Is it ok to drink alcohol...?

[Bravus]

You guys are all focusing on the 'medication' benefits of alcohol - which might be unsurprising since most of you have testified that you've used it to self-medicate in the past. But projecting your own experience on to others is unhelpful.

That's not what I had in mind at all: I was talking about the aesthetic benefits, the sheer enjoyment. (There's a whole other rant for another day about the 'medicalisation' of food and drink and its reduction to a set of nutrients rather than a blessing to be enjoyed.)

There are massive differences in taste between a glass of wine and a glass of grape juice. The fermentation and cellaring processes lead to a very rich, complex flavour in wine that is really not available in anything else. Same for beer - there is an immense range of different kinds of beers, with an amazing range of flavours, and nothing else tastes like it.

By all means feel free to say 'it's not to my taste, I don't like it'. There are lots of things I don't like the taste of. But I happen to enjoy the taste of wine and beer. I'm not drinking it to medicate any condition or balm my soul, I'm drinking it because it tastes good and because I don't believe that doing so is against God's will.

[fccool]

This appears to be instructing someone to use alcohol as an anti-depressant. Doesn't it? Yet, alcohol is a depressant not an anti-depressant. So this verse cannot be an instruction to use it as an anti-depressant unless the author was clueless about what he was writing. The only understanding of this verse to me is that it is an instruction to give alcohol to someone who is dying.

It certainly could be the case, since they did not have anesthetics back then. In the context, it talks more about responsibility of people to take care of each rather than allowing or prohibiting alcohol consumption.

I'm certainly aware of dangers of alcohol, but I think it's something that should be left to person to understand personal limits. I think it's very bad practice to knock on Christians who decide that they have freedom to "taste"... just like those who decide it's ok to have a slice of that over-saturated cake during the potluck (or at home). Both are not exactly the healthiest practices, yet there are worse things to worry about IMO.

[Dr. Shane]

You guys are all focusing on the 'medication' benefits of alcohol - which might be unsurprising since most of you have testified that you've used it to self-medicate in the past. But projecting your own experience on to others is unhelpful.

Because I know you, I am sure it wasn't your intention, but the above comment comes across as a cheap shot. I openly admit to being an alcoholic and others on this board have confessed the same. I do not believe the Bible forbids drinking alcohol but do believe Proverbs 31:6 is addressing giving alcohol to a dying man. There are several other verses one can use to justify the moderate use of alcohol.

That said, I do not believe that those of us living in the final days should indulge in alcohol even if we do have the luxury of being able to use it in moderate use. I am a vegetarian (more specifically a pescatarian). Meat has a distinct taste to it that one cannot get from vege products. I like the taste of meat. However I refrain from it in part of health reasons but also for spiritual reasons. Being a vegetarian is a way for me to afflict my soul during this time of the investigative judgment. Each time I look at a menu and make vegetarian choices, I am reminded that I am living in the final days of Earth's history and Jesus will soon return. This spiritual practice is similar to Catholic believer practicing Lent. It serves to bring my thinking more in line with what God's will is for me. As Adventists, we do not drink alcohol or use tobacco products (and many don't eat meat) because we are living in the last days.

[Bravus]

Apologies, Shane: I did try to figure out how to phrase that better, and it definitely was not meant to be a cheap shot. We all have our limitations in terms of experience, knowledge and understanding. I'm trying to be up front about my own, and I hope others can do the same. I *know and understand* that for alcoholics one drink is too many. But the old 'extreme cases make bad law' argument comes up: the testimonies of those of you who have abused alcohol in the past are very important, but they're not the whole story.

Once again, I'm not *advocating* alcohol use for other people. I am trying to balance up the picture.

IMO asceticism ('afflicting our soul') is an invention of the Roman church that is also not Biblical, but that could be a whole new thread. In brief, the Hebrew vision of the human being is holistic: it is Greek thinking to punish the body to purify the soul.

