Unpardonable, unmentionable, unforgiven.

[Nicodema]

Nan posted to Graeme on another thread:

Quote:

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I firmly believe that the only unpardonable sin is the one for which no repentance is felt. In one sense the ultimate human act of pride is to say that we have sins too big for Christ's sacrifice to cover.

---

My response:

But what if you feel no repentance and you honestly are not "proud" about having sins "too big" for Christ to cover, but genuinely fearful that you've crossed the line and there's no going back? That you've done yourself in for all intents and purposes and will never be restored in Him? That you've hardened your heart beyond all repair? When I compare the person I am now to the person I was when I was younger, it is devastating. I used to be so forgiving and loving and open, warm and free inside, receptive to others; now I am bitter and unforgiving, closed off, closed in upon myself, hard and cold inside, rejecting of others. Even seeking to return to God has not fixed this. I literally feel like the walking dead.

[Beryl]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

But what if you feel no repentance and you honestly are not "proud" about having sins "too big" for Christ to cover, but genuinely fearful that you've crossed the line and there's no going back?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Nico, dear, there is one text that covers what you are feeling -- "For God so loved the world that WHOSOEVER believeth on Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16.

I have not found anywhere in the Bible that gives any other requirement for salvation.

What happens AFTER we believe is that God begins to work in us, and He reveals changes that need to be made in our lives -- but even here, HE will make those changes in us -- we just have to keep our sticky fingers out of the way, and let Him get on with the business of changing us.

It is as He reveals the need for those changes that we sometimes feel that we are still in need of cleansing, and the old devil is always there to remind us of our shortcomings. It is the devil who is the accuser -- never God.

So, when you feel so bad, remember that you ARE ALREADY a child of God -- regardless of how you feel.

Love,

Beryl

[Pockey]

Nico I apologize, this is slightly OT, but I need to ask this. I never realized or thought that it is pride when we say our sins are too big for Jesus to forgive. I'm still trying to digest that. Can someone please break it down and explain it for me?

[Nan]

Sid this is something I read once. I believe it is true, it can be seen as a rejection of God's promises - saying a human knows better than God. Paul says in Hebrews that God can save to the uttermost - then a human says he is worse than the uttermost.

And I also believe that the thought is at least encouraged by the evil one who will do all he can to separate people from God.

Having said all that, I know, as Nico says, a lot of people have the feeling that they are beyond the forgiveness of God. That feeling has presumably been a cause for suicides, it must bring overwhelming despair.

And then we come to the crunch in Beryl's post. Jesus loves and wants whoever will come - no limitations. That is the message we all need.

[Tom Wetmore]

Nico,

The wisdom that I heard some time ago was that if you worry that you might have committed the unpardonable sin, you really haven't. The jist of that is that if you are still able to grasp that you have a sin problem, no matter how confused, vague or ill-defined it may be, there is hope for you. The sensitivity to the problem is confirmation that the conscience is not so dulled that it no longer matters.

It to me is like the idea that the opposite of love is not hate, but apathy. It is like the lukewarm of Revelation, feeling nothing, positive or negative. It is the inablity to feel or care at all, one way or the other, any more.

Tom

[Nicodema]

It is good to hear from you again, Tom -- I've missed you.

I've heard the same thing you mention above, and I'd be ready to grasp onto it if it were not for this haunting notion about "even the devils believe, and tremble." Cognizance of one's impending doom cannot, in itself, be sufficient to count as awareness of a sin problem in the repentant sense. Neither can a merely guilt-ridden conscience. Remember the difference between Judas and Peter.

I appreciate your effort though.

N.

[Pockey]

Although what Tom is saying may not be repentance, perhaps it is recognizing one's need for God, an essential step towards repentance. Nico, you asked, "what if you feel no repentance?" EGW said "we can no more repent without the Spirit of Christ to awaken the conscience than we can be pardoned without Christ"{SC}. It is impossible to repent on our own! He alone can place enmity against sin.

I was just thinking about this today, how often I need to ask Him to place in my heart enmity against sin, because I just can't do it by myself. I don't think he wants me to be a hermit, but even while doing the simplest of tasks I seem to create a snafu, whether it's driving and someone cutting me off, and I end up getting [censored] and I start cursing, or having an encounter with a rude cashier person at the market and ditto occurs. The good news is that He alone can and will bring me to repentance, confession, and forgiveness if I ask and believe.

Peace,

Sid

[Pockey]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Sid this is something I read once. I believe it is true, it can be seen as a rejection of God's promises - saying a human knows better than God. Paul says in Hebrews that God can save to the uttermost - then a human says he is worse than the uttermost.

