RFRA

[Stan]

Walter

If you would quit impersonating the Adventist Church you would not have these problems.

[Pastor_Chick]

Walter

If you would quit impersonating the Adventist Church you would not have these problems.

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." Matt. 24:12

Stan, you are the ONLY person I have read making that false accusation. The court has found otherwise, and the General Conference attorneys have not discovered ONE instance of "actual confusion" between the CSDA Church and the SDA Church.

For the sake of those who might take your words seriously and be tempted to agree with you, I will relate a situation that happened some years ago.

There was a couple disgruntled with their SDA Church (and the General Conference), so they decided they wanted to send tithe to our church secretary. I found out about them sending money to our coffers, but I also discovered that they were still members of the General Conference Church that they held a grievance with. I asked our church to send the money to the church of that couples' membership with a note saying that we were not willing to accept funds donated to us from members of the SDA Church. Of course, a copy of the correspondence was sent to the couple as well. Needless to say, the couple sent us no more money.

Unfortunately, the letter of law is currently held out more prominently than the spirit of law, just as it was in the days of Christ.

If "impersonating" the SDA Church was my/our "crime," then I would be required to repent or face the frown of an offended God in the judgment. As it stands, I am only "guilty" of "plucking grain on the Sabbath."

Please think about it, my brother.

[CoAspen]

Why not just shake the dust off your feet and move on? Was that not the message given to the disciples? You have come on this private forum through the graciousness of its owner and pontificated away against the mainline SDA church, for what reason? Should we take a poll to see who is listening? Is it helping your cause? Is this all about you, that is the way it is coming across in your posts? Would not your time and efforts be better spent elsewhere?

Think about it.

[Pastor_Chick]

For those having some interest in the RFRA and McGill's petition, the U. S. Supreme Court has published the result of their April 15th conference.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/Search.aspx?FileName=/docketfiles/10-902.htm

The decision firmly restricts me from ever visiting my homeland again. It is admittedly disturbing to me that few Seventh-day Adventist believers care.

What could be even more disturbing is that most non-SDAs (Christians and non-Christians alike), who are aware of the conflict, express shock at the activities of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination regarding corporate image protection via the civil power.

I wonder how many will stand on the sidelines and cheer when my associate, Lucan Chartier, is incarcerated for conscience' sake.

As for you, CoAspen, I have more than thought about your words of counsel to me below. I have prayed for many days, both for you and for me.

Why not just shake the dust off your feet and move on? Was that not the message given to the disciples? You have come on this private forum through the graciousness of its owner and pontificated away against the mainline SDA church, for what reason? Should we take a poll to see who is listening? Is it helping your cause? Is this all about you, that is the way it is coming across in your posts? Would not your time and efforts be better spent elsewhere?

Think about it.

[BarbaraLynn]

I found this site that provides all the relevant legal documents.

http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cas...day-adventists/

[Stan]

Pastor Chick...

Have you ever thought about the possibility that you are in error on this?

I did not see anything in there saying you could not come back to the USA.

Why are you saying that?

Thanks

[Stan]

I am not saying that in a hostile voice or tone.

[Pastor_Chick]

Pastor Chick...

Have you ever thought about the possibility that you are in error on this?

I did not see anything in there saying you could not come back to the USA.

Why are you saying that?

Thanks

[Naraiel]

I also have another link to share,

http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cas...day-adventists/

---------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings to all,

I have been busy lately, but after reading all the posts of this topic, to my surprise, I noticed that not many Adventists have referred to the Word of God or to Ellen White's Writtings, with textual context included, to support their own position.

How can someone understand the mind of Christ, or even share it, if he or she is not familiarized with the Principles of His Word, His Kingdom, but instead defends the principles and the mind of the dragon?

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman [Christ’s Church],and went to make war [persecution, prosecution or confiscation by force] with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The only statements I have read from the majority [not all] are based only on the world's mentality. However, the mind or mentality of Christ is completely contrary to the mentality or mind of the world, [the dragon]. And His words are also completely contrary to the rude and impatient words of carnal men. Christ and His converted brothers and sisters share the same mind and Holy Spirit. They all share the idea of Liberty and Individuality.

My question would be ¿Who are the true Christians or Seventh day Adventists?, or in other words ¿Who do you think God will regard as a true Christian SDA?

