Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[Bravus]

Oh, I absolutely agree. But I also know that heaven is not cut to our prejudices. If not beer, there'll be *something* that will shock or surprise us (beyond the fact that we're there and who else is). Limiting heaven to what we're capable of imagining seems to me like a dangerous game.

[doug yowell]

I believe the things we'll enjoy in heaven and on the new earth and on the planets we'll visit will make us forget all about beer and will be far far better than anything we've ever eaten or drunk here.

Far better than beer?? It's a generally accepted fact that the enjoyment of all alcoholic drinks (especially beer!!)is an acquired taste. Like tobacco,weed,and peace, ya gotta give it a chance. And given the physical, mental, and spiritual effects on the human race, I don't think it a good starting point to contemplate comparisons with the perfect world to come.

[John317]

It's true people usually have to acquire the taste for beer, and once they acquire it, they enjoy it. But really most people don't drink beer because of the taste but because of the affect. They wouldn't drink it if it wasn't for the alcohol. The reason I mentioned the beer is that others suggested they wouldn't mind having one with God in heaven.

[doug yowell]

It's true people usually have to acquire the taste for beer, and once they acquire it, they enjoy it. But really most people don't drink beer because of the taste but because of the affect. They wouldn't drink it if it wasn't for the alcohol. The reason I mentioned the beer is that others suggested they wouldn't mind having one with God in heaven.

A hard working,dope smoking, beer drinking, coworker of mine once quipped to everyone in the lunch room,"Everyone knows you only drink to get a buzz." A former CHP officer told all his traffic school "students" (I was one of them) that even 1 beer could register physically when tested. And he drank!! So you've got 2 independent witnesses to verify your conclusions.

[John317]

I agree that even one beer will change how we react. That's why I don't think it's good to drink even one. Even a little alcohol alters the thinking and kills brain cells.

[Bravus]

I enjoy one or two beers in an evening - which has no discernable intoxicating effect. I drink it for the taste.

Let's at the very least not talk nonsense.

[John317]

Yes, let's not.

[Lauralea]

Alcohol causes 38% of all the traffic fatalities in California. It is also a leading cause of divorce, murder, suicide, and industrial accidents, and associated with an increased risk of being a homicide victim. Check out Pubmed for more information on alcohol and health. For some reason the server is down right now, but the URL is www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

It is difficult from a purely logical perspective to conclude that using a drug many people become addicted to over time, even if you currently use it in in small quantities, is harmless.

[Dr. Shane]

When I was in high school I got involved with SADD and they told us of a study where a group of students were given one drink and then had to take a test the following morning. These same group of students had already taken a similar test. What they discovered was that just the one drink impacted their test scores the following morning. The reason is that alcohol robs oxygen from the brain and it takes the brain time to recover.

I too enjoy the taste of beer. So does my wife. We both drink non-alcoholic beer on occasion. When we do we normally split one between us. When we buy a six pack, it will normally last us about a month.

[doug yowell]

I enjoy one or two beers in an evening - which has no discernable intoxicating effect. I drink it for the taste.

Let's at the very least not talk nonsense.

Who's doing the discerning? Two beers in less than 2 hrs. can get you a DUI in California. 1 beer if you're not a big drinker.So if it's possible to go DUI in as little as 1 beer an hour (for some)it's a little premature to assume that any amount of beer in a few hours has no effect whatsoever.

[fccool]

Quote:

Huh??? I never heard of a girl who got pregnant because she used too much Suave Pomegranate Kiwi Shampoo,or a guy who got in a lot of fights because he ate too many Cheetos.I think I'd go with the double standard on this one.

Wow, you've seem people do it after drinking 1-2% alcoholic drinks. I think that's the point I'm making, and you are taking it to extreme just showing that my point about exaggerating extreme stands.

I.E. don't kiss a guy... you'll get pregnant type of exaggeration here. And unfortunately, that type of mindset prevails.

I'm all for alcohol warning, but at the same time I thing we should be honest and reasonable here.

[Bravus]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

I enjoy one or two beers in an evening - which has no discernable intoxicating effect. I drink it for the taste.

Let's at the very least not talk nonsense.

Who's doing the discerning? Two beers in less than 2 hrs. can get you a DUI in California. 1 beer if you're not a big drinker.So if it's possible to go DUI in as little as 1 beer an hour (for some)it's a little premature to assume that any amount of beer in a few hours has no effect whatsoever.

That's not the point I was making. Someone said people drink only for the effect, not the taste, and that is nonsense.

The ability to focus on one issue at a time - the one actually being discussed - would enhance the clarity of this discussion considerably.

[John317]

Someone said people drink only for the effect, not the taste, and that is nonsense.

I enjoyed drinking beer with a steak or pizza or on hot summer days. You may drink just for the taste but I don't think most people generally drink beer primarily for the way its tastes. I know I wouldn't have drunk it if it hadn't been for the alcohol, and same with the vodka, although the taste got better and better after I'd had one or two. I drank all through the army, and my experience then and afterwards was that people generally drank to get high or feel a "buzz". That doesn't mean every single person does, of course. But when we went over to the EM clubs to drink, I don't know of anyone who was going over there because they loved the taste of the beer or even of the drinks. Did we like the taste? Sure, but the taste wasn't the reason we were drinking it.