And I also believe that the thought is at least encouraged by the evil one who will do all he can to separate people from God.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I think I understand. It does make sense. Thanks Nan.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi, I was moved when I saw this post this morning and I signed up for this so I could reply.

I became an Adventist in 81 in Edmonton Canada. Shortly after (82)that I moved to Seale AL to get some medical missionary training. Uchee Pines (I met my wife there) was the place and I learned a lot about what we as SDA's should be doing. It was great and I gave myself to the message 100%. I stayed there for about 2 years and then went to Country life in NY. My experience started to slide there. I moved back to Ontario Canada. Within a year my experience was gone and I was slowly getting interested in the world.

In 86 I left church and God to live the way I wanted to.

fast forward 8 years - I'm sitting in a jail cell after beating some guy into unconciousness. I was suicidal and lost. I attempted 3 times but did not have the will to die. But I did not want to live either. My heart was cold but yet it was hurting so badly. Finally I decided to get some help because if I didn't I knew I would not make it.

I went through 35 days of rehab and started rebuilding my life. it wasn't till 2 years later that I walked through the church doors. I was with a girl that I dated on and off. The Pastor, my friend who I avoided for all those years was sitting on the up front getting ready to preach.

Our eyes met and I saw him cry. After all that I had done he was sitting there so happy to see this dead sinner that he cried. That showed me the heart of God!

I was rebaptized in about 2 months and even though I knew all our doctines well, I decided to go over everything again as though I was a new Adventist.

There were things that I new I shouldn't be doing but I told myself, Norman just work on getting to know God and He'll take those desires away. I did and I have never had an experience like that in my life. I was free from the rules that I used to make up and the misconceptions that I learned as an Adventist. I was happy and new that God was my Father and Jesus was my Savior.

I have learned alot since those days and I have told you these things so you could understand where I'm coming from when I tell you what I'm about to tell you.

I have learned that God is much more interested in me than in my behavior. Behavior is the expression of my beliefs and values. When I understood and chose to believe how much He loves me, I was so much more interested in Him. That led me to read, pray, share and see God working in my life like never before. My beliefs and values were changed by the experience that I went through and am going through.

I have also learned that there is no sin that He will not forgive, none. I thought as you did at one point I wondered had I gone too far. The thought now hits me, what sin that I committed was so bad that Jesus's sacrifice was not sufficient to cover? He went through so much anguish, so much more than we can know, so that I could trust and beleive, how could I doubt?

Just after coming back to church I was going through the motions. I knew that I was supposed to love God but I didn't and I told Him so. I begged Him to help me after I read the message to the Laodician church and realized that it was me that was being described. I wepted bitterely as I thought of Him vomitting me out of His mouth, abhorring me as it were because I was so indifferent about what He did for me personally. (I thought about when I ate liver as a kid, gagging and spitting the stuff out, it felt so gross) I saw myself as being like that to Jesus. After that He gave me the abilty to love my father in heaven.

I have learned not to base my feelings on what I do and I know that God loved me just as much then as He does now. Because of our Lord and Savior Jesus.

Remember this; you can not sin so much that God will reject you. (The fires of destruction are prepared for the devil and his angels, meaning there's always opportunity for us to turn to God) I have personally gone through this and know it to be a fact. It is possible however to damage yourself so that you'll think God will not accept or forgive you. (Enter Judas) But you have not been there yet or you would have no interest in having your heart renewed so you could love again. When you pray know that we are praying for you and know that Jesus is praying for you. When you stand up smile in your heart and thank God from your heart for what He has done and will do.

I want to write more but I don't want to burden you with a long post, this is too long as it is.

In Christ,

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

My long post was meant for Nicodema, but came out with Sid's name on it. I'll get the hang of this sooner or later.

Norman

[Nan]

Norm good to have you here and I appreciate your post very much.

If you want to make a reply to any post, click on that post, not the most recent - and the name you want will then appear on your post. (if that makes sense!)

[Stan]

HI Norman, and welcome here.

Appreciate your testamony, it will give hope to those who struggle.

Am thinking we may know each other, I used to bring the ABC up to Edmonton about the time you were there.

Thanks

Stan

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Thanks for the encouragement and posting lesson.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Stan, it is possible that we have met. I joined the church when Herb Larson was doing a crusade. I was brought to the crusade by the Ficko family and then became friends with them, Randy Zive as well. We used to hang out and we did go to some of the camp meetings. Pastor Mel Djicovich (don't remember how to spell it) baptized me.

There are other's that I'm sure we both know.