¿Are true SDAs, according to God's standards and principles, only those who are proud of being part of a nominal organization, in spite of all the evil, rebellious, and sinful practices that have been executed there, against God, and their fellow men?

The Lord of Hosts says:

"Stand in the gate of the Lord's house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, [nominal Adventists] that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place. Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, [the SDA organization] The temple of the LORD,[the SDA organization] The temple of the LORD,[the SDA organization] is this.

"For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour; If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods [lawyers, the world, earthly governments, mammon, personal opinions, etc] to your hurt: Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever. Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit [worths nothing to the Creator]

“Will ye steal, murder, and commit [spiritual] adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods [other teachings] whom ye know not; And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?

“Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD. But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel.

“And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the LORD, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not; Therefore will I do unto this house,[this SDA organization] which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh. Jeremias 7:2-14.24

[…] But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward,[back to apostasy] and not forward [to restoration of God’s true worship].

“Since the day that your fathers [sDA pioneers ] came forth out of the land of Egypt [sin] unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, [Apostles, Reformers, Ellen White, and other inspired messengers] daily rising up early and sending them: Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck.

[…] “Thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation [a people] that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth [inspired] correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth. […]For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.” Jeremiah 7:1-14, 24-26,30 [Read whole passage]

Are true Christian SDAs those who follow Christ in "all intent and purposes", preserving the purity of God's teachings and living the pure Gospel revealed to the first SDA Pioneers? Are true Christians those whose conscience are completely solidified in God's Word and inspiring counsels, and follow with all their heart ALL divine instruction given to them.”?

¿Who is the only one who can judge over individual’s consciences and individuals' religious convictions?

A fallen government, represented by a worldly judge, or the Heavenly Kingdom, represented by a Most Holy Creator and Author of the Holy Scriptures?

If the SDA church organization has accepted the dragon’s mind, or the spirit of the papacy, it is normal that all its members will start to share, or be influenced by, the same mind and a desire to agree to use forceful means to restrict the religious liberty [liberty of conscience] of other individuals who are disturbing Israel.

“And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, [Art] thou he that troubleth Israel? And he answered, I have not troubled Israel; but thou, and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of the LORD, and thou hast followed Baalim.” 1 Kings 18:18

Baalim or Baal means “lord”.

¿Are all Adventists sure that they are worshipping following, and contemplating the right “lord”? That is to say, the Creator of Heaven and Earth described in the Holy Scriptures?

We better self-examined our hearts and minds, and make sure that we are not following blindly a “strange god” or “an inaccurate image of Christ, formed by human opinions or carnal ideas”, that DOES NOT AGREE witho the Bible’s description of Jehova’s character. Besides, all of us will be judge in accordance with the principles and instructions of the Word of God

Jesus warns His disciples, the woman of Rev 12, the following:

“They [nominal Jewish] shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.” Jhon 16: 2-3

Blessings,

Naraiel

Note: I wish to clarify something, if anyone here is tempted to think that I am personally against any individual member of the SDA Nominal Organization, please reject that thought, for it is not true. My intention here was to reveal that before the Creator of Heaven and Earth, a nominal profession of faith does not profit nothing, and is not enough to identified any person as a true Christian or Seventh day Adventist. The LORD of Hosts is the One who authorizes the usage of any name, He Chooses for His Remnant people [Cristian or SDA name], to those who follow ALL His instructions and His light by heart. The Spirit of the Papacy ,thru human history, has always exalted itself against God, and always has tried to usurp His place, jurisdiction, and own His authority. Be aware that the Spirit of the Papacy is not only confined to the Vatican or to the Catholic Church.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

Be aware that the Spirit of the Papacy is not only confined to the Vatican or to the Catholic Church.

Thank you, Naraiel, for your information. Your last sentence struck me most significantly. I think it was Pastor Alonzo T. Jones that wrote something to that effect.

While the majority of professed, or as you have said, "nominal" Seventh-day Adventists today agree with using the civil power to protect their name and corporate image, that was not the belief of our pioneers.

Here is a graphic from the 1895 General Conference Bulletin.

And a search of the inspired writings gives some appropriate commentary on the message that was given by Jones and Waggoner at the 1888 Conference.

Those who utilize the civil court system to deny others their religious rights, are violators of the Sabbath commandment.

The RFRA does apply, but America has repudiated every principle of the United States Constitution.