[Overaged]

This is a poem that I wrote. Whenever the subject of to drink, or not to drink comes up, I share the following story in poem form. It is a very true story, from my life; and I have changed the name, and one or two other, minor details for privacy’s sake.

One thing I will say is that people who say "I Can Handle It," are deluded.

My First Girlfriend “Mary”

A true story by "Overaged"

Be sober when you have the steering wheel in your hand

You’ll be sure to save life across the land

You’ll do no good if you drive and drink..

You can’t be fast enough, you cannot think

Oh yes, you’re happy. You’re at the party

Time to go home, you feel so hearty

Who do you love when you drive and drink?

When you drink and drive – what do you think?

It could be over in a hard, fast minute!

Then, tomorrow, without you in it!

Be sober when you have the steering wheel in your hand

You’ll be sure to save life across the land.

Now one man said: “I’m quite sober enough!”

Why, I can drive, and drink this stuff!”

Who does he love when he drives with a drink?

When he drinks and drives; what does he think?

As he risks a life that’s not his to take:

He drinks and can’t stop the mistake!

Now the party is over; he’s on his way

Barreling down the town’s highway

Where a 12 year old girl walked with a happy sway

On her way to buy a present for Daddy’s birthday

O, the little girl near danced – so happy did she feel

When along came a car, with a drunk behind the wheel!

Well, the drunk man saw her pretty soon

He let out a drunkard sound

He yelled: “Get out of my way you little goon!”

And he hit her with a pound…

The bumper struck the little girl…taking her breath away

Her broken body, in a pool of blood, by the ditch lay.

The drunk tore out of his car to see the damage and slaughter

And let out a wail as he recognized his own, dying daughter!

And the little girl whispered: “Daddy…w…w…why???”

Daddy yelled: “O Mary…don’t die!”

But, her eyes were fixed with fright;

as she clutched her little parcel tight;

and she breathed no more.

The tears continue to pour.

Be sober when you have the steering wheel in your hand

You’ll be sure to save life across the land

The tears are still pouring

The parties still roaring.

It was so hard for me to forgive God for this.

I really loved that girl, even though I was only 12.

Little Mary is one of a very long, and fast growing list;

Now, what if your life had such a twist?

It could be over in a hard, fast minute,

Then tomorrow, without you in it!

(Grape Juice Only – Isa.65:8-9, Prov.20:1, 23:29-35, Eph.5:18, Rev.21:7).

By "Overaged" (permission given to copy and use freely for non-profit only).

4T.030.003

“Beverage-loving, liquor-drinking men may be seen everywhere. Their intellect is enfeebled, their moral powers are weakened, their sensibilities are benumbed, and the claims of God and heaven are not realized, eternal things are not appreciated. The Bible declares that no drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

1 Cor. 6:9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink to him who is perishing, And wine to him whose life is bitter. Let him drink and forget his poverty and remember his trouble no more.

This appears to be instructing someone to use alcohol as an anti-depressant. Doesn't it? Yet, alcohol is a depressant not an anti-depressant. So this verse cannot be an instruction to use it as an anti-depressant unless the author was clueless about what he was writing. The only understanding of this verse to me is that it is an instruction to give alcohol to someone who is dying.

Nothing to say here that the "drink" being talked about is alcoholic in nature. And people who are dying would in many cases not even be able to swallow it. You need to go back to the drawing board.

[John317]

People should eat in order to be healthy, and for many-- such as myself, since I have diabetes-- it may mean not eating anything with sugar or even much starch, etc.

Surgar is definitely not a good thing to eat much of, and most people do each too much of it.

But if people's bodies are in good health, they can eat some deserts that contain sugar without any bad affects. I can't do it because my body doesn't use sugar properly like healthy people's bodies do. But of course even if people's bodies do use sugar in the right way, they should eat it only in moderation. It is true that sugar tends to make people unable to think as clearly as they can without it. That's why it's best not to eat a lot desserts with sugar in them before you take examinations at school. But it doesn't have the same dramatic influence on people that alcohol does. For instance, people's reactions at the wheel are not known to change as a result of sugar, but it is well known that it changes quickly after drinking even small amounts of alcohol.