Norman

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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It is possible however to damage yourself so that you'll think God will not accept or forgive you. (Enter Judas)

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Enter Judas followed by me, that is. That is a perfect description of my condition. I am not responsible for all the damage however. There were severe damages done at the very end that ironically eventually led to me wanting to come back "home" to Him, but which decimated what was left of me so that there isn't anyone here anymore to return.

Quote:

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But you have not been there yet or you would have no interest in having your heart renewed so you could love again.

---

Not necessarily. The mind can remember what is now lost forever, and in hell there are still a few kinds of feeling left: wrath and pain for starters.

I'm trapped here. This flesh is my prison. My identity is my tomb. My existence is empty; I am an ancient absence.

[Nan]

Nico I do not know if this will have meaning for you, but have you recently considered Paul's statement "I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself for me." (Gal 2:20, NIV) The Son of God can resurrect those old dry bones, of Ezekiel's day and ours.

[Nicodema]

Yes Nan, I have considered those words. I remember what it was like to have that be my reality. I would love to have that be my reality again. When it was my reality it was done by God as His miracle. He would have to do so again. There is nothing I can do to bring that about myself.

I have had the experience. Pretense will not suffice here. I must have the experience again, or perish.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

I have been there, and not wanting to live and actually attempting to take my life. That was the only way that I saw that would help me. You have to believe me when I tell you that God can bring to life anything that is dead. (I was spiritually dead) He can cure cancer, raise the dead, give sight to the blind and restore your heart.

You can choose to believe that and watch what happens. Feelings are of no use when it comes to what God is doing.

As I did, you have to choose to focus on what God will do. I have lost friends who have given up and they had so much potential if they had only believed what God saw in them and that He loved them so much. Young, not even in their 30's and they saw no hope, it was such a waste and so sad. Just because the mind is damaged it doesn't mean it can't be healed by God if you just give Him time. When I said Judas had damaged himself that doesn't mean he couldn't have chosen to be healed, he thought he had gone too far. He did not turn to anyone for help as you are doing now.

I had to make some difficult choices but when the truth about God touched me I chose to believe in His love.

This helped me alot. When Adam sinned he lost everything and inherited death and passed that on to us. All was lost by unblief. In Adam we are all doomed to die. When Jesus came He became one of us so that He could die for our sins. Everyone has all sins paid for, past, present and future. He revealed the character of the Father that Satan had so maligned. Now we can regain what Adam lost by unbelief through belief.

We are made righteous be trusting and believing what God is like as we see Him in His Son and accepting what Jesus has done for us. The bottom line is that we are saved or lost according to what we believe about God's thoughts and feeling towards us. If you choose to believe that you are lost, you can be, but if you choose to believe that you are saved (not because of anything you might do) you will be and your feelings and heart will follow.

“Some seem to feel that they must be on probation, and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But they may claim the blessing of God even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot resist evil. Jesus loves to have us come to Him just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent. We may come with all our weakness, our folly, our sinfulness, and fall at His feet in penitence. It is His glory to encircle us in the arms of His love and to bind up our wounds, to cleanse us from all impurity.

Here is where thousands fail; they do not believe that Jesus pardons them personally, individually. They do not take God at His word. It is the privilege of all who comply with the conditions to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin. Put away the suspicion that God's promises are not meant for you. They are for every repentant transgressor. Strength and grace have been provided through Christ to be brought by ministering angels to every believing soul. None are so sinful that they cannot find strength, purity, and righteousness in Jesus, who died for them. He is waiting to strip them of their garments stained and polluted with sin, and to put upon them the white robes of righteousness; He bids them live and not die.”

The conditions start with belief.

time for me to go to bed

Good night and God bless

You are in our prayers,

In Christ,

Norman

[Nicodema]

"Choose to believe" is gibberish to me. I don't have access to that. When I try to explain that to people, they just get contrary with me and start arguments and try to lay blame or judgments on me, make up falsehoods about me, or in some other way try to villianize or hurt me over it, so I don't "go there" anymore.

I cannot even hear or read such words without becoming feral, irrational, and rather unfit for mixed company ... and you're new here ... wouldn't want to subject you to ... well ... to my afflictions. So I will thank you for your kind intentions and take my leave for the time being.

Peace ...

N.

[Pockey]

You're right Nico. I apologize. I am telling you things you already know as if you don't know them. I don't know what damage went down, but I know that I accept you as you are and am here for you. And if I, who am evil, accepts you, think how much more YHWH accepts you.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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**I'd be ready to grasp onto it if it were not for this haunting notion about "even the devils believe, and tremble."

***Cognizance of one's impending doom cannot, in itself, be sufficient to count as awareness of a sin problem in the repentant sense. Neither can a merely guilt-ridden conscience.

N.