[skyblue888]

reposted on page 15

[skyblue888]

Today I became aware of this thread. I spent just about all day reading it. I just finished. Wow! So very interesting. I have been aware of these "trademark" lawsuits for many years except that I had not been kept informed as to the latest developments re: the CSDA vs G.C. case. But I am now. I did once get in touch with the CSDA online and read some of their literature. I did not agree with everything they were teaching but they had every right to teach it. As far as this court case is concerned I can say that I wholeheartedly sympathize with Pastor Chick.

As I just read about the "confiscations" on the part of the G.C. with the help of the civil authorities, I couldn't help but being reminded of the dream Mrs. White had, one night, in Battle Creek.

I think it would be good, at this point, to read it and ponder over it:

"That night I dreamed that I was in Battle Creek looking out from the side glass at the door and saw a company marching up to the house, two and two. They looked stern and determined. I knew them well and turned to open the parlor door to receive them, but thought I would look again. The company now presented the appearance of a Catholic procession. One bore in his hand a cross, another a reed. And as they apporached, the one carrying a reed make a circle around the house, saying three times: 'This house has been proscribed. The goods must be confiscated. They have spoken against our holy order.' Terror sezied me, and I ran through the house, out of the north door, and found myself in the midst of a company, some of whom I knew, but I dared not speak a word to them for fear of being betrayed. I tried to seek a retired spot where I might weep and pray without meeting eager, inquisitive eyes wherever I turned. I repeated frequently: 'If I could only understand this! If they will tell me what I have said or what I have done!'

I wept and prayed much as I saw our goods confiscated. I tried to read sympathy or pity for me in the looks of those around me, and marked the countenances of several whom I thought would speak to me and comfort me if they did not fear that they would be observed by others. I made one attempt to escape from the crowd, but seeing that I was watched, I concealed my intentions. I commenced weeping aloud, and saying: 'If they would only tell me what I have done or what I have said!' My husband, who was sleeping in a bed in the same room, heard me weeping aloud and awoke me. My pillow was wet with tears, and a sad depression of spirits was upon me." Testimonies, Vol.1, p.578.

This amazing dream speaks for itself, does it not?

sky

The Lord gave us the name "Seventh-day Adventists" but when did He ever say that it was to be trademarked?

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

As far as this court case is concerned I can say that I wholeheartedly sympathize with Pastor Chick.

[...]

This amazing dream speaks for itself, does it not?

sky

The Lord gave us the name "Seventh-day Adventists" but when did He ever say that it was to be trademarked?

sky,

Thanks for the encouraging post. I read few of them coming from SDA believers regarding this lawsuit.

It would really be helpful if you could assist in getting this case publicized among Adventists. The GC has kept it "under a lid" so the members will not know and have the option for protest. Since the Supreme Court denied our petition, there are no further appeals afforded us.

On a final note, you might want to consider the concept of "corporate accountability." It applies here.

[skyblue888]

Your welcome brother. As far as "corporate accountability" is concerned, we are to emulate Daniel the prophet, re: chapter 9:1-19.

[Pastor_Chick]

Your welcome brother. As far as "corporate accountability" is concerned, we are to emulate Daniel the prophet, re: chapter 9:1-19.

sky,

I was thinking of yet another part of the concept advanced by the late Pastor William Grotheer. His original work has been slightly adapted.

http://csdachurch.loveneverfails.ltd.ug/account.html

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think it would be good, at this point, to read it and ponder over it:

"That night I dreamed that I was in Battle Creek looking out from the side glass at the door and saw a company marching up to the house, two and two. They looked stern and determined. I knew them well and turned to open the parlor door to receive them, but thought I would look again. The company now presented the appearance of a Catholic procession. One bore in his hand a cross, another a reed. And as they apporached, the one carrying a reed make a circle around the house, saying three times: 'This house has been proscribed. The goods must be confiscated. They have spoken against our holy order.' Terror sezied me, and I ran through the house, out of the north door, and found myself in the midst of a company, some of whom I knew, but I dared not speak a word to them for fear of being betrayed. I tried to seek a retired spot where I might weep and pray without meeting eager, inquisitive eyes wherever I turned. I repeated frequently: 'If I could only understand this! If they will tell me what I have said or what I have done!'