It would be better for people to eat meat than to eat a lot of sweets or junk food, that's for sure.

This is not the same with alcohol because the Bible contains no warning against the eating of sugar, but it definitely does contain many warnings about drinking alcohol, and for good reason.

Ellen White often did not eat the desserts but she did sometimmes make them available to her guests if they wanted to eat them. But she NEVER had fermented wine or other kinds of alcohol on her table.

The problem with alcohol is that it ofen causes people to let down their guard against drinking too much once they get started. Alcohol dramatically changes the ability to make decisions. That is one reason men in particular have been known to give it to people they want to have sexual relations with. Notice they don't try to change their inhibitions by giving them sugar.

[Gordon1]

-- it may mean not eating anything with sugar or even much starch, etc.

Hi John,

Have you researched the cause of Type 2 Diabetes? (Adult onset). The real culprit is dietary fat, which inhibits insulin transport of glucose into the body's 50 trillion cells.

Though the entire Western health system is hinged on sugar/carbs as the criminal element, such is not the case. Sugar intake compounds the problem, but does not cause it. Removing animal fat and all free fats, oils and grease - margarines, olive & canola oils included, will reset the cell receptivity.

This process can happen in several weeks with compliant patients, many of whom are able to leave off their insulin and oral meds. The dietary change (low fat, plant-based eating) can lower blood sugars quickly and so should be followed carefully by a physician to avoid possibility of insulin shock, a potentially life-threatening condition.

The medical research on this goes back 90 years. But if we simply followed the counsel of Ellen White to dispense with animal foods and avoid all forms of grease and oil, Type 2 Diabetes among Seventh day Adventists would be rare.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

-- it may mean not eating anything with sugar or even much starch, etc.

Hi John,

Have you researched the cause of Type 2 Diabetes? (Adult onset). The real culprit is dietary fat, which inhibits insulin transport of glucose into the body's 50 trillion cells.

Though the entire Western health system is hinged on sugar/carbs as the criminal element, such is not the case. Sugar intake compounds the problem, but does not cause it.....

Yes, you are right. But there are also people like myself who have it because of inheritance. My doctors told me that diet didn't bring on my Type 2 Diabetes but that I would have eventually gotten it in any case because it's in my genetic makeup. My grandfather died with it-- medical personel gave him an overdose of insulin in 1952-- and my mother and all of her 7 siblings had it, as well as relatives on my dad's side. Diet and good health practices will delay it and control it, but diet isn't always the ultimate cause of it. But what you say about the benefit of eliminating "fat," etc., from our diet, is definitely true.

[Gordon1]

That's quite a lineage John. Ouch.

Sorry to hear about all that suffering.

[John317]

Fortunately I was healthy and athletic until just a few years ago, so I have mostly had a pain-free life. My mother only found out about her diabetes when she was in her 80s, and until then she was in great health. My mom's brother has it but he is in his 90s and doing well.

[Guest]

1Co 3:16,17 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

I believe alcohol defiles the temple. I know it does when I drink it. Bravus if your conscience doesn't convict you when you drink alcohol, then by all means drink on. Better for you to gamble with eternity at stake than me.

[Bravus]

"A text without context is a pretext"

[Guest]

Whatever you say. Like I said, drink on. But you can read the whole chapter and it doesn't change the meaning of what is stated there. You can call it out of context, or anything else you want to come up with. But it still means exactly what it says.

[Bravus]

The context is sexual morality, not food and drink.