[fccool]

It is difficult from a purely logical perspective to conclude that using a drug many people become addicted to over time, even if you currently use it in in small quantities, is harmless.

I think that "harmless" is a relative term in the world where you can die by chocking on a pretzel .

I just came back from a funeral today of a dear friend of ours. She died due to brain cancer. She was practicing all of the Health Message... to extreme... being vegan, exercising, positive attitude, no alcohol or harmful substances. The end result is the same if she indeed drank moderately, ate meat or used unhealthy hygienic products... and did not exercise.

As I've looked at her, I thought to myself that it's truly sad how fragile our lives are... and there's nothing we really can do in situations like hers. No matter how healthy you live... there are so many harmful factors in our lives, that it's hard to keep up.

You may choose to live life of abstinence, and that's great... but I would not begin to set limits where God does not set them purely on your understanding of "harm done"

[LifeHiscost]

It is difficult from a purely logical perspective to conclude that using a drug many people become addicted to over time, even if you currently use it in in small quantities, is harmless.

[fccool]

Deuteronomy 14:26

[John317]

On Deut. 14: 26, See Wine In the Bible, A Biblical Study On the Use of Alcoholic Beverages, Samuel Bacchiocchi, pages 225-234.

[Bravus]

It is indeed very interesting to see which 'side' in this discussion is bringing mainly Scripture and discussing what is Scriptural, and which is bringing everything but...

[LifeHiscost]

Deuteronomy 14:26

That's good if one follows all the other injunctions found in that chapter. And I do wonder if the strong drink referred to in those days was the same thing as the industrial grade put out today?

I can remember traveling south on 101 some years ago during the hot summer, stopping to purchase from a roadside stand some apple juice that had obviously sat in the hot weather for some time before we stopped.

After resting a little while and noticing that the drink had a little bite to it but getting in and driving away anyway, it wasn't long before I recognized that if a CHP officer were to pull me over and give me a breathalyzer test, I would have failed.

I'm of the opinion that is probably what was considered to be strong drink in those days, you know, the "days of yor"?

God's blessings!

[John317]

The Bible clearly condemns the use of alcohol. God doesn't contradict Himself. He condemns in the following verses precisely what some understand God accepts in Deut. 14: 26. But the fact is that the words translated "strong drink" may be translated as either unfermented grape juice or fermented wine. In most places where it is used in the Old Testament, it refers to fermented wine the use of which God condemns in those verses where it occurs. The word "strong" is added by the translator.

Proverbs 20:1

Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler,

and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

Proverbs 23:20, 21

Be not among drunkards

or among gluttonous eaters of meat,

for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty,

and slumber will clothe them with rags.

Proverbs 23:33

Your eyes will see strange things,

and your heart utter perverse things.

Hosea 7:5

On the day of our king, the princes

became sick with the heat of wine;

he stretched out his hand with mockers.

Genesis 9:21

He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent.

Genesis 19:32

Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father."

Habakkuk 2:15

"Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink—

you pour out your wrath and make them drunk,

in order to gaze at their nakedness!

Isaiah 19:14

The Lord has mingled within her a spirit of confusion,

and they will make Egypt stagger in all its deeds,

as a drunken man staggers in his vomit.

Psalm 60:3

You have made your people see hard things;

you have given us wine to drink that made us stagger.

Proverbs 31:4-5

It is not for kings, O Lemuel,

it is not for kings to drink wine,

or for rulers to take strong drink,

[5] lest they drink and forget what has been decreed

and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.

1 Tim. 3:2-3

Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3] not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

Isaiah 5:11

Woe to those who rise early in the morning,

that they may run after strong drink,

who tarry late into the evening

as wine inflames them!

Isaiah 28:7

These also reel with wine

and stagger with strong drink;

the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink,

they are swallowed by wine,

they stagger with strong drink,

they reel in vision,

they stumble in giving judgment.

Leviticus 10:9-11

"Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations. [10] You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean, [11] and you are to teach the people of Israel all the statutes that the Lord has spoken to them by Moses."

Numbers 6:2-4

"Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord, [3] he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried. [4] All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins.

Judges 13:3-5

And the angel of the Lord appeared to the woman and said to her, "Behold, you are barren and have not borne children, but you shall conceive and bear a son. [4] Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, [5] for behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. No razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb, and he shall begin to save Israel from the hand of the Philistines."

The messenger of the Lord speaks clearly in regard to drinking alcoholic beverages:

"Moderate drinking is the school in which men are receiving an education for the drunkard's career."--Review and Herald, March 25, 1884.

Indulgence in intoxicating liquor places a man wholly under the control of the demon who devised this stimulant in order to deface and destroy the moral image of God.--Manuscript 1, 1899. {Te 32.2}

Is there honestly any doubt about it?

During the years I was drinking, I knew from reading material like that given above that drinking alcohol was wrong from the persepctive of the Bible and Ellen White's writings.