I wept and prayed much as I saw our goods confiscated. I tried to read sympathy or pity for me in the looks of those around me, and marked the countenances of several whom I thought would speak to me and comfort me if they did not fear that they would be observed by others. I made one attempt to escape from the crowd, but seeing that I was watched, I concealed my intentions. I commenced weeping aloud, and saying: 'If they would only tell me what I have done or what I have said!' My husband, who was sleeping in a bed in the same room, heard me weeping aloud and awoke me. My pillow was wet with tears, and a sad depression of spirits was upon me." Testimonies, Vol.1, p.578.

This amazing dream speaks for itself, does it not?

Sounds as though Ellen had a bad pizza for supper..

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Your welcome brother. As far as "corporate accountability" is concerned, we are to emulate Daniel the prophet, re: chapter 9:1-19.

sky,

I was thinking of yet another part of the concept advanced by the late Pastor William Grotheer. His original work has been slightly adapted.

http://csdachurch.loveneverfails.ltd.ug/account.html

Oh my old friend Grotheer! I did not know he had passed away. When? There is no signature at the bottom of this article. Are you saying that brother Grotheer became a member of CSDA?

"These saints, now called “Creation Seventh-day Adventists,” realize that the Jerusalem "which now is... is in bondage with their children," therefore, they transfer their allegiance and loyalty to the "[New] Jerusalem which is above" which "is free, which is the mother of us all." (Gal. 4:25, 26) Creation Seventh-day Adventists invite all “devout men of Israel” to “come out” of the “old structure” and join them in answer to the prayer of Christ in John 17."

Did Grotheer write this?

sky

[skyblue888]

Please let me share a few insights from the writings of Ellen G. White which present an important aspect of the last message of mercy, first to the church and then to the world:

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature FAR ABOVE that which Adam forfeited by transgression." E.G. White, The Upward Look, 18.

In order to begin to get a glimpse of what this really means, we need to read this:

"Christ places His own merits upon man and thus elevates him in the scales of moral value with God." E.G. White, Our Father Cares, p.121.

Wow!!!

"The exaltation of the redeemed will be an eternal testimony to God's mercy." Desire of Ages,26.

"By gentle and patient ministry the angels move upon the human spirit, to bring the lost into a fellowship with Christ which is even closer than they themselves can know." D.A.21.

The redeemed will be one with God as Christ is one with the Father. Is this not the "unfathomable gift." 2 Cor.9:15.

Since this gift is unfathomable, we cannot speculate as to what it really means but we know that it means that the redeemed will be forever one with Christ and the Father. And this is a marvel to the angels who have never sinned, and their great joy!

"The declaration in His intercessory prayer, that the Father's love is as great toward us as toward Himself, the only-begotten Son, and that we shall be with Him where He is, forever one with Christ and the Father, is a marvel to the heavenly host, and it is their great joy." E.G. White, Testimonies to Ministers, p.18.

Somewhere else she quotes Isaiah 9:6 "Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace," and then says, "Does not that say that I and my Father are one?" F.W.75.

What a union is this!

"He gave Him not only to bear our sins, and to die as our sacrifice; He gave Him to the fallen race." D.A.25.

And "In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

Col.2:9,10; Eph.3:14-19.

Is this not the light that is to lighten the whole earth with its glory?

sky

This experience is to be ours now if by faith we appropriate the merits of the Son of God by claiming them for Jesus was treated according to our demerits that we might be treated according to His merits. See D.A.25.

[Pastor_Chick]

Oh my old friend Grotheer! I did not know he had passed away. When? There is no signature at the bottom of this article. Are you saying that brother Grotheer became a member of CSDA?

"These saints, now called “Creation Seventh-day Adventists,” realize that the Jerusalem "which now is... is in bondage with their children," therefore, they transfer their allegiance and loyalty to the "[New] Jerusalem which is above" which "is free, which is the mother of us all." (Gal. 4:25, 26) Creation Seventh-day Adventists invite all “devout men of Israel” to “come out” of the “old structure” and join them in answer to the prayer of Christ in John 17."

Did Grotheer write this?

sky

sky,

Pastor Grotheer wrote the article over 15 years ago (as I recall). It was adapted soon after we received it.

He never had an interest in any work except is own ALF. He did agree to support us in our defense during the trademark lawsuit, but since the case never went to trial, he was not involved.

In my book, "Finally, Out of Darkness..." I published the article giving original credit to him.

[Pastor_Chick]

sky,

I thoroughly enjoy the inspiration of EGW. In fact, I appreciate ALL inspiration of the Spirit of God.

