Dr. Shane Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 you make it seem as though the alcoholics have nothing to do with their addiction. Alcohol is to blame. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I know, sounds like nit-picking, but a liquid, even alcohol, does not 'influence' us to do anything. It can alter our self control mechanisms where in we then do and say things that ordinarily we would not. Absolutely right. Being drunk is no defense for anything we do while under the influence. Often times drinking simply lowers our inhibitions so we do things we wouldn't do sober but we would think about doing. Such examples range from sexual immorality to murder. And an important note is that such behavior isn't limited to alcoholics. Anyone can get drunk and do something stupid that they regret later. But I think we all agree the Bible condemns drunkenness. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2011 I agree with you, Shane, but at the same time it is foolishness to say that alcohol does not influence people to do anything. If that was the case, it wouldn't be called "driving under the influence." People's accidents and fights and murder and other crimes are often influenced by alcohol. That's not the same as excusing what people do when under the influence of alcohol, because they chose to drink, yet it is not denying that alcohol infuences people to do things they wouldn't have done without that influence. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2011 While in the army in Germany, I smoked both marijuana and hashish but never got high on either one, although everyone else was getting high on them, even a few junior officers. But I got high and drunk fairly easily on alcohol many times. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2011 Here's a man who has been very much influenced by alcohol and is probably sorry that he ever took his first drink. I'm sure his family is sorry. Just because we say someone has been influenced by drugs or alcohol is no indication that anyone is taking away their responsibility for doing what they do or say while under the influence. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Homeless man with "golden voice" checking into rehab – Wed Jan 12, 5:07 pm ET LOS ANGELES (Reuters) – A homeless man who became a YouTube sensation for his "golden voice" will check into rehab for treatment of alcohol and drug dependency, representatives for the "Dr Phil" show said on Wednesday. Ted Williams, 53, made the decision to enter a private rehabilitation facility after a discussion with Dr Phil McGraw about a physical altercation with one of his daughters, the show said in a statement. Williams and his family discussed that incident during a taping of "Dr. Phil" scheduled for broadcast on Thursday, the show said, and family members revealed Williams has been drinking daily. "If Ted is ever going to get better, he's got to be honest with himself and admit he's addicted to drugs and alcohol," Dr. Phil McGraw, the show's host, said in the statement. "I've told him it's not going to be easy and it's going to take a lot of hard work. It might be a long journey for him, but this is a step in the right direction," McGraw said. Los Angeles police have said two people were taken to Hollywood station on Monday night following a disturbance at Williams' hotel, although they have declined to identify them. Local media and celebrity web sites reported Williams and his daughter were questioned after getting into a loud argument. Williams, a former radio announcer who became homeless after battling drugs and alcohol, attracted millions of YouTube hits after The Columbus Dispatch newspaper posted a video of him panhandling using radio emcee imitations. He has since appeared on morning news programs including "The Today Show" to talk about new voice-over job offers with the Cleveland Cavaliers basketball team and foodmaker Kraft and his stunning instant rise from begging on the streets. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Quote: The case can't be made that moderate drinking will make Bravus, or any specific individual, an alcoholic. However it is commonly known in the mental health field that alcoholics normally start out as moderate drinkers and there is no way to tell at the beginning who will develop the disease or at which point they pass from being a moderate drinker to being an alcoholic. I know who will develop the disease... it's those people who don't want to stop after 1-2 cans of beer, or 1-2 glasses of wine. Those people will most likely develop it. People who do stop, will not. There's no mystery to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I know who will develop the disease... it's those people who don't want to stop after 1-2 cans of beer, or 1-2 glasses of wine. Again, another big lack of understanding the disease. My friend that became an alcoholic drank moderately for over twenty years and rarely got drunk. Then she started drinking quite heavily having blackouts. She certainly doesn't represent the majority of alcoholics but cases like hers are not unheardof. "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Those that insist on moderately drinking are grabbing a tiger by the tail. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I don't know how many here are familiar with the disease concept of alcoholism or if I have already stated it. Sometimes I take it for granted that others I am communicating with have the same grasp on certain concepts as I do. Alcoholism is both a physical and mental illness. I have made many references in this thread to the mental part so anyone that has been reading should grasp that. The mental part of the illness is referred to the "obsession". The mental obsession prevents a red flag from coming up when the alcoholic is faced with the first drink. It is not always consistent. An alcoholic may go a week, month a year or longer without drinking on his own. When faced with the temptation, his mind raises a red flag which reminds him or her of the pain and/or humiliation previously suffered due to drinking and that "red flag" allows the alcoholic to a make a rational decision not to drink. However, there comes a day when faced with temptation that no red flag is raised, the alcoholic takes the first drink and before he or she knows what happened, they are drunk - sometimes for days. As the disease progresses, these moments of insanity become closer and closer so that the ability to stay sober for even short periods of time is nearly gone completely. The physical part of the disease is referred to as the "craving". The craving for alcohol does not start until the alcohol is put into the body. The body fails to identify alcohol as a poison and once the first drink is taken craves more and more. Many alcoholics will say one is too many and one thousand is not enough. Once the body becomes physically addicted due to heavy and frequent drinking, this craving never goes away. The alcoholic will drink until they pass out at night and drink in the morning. The choice to drink has been removed and the alcoholic is a slave to alcohol. Only God can save him or her from this hopeless state. The relevance in this thread is that few drinkers have the "craving" response when they first start drinking. They are able to control their drinking for some time. It is different with each individual. However, in the alcoholic, at some point they cross a line when their body actually starts to crave alcohol once they take the first drink. Then the mental obsession starts driving them back to continue taking that first drink. The disease takes control of their lives and they live for alcohol much like a Christian lives for Christ. So in my friend case that was a moderate drinker for over 20 years, she didn't have the craving for 20 years but at some point, she developed the craving and the obsession quickly followed. She was a public figure in the community and highly respected. Within a few years she had lost all of that. Coming out of treatment she was trying to hang on to her marriage. