Elimination of "evil" and "suffering" the ultimate goal?

[cardw]

You are saying who is not wise, but who IS wise?

If you aren't wise then I shouldn't listen to what you are saying.

And telling me to listen to God because I don't agree with you implies that you are claiming to have God's wisdom.

So should I listen to you or not?

[Overaged]

You are saying who is not wise, but who IS wise?

If you aren't wise then I shouldn't listen to what you are saying.

And telling me to listen to God because I don't agree with you implies that you are claiming to have God's wisdom.

So should I listen to you or not?

Everytime I look at some of your posts, kind Sir; you show evidence of "improvement." But I won't say what I think you are improving in, just yet.

[Sonny]

I'm saying that you need to listen to the Spirit. If what I say agrees with the Bible then you can listen to me....But I suggest the Bible.

[cardw]

So do you know if what you say agrees with the Bible?

The questions that I have been asking a along is if YOU know or not.

You keep saying IF as if you don't know either way.

And if you don't know then you have no right to tell me what to believe.

[Sonny]

I see you just like to argue. Okay. Here's some advice: If you think there's another way to eternal life other than Christ there isn't. He's the ticket. Your choice - death or life?

[cardw]

I see that you have no ability to actually answer any questions. Instead you move the topic to my so called desire to argue. This topic is not about salvation, which I haven't been talking about anyway.

Christianity does not eliminate suffering. In many cases it increases it.

And so far you haven't really presented any case at all. You simply keep announcing that Christ is the only way without any evidence for that claim period.

No evidence. No truth.

No results. No truth.

Avoiding tough questions. Deception.

[Woody]

Yes cardw Christianity does not eliminate suffering. In many cases it causes it to be greater. But then that is our calling. To suffer for Christ as He suffered for us.

[Overaged]

I see that you have no ability to actually answer any questions. Instead you move the topic to my so called desire to argue. This topic is not about salvation, which I haven't been talking about anyway.

Christianity does not eliminate suffering. In many cases it increases it.

And so far you haven't really presented any case at all. You simply keep announcing that Christ is the only way without any evidence for that claim period.

No evidence. No truth.

No results. No truth.

Avoiding tough questions. Deception.

I know you feel pretty good when you think that someone is "powerless" against your verbal onslaughts and manipulations. You present much "evidence," and very little truth. Only personal opinions which you have called truth. Rather than present truth and evidence; you prefer to twist people's words till no one even knows what's being said. it is really hard to actually follow your line of thought in this and other threads.

Woody said it well; this thread topic is a mute point because Christianity does not promise to eliminate evil & suffering, in this life. But it does share the truth that with God, there is always something better. Someday there will be an end to all suffering and evil. We share with Christ, "the fellowship of His suffering;" and just because YOU can't see how God will keep any one of His "precious promises," it does not mean that He can't or won't because Christians around the world have already experienced it.

The only real, tangible thing you have proved here is that YOU can't see it. (or won't)

[fccool]

I think there's a fundamental difference between belief and truth. You have pointed it out in the above, but religious people confuse the two very often.

Epistemologically we can't call something truth without some way of comparing the claim with objective reality. I.E. 2+2=4. We can objectively compare the claim with reality by simple finger manipulation. On the other hand, Christian claims don't fall into the realm of objective truth. You can't simply lay out objective "evidence" on the table and prove to people that claims laid out by Biblical writers are "true". If such were the case, not believing in Biblical claims would be as foolish as not believing that 2+2=4. I'd certainly would not have this conversation with you. The reason we having conversation is because such evidence does not exist.

That's why it really does bother me when the word "truth" is thrown around in a matter that it's done in the above post. Truth is objective reality that exists. You can't invoke lack of proving the opposite as "not presenting truth". It's dishonest. It's going to keep coming up as long as you keep doing it . It's dishonest for the reason of lack of integrity in the argument.

Suppose a plumber comes to your house and is asked to fix a faucet. He comes up after few minutes and says that there's a little glitch in the pipes and he fixed it. You open up the faucet and no water comes out. But the plumber demands the money and proof that he did not fix it. You say, well... I don't see any water coming out of the faucet. Yet the plumber gives you other reasons as to why you may not see the water coming out and insists that he did fix the faucet. I.E. Just because there is no water in the faucet, it does not mean that he did not fix it. He claims that something is wrong with you or your house that renders you unable to see the water.

Now, I know it sounds ridiculous, but it's very similar to the claims that you are making. There are objective ways of verifying things. These objective ways don't revolve around presenting evidence to disprove the disprovable. No one can disprove the existence of invisible magical unicorns that cause lightning in the sky when they ride underneath the storm clouds. Yet, the burden of proof does not lay with proving the opposite. It would be ridiculous.

Thus you can honestly call your belief to be faith. You can't honestly throw "truth" as a label for a belief that can't be either proven nor disproven.

[cardw]

Well Buddha stated that life is suffering. I don't know anyone who avoids suffering who lives on this planet.

If Christianity does not solve the problem of suffering, then of what use is it?

Does Christianity bring joy? That would reduce suffering.

Does Christianity heal our pain? That would reduce suffering.

Since Christianity is a call to suffering I guess joy and healing are out of the picture.

Continuing to suffer is not an ethic I want to promote.

I would far rather pursue happiness.

[cardw]

Overage,

I don't feel good or bad if someone can't answer my questions. It is simply a method for finding truth. If an idea can't withstand questioning then it is very likely that either the presenter of the idea isn't smart enough to defend it or the idea has no merit.

