away from churches at miles length. Not because they want to drink or party, but because such comparisons are drawn out.

Nonsense. Young people stay away from church because they want to drink and party and not be made to feel guilty about it.They don't leave the church because they're convinced that a glass of Chardonnay is not as dangerous as a line of coke.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

But my body, being God's temple, is enough for me to avoid anything that could be detrimental to my body or possibly impair my inhibitions or judgment.

Well-said, yet this is a statement that eventually leads to double-triple-quadrupal-standards...

I.e.

- I have to eat some food out of the package

- I have to have a sitting all day job

- I have to live in a crowded and smoggy place

- I have to use non-organic hygienic products like fragrant soaps, colognes, shampoos and etc

- I have to brush with a toothpaste that has poison warnings on it, and drink flouridated and chlorinated water

- I have to use cell-phones that has potential in causing some damage to my body

... etc... etc...

So, when you make the statement that you've made... does it just apply to alcohol and meat ? If the principle of moderation can be applied to the above, then why not to alcohol? Why double standards?

Huh??? I never heard of a girl who got pregnant because she used too much Suave Pomegranate Kiwi Shampoo,or a guy who got in a lot of fights because he ate too many Cheetos.I think I'd go with the double standard on this one.

[bonnie]

If it is thought to be possible that you can sit around the table in heaven with God drinking your budweiser,by all means do it here.

[doug yowell]

you can sit around the table with God drinking your budweiser

Is that a redundancy?