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 While in the army in Germany, I smoked both marijuana and hashish but never got high on either one, although everyone else was getting high on them, even a few junior officers. But I got high and drunk fairly easily on alcohol many times. People that start drinking often do terrible things while they are out of control. People who are avowed teetotalers never do anything terrible as a result of drinking. "Anyone who loves another brother or sister is living in the light and does not cause others to stumble."1 John 2:10 NLT Conversely someone seems to be indicated here as not walking in the light. Can one walk in darkness and follow the Light at the same time? "Jesus replied, “My light will shine for you just a little longer. Walk in the light while you can, so the darkness will not overtake you. Those who walk in the darkness cannot see where they are going."John 12:35 NLT God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 None. Edit: Polygamy is actually the perfect parallel. It's not a great idea. It's arguably not God's ideal. It's prohibited for particular classes of people (deacons). And yet nowhere is it directly prohibited for everyone, and in some places the Bible actually requires it. Marrying in moderation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 effectnoun a change that is a result or consequence of an action or other cause Yep. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Bravus None. Edit: Polygamy is actually the perfect parallel. It's not a great idea. It's arguably not God's ideal. It's prohibited for particular classes of people (deacons). And yet nowhere is it directly prohibited for everyone, and in some places the Bible actually requires it. Marrying in moderation? Hehe, King Solomon failed at that... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuff sed Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Now that you brought up Polygamy....I read somewhere "If you can't be true to one or two you're much better off with three!" Nuff sed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 My priority is what the Bible says. How does God's Word really treat the subject of drinking alcohol? Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Now that you brought up Polygamy....I read somewhere "If you can't be true to one or two you're much better off with three!"Nuff sed I'm not touching that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Quote: Alcoholic beverages are obviously dangerous in terms of carousing, drunkenness, and also in terms of being unprepared for the Second Coming of Christ. Interesting that a non-adventist Christian forum should speak so well on a subject that some on this forum find to be just another lifestyle accepted by God. God blesses! I couldn't agree more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 My suggestion for non-Adventists that drink is to never get drunk - that includes tipsy. That means no more than one drink per hour. If they can't limit themselves to that, they need not to drink at all. For Adventists, well... we are living in the anti-typical Day of Atonement and shouldn't be drinking at all. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 16, 2011 Moderators Share Posted January 16, 2011 People that start drinking often do terrible things while they are out of control. People who are avowed teetotalers never do anything terrible as a result of drinking. They have to find whole other motivations and excuses to do terrible things. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Polygamy is actually the perfect parallel. Marrying in moderation? Hehe, King Solomon failed at that... Yet if Solomon would have not married wife #2 he would have avoided the ensuing consequences.Polygamy is the perfect parallel. God warns against it and man does it anyway. God sets restrictions on it and man sees those restrictions as the standard. God does not explicitly condemn it and man views this as His permission to indulge.God uses men who have violated His perfect will to accomplish great things for Him and men think that they also are the exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 The perfect food for humans is raw vegetables, fruits and nuts. It's obviously better to drink freshly squeezed orange juice than to gulp down a can of beer. It's better for your health, it's better for your mind, and it certainly tastes better IMO. BUT, it DOES NOT mean that giving yourself freedom to drink those things once in a while will lead one to the life warned about in this forum. IMO the point to this discussion is not about "moderate drinking". It's whether ANY consumption of alcohol is a sin that God prohibits. I don't believe we can honestly say yes. We may question how much is too much. I think you can answer it for yourself. For you too much may be a drop. For other person too much may be anything more than a glass of whine or a can of beer. Yet, I certainly think it should never be a "test of Godliness", which is what it boils down to. I.E. people who choose to abstain from alcohol and only eat vegetables are somehow more godly than those who don't. That's the argument that's being peddled around here. I don't find it reflecting the larger picture of what being "upright" really means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 16, 2011 Moderators Share Posted January 16, 2011 Yet, I certainly think it should never be a "test of Godliness", which is what it boils down to. I.E. people who choose to abstain from alcohol and only eat vegetables are somehow more godly than those who don't. That's the argument that's being peddled around here. I don't find it reflecting the larger picture of what being "upright" really means. Indeed. Romans 14: 1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 As the originator of this thread, I must say that it is not ok to drink alcohol. It destroys marriages, lives and families. Why play with it any longer? Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted January 17, 2011 Good to see you back. :D Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Thank you, Sir. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Just a question not related to any one post. Why is it that the drinking of alcohol equals alcoholism and drunkedness in this thread? Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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