---

Nico,

Re: ** That was a Scripture that use to bother me also. It's probably one of the few Scripture texts that I've found a strong importance to read in context. You no doubt

recognize it as being used by strong fundamentalist Adventists, warning that even the best of disciples cannot tell the difference between whether our motivation for duty is from the kingdom of darkness or from the Prince of light.

This attitude belies the very words of Jesus.

[:"red"] "The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me." [/] John 10:27 AMP

Notice in the following text that the belief referred to by the devil's angels has nothing to do with the faith of or in

Jesus. It's only a recognition there is one God, something anybody can assent to merely by intellectual knowledge. It's the same kind of knowledge the prince of darkness has about the Scripture. Intellectual but totally devoid of love.

[:"red"] "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."[/] James 2:19 KJV

When we debate the Scripture based upon how much we know, without a deep abiding love for the person we are debating with, we do no more than what satan does with us when we debate him in what the meaning of the text is.

[:"red"] "And if I have prophetic powers (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God's love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody)." [/] 1 Cor 13:2

The achievement of that state of mind is not natural for the sons of men, but comes as a recreative supernatural event through the powers of the Holy Spirit, over the lifetime of the participant who invites God (Who is Love) into their lives on a moment by moment journey with Him.

Re: *** I was set at rest through a couple of truths Paul experienced in his life, after admitting his total incapability to live fully as God wished him to.

[:"red"] "O unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from [the shackles of] this body of death?

O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed One) our Lord!" [/] Romans 7:24,25 AMP

[:"red"]"What about me? Have I been faithful? Well, it matters very little what you or anyone else thinks. I don't even trust my own judgment on this point. My conscience is clear, but that isn't what matters. It is the Lord himself who will examine me and decide." [/] 1 Cor 4:3,4

Keep inviting the Lord of life into yours, whatever your emotions. The changes will come as you rub shoulders with Nobility. A key is submit and resist.

[:"red"] "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." [/] James 4:7 KJV

Blessings!

Lift Jesus up!!

[Nicodema]

Sid I haven't the faintest idea what you're on about ... my post was in response to Norman's ... "choose to believe" is gibberish, you might as well tell me Oooky booky boo is the key to knowing God for all it means to me ... I do thank you for your acceptance though. You have made it clear from day one here that you accept me and have been a real brother to me and that marks you as Truly His in my eyes, for whatever that's worth.

{{{{{{{Sid}}}}}}}

"That you may be children of your Father who is in heaven, for He is kind even to the unthankful and the evil."

[Nicodema]

Quote:

---

“Some seem to feel that they must be on probation, and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But they may claim the blessing of God even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot resist evil. Jesus loves to have us come to Him just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent. We may come with all our weakness, our folly, our sinfulness, and fall at His feet in penitence. It is His glory to encircle us in the arms of His love and to bind up our wounds, to cleanse us from all impurity.

Here is where thousands fail; they do not believe that Jesus pardons them personally, individually. They do not take God at His word. It is the privilege of all who comply with the conditions to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin. Put away the suspicion that God's promises are not meant for you. They are for every repentant transgressor. Strength and grace have been provided through Christ to be brought by ministering angels to every believing soul. None are so sinful that they cannot find strength, purity, and righteousness in Jesus, who died for them. He is waiting to strip them of their garments stained and polluted with sin, and to put upon them the white robes of righteousness; He bids them live and not die.”

---

I do love this passage by the way. I just want to know the full experience in my being, in my flesh, in my body, in my mind and heart and soul, of this, not just pretending it's so in hopes it will come true.

[Nicodema]

Thank you again, LHC, you always have such soundness and compassion in your posts to me, I feel sometimes like you are my very own angel or counselor -- well, at least when I can understand what you are saying! Yesterday I felt it very hard to resist the devil, which is becoming blended in my mind with a familiar sort of "psychotic" frame of mind that overtakes me from time to time (I call it psychotic because it has symptoms of psychosis in it like paranoia, grandiosity, etc.) What I need to do also is listen to the Lord's explanations for things as well, even if they don't make sense to me. If the Holy Spirit is telling me my vulnerability or weakness at the moment is because I'm having an unforgiving spirit then I need to listen to that instead of trying to understand it because I might not be able to understand it sufficiently. He was telling me I was having an unforgiving spirit yesterday. Does this stuff ever get any easier? I feel so confused all the time and like everything I do or say is wrong and can or will be held against me in my own conscience. I just want peace, and to stop hurting, and to stop doing wrong all the time.

[cricket]

Norman, I'm glad you're here.

Nico, I'm really glad you're here.

Short on time and short on words this morning.

Still wish you were coming to St. Louis.

I know, I know, I know.

~Chrys