[John317]

God is not going to tell people everything they should do or not do. He gives us principles and then leaves it up to us to use our reasoning as to whether we will do what He has told us. That is the same with the Sabbath in the NT. If people are looking for a "You shall keep the seventh-day Sabbath under the New Covenant," they won't find one. And if they are looking for a statement in the Bible that says, "No one should ever drink any alcohol," you won't ever find that, either, because that is not God's way. But there is plenty of evidence of what God's will is for us with respect to alcohol and the Sabbath, etc., if people are willing to study and accept it.

The reason God raised up Ellen White as His last-day prophet was in order to give us the truth in a way that would leave us without an excuse not to follow God's word. The only way that anyone can deny it is to reject what she wrote, because her words about it leave no doubt. Yet God won't box people in so that they have no way of doing what they choose to do if they don't want to follow His counsel. He leaves us free to choose whether or not to believe and obey.

[Bravus]

Slippery, slippery slope to say "Don't look at what the Bible actually says, interpret it in terms of underlying principles". Plenty of scope for rationalisations and idiosyncratic doctrines in that approach.

[John317]

Yes, we definitely should study the Bible to see what it actually teaches. We should also study the Spirit of prophecy. So let's study them both on this thread. There really hasn't been much study of the Bible so far in this discussion.

[John317]

If people want to drink alcohol more than they want to understand God's instruction for the purpose of following it, then they will find reasons to keep drinking. The same principle applies as regards the Sabbath, sexual immorality, or various teachings that are contrary to the Bible. We have to decide if God's word is our standard or whether the standard is our feelings & our reasoning.

[John317]

..."Don't look at what the Bible actually says, interpret it in terms of underlying principles".

I think we should do both-- study the Bible closely to see what it actually says, and apply the principles we derive from such close study.

[Bravus]

Close, honest study of what the Bible actually says: real study in context, not proof-texting, and not 'study' that assumes what it sets out to prove, is all I've been asking for throughout the thread.

Have at it.

[LifeHiscost]

"A text without context is a pretext"

That's another one of those maxims of man that makes it easier to deny another person's capacity to find Truth where he finds it, as opposed to allowing our reasoning find the freedom to use feeling for the basis of our actions, ie: "It must be love because it feels so good." That's one of those realities that enables the female of the species put so much trust in the male gender when the male gender so regularly exploits them for an uncommitted moment of pleasure.

"But the word of the LORD was to them, “ Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little,” That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught."

Isaiah 28:13 NKJV

And why would God wish us to fall backward and be broken and snared? Could it be that would reveal our innermost heart instead of permitting our outward deportment give a lie?

"...I have rejected him. The Lord doesn’t see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”1 Samuel 16:7 NLT"

God blesses!

[Dr. Shane]

If a person can drink alcohol without getting drunk, my hat is off to them. I don't think that is God's plan for His remnant people but I don't think it is a sin either. It makes totally no sense to me. It is like just smelling a chocolate bar but not tasting it. If I can't have my cake and eat it too - I don't want the cake!

[Guest]

Close, honest study of what the Bible actually says: real study in context, not proof-texting, and not 'study' that assumes what it sets out to prove, is all I've been asking for throughout the thread.

Ok, then give a Bible text that says it's ok to put alcohol in your body. Otherwise all you're doing is arguing your opinion against texts of scripture. You say you're asking for real Bible study in context, but I have yet to see you produce one text to make me believe that it's ok to drink alcohol.

Not only that, but when you say it must come from the Bible only, and nothing from EGW, you are making her God given testimony of none effect. I believe you know what she had to say about alcohol consumption. That means that either you don't believe she was a prophet of God, or you don't care what God's prophet had to say.

Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper. 2Chron 20:20

[Overaged]

Notice how all the beer drinkers will get so defensive and accuse those with the opposite opinion of not conducting "close honest examination of scriptures." Speaking of "honesty" where does the Bible tell us it is "OK" to put this kind of swill into our bodies? I can just see it if Jesus were to come right now; and one of the Imbibers looking up to him with a raised glass of whiskey: "Hey Jesus. Want a shot?"