I try not to defend any ideas that don't withstand questioning. If something doesn't withstand questioning then either I replace it with something that does or I say I don't know.

I try not to over claim my position and if I do I quickly admit my error.

That is the easiest way to navigate toward what is true.

Generally my ego is what keeps me defending positions that make no sense. In that case I need to let go of being right. That's the power of humbleness. It keeps my ego from making a fool out of me.

It is actually quite simple to practice this form of rigorous honesty.

I don't have to twist people's words. I simply take them at face value and point out the weaknesses in that position. Weaknesses are situations where their idea doesn't work or they have contradicted themselves.

There are long lists of logical fallacies and it is quite easy to discover one or more of them in almost any position including my own.

That is why when I have come to understand the complexity of the world we live in that I honestly have to admit that I don't know and neither does anyone else as far as I can tell.

All we have left is an empirical results based pragmatism within the limitations of our ability to know.

So no evidence, no truth.

No results, no truth.

And even that truth is not universal.

[Woody]

Card ... you said something along the lines of :

If Christianity does not solve the problem of suffering, then of what use is it to you?

Does Christianity heal your pain? You think that would reduce suffering.

Since Christianity is a call to suffering you guess joy and healing are out of the picture.

Continuing to suffer is not an ethic you want to promote.

You would far rather pursue happiness.

Card ... The life of a Christian is all about suffering but it is also about learning to cope psychologically during that suffering. Your focus seems to be on making your life easy. If that is the case ... Christianity is not going to be your bag of tea.

[cardw]

On this planet it's impossible to make life easy. Being happy is not about easy. I have found that part of being happy is overcoming challenges. Easy is often part of the the root of unhappiness.

Scott Peck states the obvious when he says that life is difficult. The paradox is that once one accepts that life is difficult, life is less difficult.

Difficult doesn't have to be about happy or sad.

[Gail]

Richard, there is nothing wrong with asking questions. Some people spend their whole careers wondering about things.

But sometimes we just hit up against mysteries, and they are larger than we are.

It is then that we are humbled in the dust. And it is not necessarily a bad thing!

[cardw]

Gail,

I'm not expecting to have all the answers. I'm simply eliminating the ones that don't work.

That is why I am an agnostic.

I freely admit that most of it is too big to understand and I simply don't know.

To say that one knows by faith is not knowing in my experience. It's simply the use of language to substitute for real knowing.

It's too big of a leap to say because there are mysteries then it must be the god of the Bible. In my search there is a lot more evidence that it's not the god of the Bible. There are some rather good reasons and evidence that it's not.

I have to go with what I do know. To do anything else would be to lie to myself and to others.

[Gail]

True! Just keep having an honest heart and keep asking those questions! It is when we admit that there is much that is bigger than "us" that we become humble and teachable :)

[Gail]

Faith is a step into the unknown of sorts. It is believing in something you can't see, for sure. The Bible tells us exactly that. So in that aspect you are not that "off" from where we are.

[Overaged]

What you call "people can't answer," is not that at all. People don't want to argue about your opinions, and they choose not to answer.

The "easiest" way is rarely the way to truth.

Conversely, you present a litany of alleged "evidence" which contains no truth. Only personal opinions

Right is universal and so is wrong

[Ad hominem commentary and quotes removed.]

[Woody]

U R a Friend Overaged but I have to disagree with you here.

Card may present his opinions ... but that is exactly what you and I do also. Even references have to be interpreted by opinion. And that is what we do here ... voice our opinions.

[Sonny]

We will all suffer in the flesh, but if we remain with Christ by faith we are promised a new body, immortal & free of all sin. If you reject this you will certainly see the 2nd death, which is God abandonment.

[phkrause]

I believe Jesus himself said that those that follow him would not have it easy! I agree that no one will avoid suffering on this earth or world. Its the reward after this world plays out how awful sin is, where we will experience what God had in mind when he created man. Christianity per say doesn't do anything, Jesus does that, as we give him all our burdens. As Jesus said the rain falls on the good and the bad, the sun shines on all also. I wouldn't endorse suffering either, but it will be with us until the end. I agree I will also pursue happiness and each time I choose Jesus I am pursuing that. :)

[cardw]

Overaged,

Your whole set of comments don't deal with any actual thing that I have said on this topic.

Address my points and stop judging my motives and intents or whether or not I should know something or not.

It is my position, not my person, that you need to address.

How does Christianity eliminate evil and suffering?

I have basically stated that it offers nothing for this earth other than fear of punishment. Its reward is based on some future time.

The only fall back that I read is that one has to have faith. I have never found that faith in Jesus works. There has always been a more probable explanation. I think having faith in anything would probably work just as well. Or as Jesus says, simply have faith. That actually makes more sense.

[cardw]

Gail,

I believe in the idea of having trust or faith. The alternative of fear is doomed to failure. So, yes, I have faith that things will work out unless given evidence otherwise.

I simply alter my plan if it doesn't work exactly how I thought and put faith in that.

I never found Christianity to be something that offered joy and healing. To me it creates an imaginary danger and then offers an imaginary solution. I suppose there could be a sense of relief from even an imaginary danger.

I am no longer interested in putting any more energy into imaginary dangers.

[cardw]

Sonny,

Just announcing that I'm going to suffer the 2nd death means nothing to me.

No evidence, no truth.

No results, no truth.

You offer neither. So no truth.

[Woody]

Thanks for being in the confessional booth for the moment CoA. Don't worry. It happens to the best of us.