[John317]

It is indeed very interesting to see which 'side' in this discussion is bringing mainly Scripture and discussing what is Scriptural, and which is bringing everything but...

Indeed it was. But that is now changed.

Let's study the topic thoroughly, looking at everything the Bible says about it as well as what God revealed to us through the writings of Ellen G. White. The previous post is only a small portion of what we will examine on Sabbath. Got your Bible's?

But before we do, I must be

[Bravus]

The Bible only, for me. If it can't be established from the Bible it's not doctrine - it's opinion at best.

As for the Bible texts quoted above, let me repeat what I said (quick check) 10 pages ago: It's very easy to establish a Biblical case against drunkenness, and very hard to establish a Biblical case for complete abstinence.

I'd be interested in which of those texts you think do the latter rather than the former.

[Bravus]

Before I, too, I feel like I need to clarify something one more time.

Throughout this thread, my argument has never been pro-alcohol. I have said early and often that total abstinence is a healthy and admirable lifestyle choice that people should feel free to adopt and also to promote as loudly and as long as they can.

My point has been one thing and one thing only:

Telling the truth about what the Bible actually says

Anyone ought to be able to read the Bible and find our doctrines. If they can't, then we should be willing to acknowledge that what we have are opinions or recommendations, not doctrines.

Sola Scriptura is the standard.

[fccool]

Quote:

The Bible clearly condemns the use of alcohol. God doesn't contradict Himself. He condemns in the following verses precisely what some understand God accepts in Deut. 14: 26. But the fact is that the words translated "strong drink" may be translated as either unfermented grape juice or fermented wine. In most places where it is used in the Old Testament, it refers to fermented wine the use of which God condemns in those verses where it occurs. The word "strong" is added by the translator.

John, basically what you saying is that any instance of that combination that does not have support for what you saying can be interpreted as "unfermented". It's a convenient argument IMO... yet I don't find it logical.

For example you may say that God does not intend people to eat meat and drink milk... yet ... in the Bible he permits and in some case encourages both uses.

The argument techniques that are used against consuming alcohol really rely on pandering to large generalized statistic, rather than any reasonable argument and end up blaming alcohol itself... as though alcohol is somehow "evil". It's an argument that detaches alcohol from human responsibility and turns it into a "drug".

Question for you is not whether alcohol is dangerous. The question is whether God allowed people to drink lightly fermented drinks (5-6% alcohol most likely) in context of celebratory social gathering.

For myself ... the answer it "yes" not because I like to drink wine. In fact, I prefer juices... because I don't like the bitter taste and the aftertaste. The answer is yes because I don't think God is immature, and he prioritizes important issues in lives of people.

Yes, I believe it's a lack of maturity to think that a can of beer in hands of responsible people will lead to drunkenness. Hence God allowed it in certain occasions while warning of consequences of abuse.

It's not uncommon for religious leaders to lack maturity. During the days of Jesus they were not mature enough to think that it's permissible to collect wheat on Sabbath because it would lead to "greater sin" . So, there's a wall built around the law using the bricks of religious dogma with the noble purpose of protecting the law... yet it becomes a religion by rule of layers of dogma, rather than simple common sense.

Common sense is that one can of beer will do very little to your ability to think clearly. Yet, there have to be rationalizations as to why it is not so and how it can potentially kill you... the reason is because of immature mindset that does not understand human responsible behavior.

A lot of churches that I've been to treat adults as children, because many adults lack maturity... both mental and spiritual.

The issue is really the responsibility and maturity. Drunkenness = immaturity. I would understand if people don't drink for health reasons. It's commendable. But many arguments that I hear here is fear-based, which is backed by a statistics that designed the negative outcome. People who drink responsibly without getting drunk are not in such picture, because it's detrimental to the argument.

It's really the same mindset that would not allow young people of the opposite gender in the same room without an adult present in Bob Jones... or would not allow building a swimming pool in university I attended because of fear that young people would lust after each other.

It's immature.

[doug yowell]

It is indeed very interesting to see which 'side' in this discussion is bringing mainly Scripture and discussing what is Scriptural, and which is bringing everything but...

Which side has brought mainly Scriptures to the table? The thread is titled "Is it ok to drink alcohol?" Not "Does the Bible Condemn the Use of Alcohol?" I'm guessing that most of us agree on what exactly the Bible says. I'm guessing that most of us agree on what God's perfect will for us is on this question. I'm guessing that some of us disagree on whether or not creating a little wiggle room is spiritually detrimental.If the focus on the physical effects of alcohol seems nebulus it is just that we as Adventists have always taught that the person is a a whole unit;physical,mental, spiritual.Thus what affects the one effects the whole. If non-biblical sources can verify the physical effects of alcohol does it not then continue to the mental as well as the spiritual? Are we out of line to argue from the lesser to the greater?So,OK, here's a word of caution from the Scriptures:"Wine is a mocker,Strong drink is a brawler,And whoever is led astray by it is not wise." "...It is not for kings to drink wine.Nor for princes intoxicating drink;lest they drink and forget the law..."