Sometimes, in context, it is difficult for me to perceive the applications to the topic being discussed. Nevertheless, thank you for sharing.

It is beneficial to take into account that you and CSDAs see "the Church" in a different place. You have no idea what God is doing in the Body we claim as "His Church," but I can assure you, we are being fitted for translation as sanctification continues.

[skyblue888]

Brother Chick, this message must be proclaimed in latter rain power to the church before the message goes to the world.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

Brother Chick, this message must be proclaimed in latter rain power to the church before the message goes to the world.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 was highly supported by the leaders and legal experts of the SDA Church. You may have read the Adventist Review, Dec. 9, 1993 article titled “Victory for Religious Freedom” wherein Gary M. Ross, the author, touted the RFRA as of great significance to “Adventists and Christians in general.”

In a trademark lawsuit that has been successfully hidden from the Adventist constituency up to this time, the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in favor of the Adventist Church organizations involved based on an application of RFRA that has split the circuit courts in our nation. (see GCC v. McGill) The three-member panel opined that the RFRA does not apply in private-party lawsuits.

McGill has filed a cert. petition in the Supreme Court that is being highly contested by the GCC. In the event this case is heard by the US Supreme Court, it is possible that the GCC will lose its power to prevail in future trademark lawsuits respecting the name SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST.

What are your thoughts on this matter? Have you any knowledge of this lawsuit?

Since page one, this thread has taken a few "rabbit trails." I am not really being critical of that, since discovery is sometimes facilitated by such. I have, however, thought to revisit the initial topic and see if any "fresh input" is available from the readers.

For your information (and to assist you with the updates), my petition for certiorari was DENIED by the U. S. Supreme Court. All options for appeal have been exhausted.

"What are your thoughts on this matter? Have you any knowledge of this lawsuit?"

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Brother Chick, this message must be proclaimed in latter rain power to the church before the message goes to the world.

sky

Hello sky,

Originally Posted By: EGW

We may be sure that when the Holy Spirit is poured out, those who did not receive and

appreciate the early rain will not see or understand the value of the latter rain

. When we are truly consecrated to God, His love will abide in our hearts by faith and we will cheerfully do our duty, in accordance with the will of God.

Originally Posted By: EGW

Only those who are living up to the light they have will receive greater light. Unless we are daily advancing in the exemplification of the active Christian virtues, we shall not recognize the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the latter rain. It may be falling on hearts all around us, but we shall not discern or receive it. (TM 507)

That is exactly what has happened.

Originally Posted By: EGW

Those who come up to every point, and stand every test, and overcome, be the price what it may, have heeded the counsel of the True Witness, and they will receive the latter rain, and thus be fitted for translation.

I certainly agree with these statements.

Solemn.

The latter rain will prepare God's people for translation as they will grow up into Christ until they reflect His character fully and will be ready to face the great final test which comes at the close of human probation.

sky

[skyblue888]

Quote:

=Pastor_Chick]

The Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 was highly supported by the leaders and legal experts of the SDA Church. You may have read the Adventist Review, Dec. 9, 1993 article titled “Victory for Religious Freedom” wherein Gary M. Ross, the author, touted the RFRA as of great significance to “Adventists and Christians in general.”

In a trademark lawsuit that has been successfully hidden from the Adventist constituency up to this time, the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in favor of the Adventist Church organizations involved based on an application of RFRA that has split the circuit courts in our nation. (see GCC v. McGill) The three-member panel opined that the RFRA does not apply in private-party lawsuits.

McGill has filed a cert. petition in the Supreme Court that is being highly contested by the GCC. In the event this case is heard by the US Supreme Court, it is possible that the GCC will lose its power to prevail in future trademark lawsuits respecting the name SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST.

What are your thoughts on this matter? Have you any knowledge of this lawsuit?

Since page one, this thread has taken a few "rabbit trails." I am not really being critical of that, since discovery is sometimes facilitated by such. I have, however, thought to revisit the initial topic and see if any "fresh input" is available from the readers.

For your information (and to assist you with the updates), my petition for certiorari was DENIED by the U. S. Supreme Court. All options for appeal have been exhausted.

"What are your thoughts on this matter? Have you any knowledge of this lawsuit?"

Personally, I can't say I had knowledge of this particular lawsuit. It is with great interest that I have read about it in these threads.

I am not sure what they mean when they say that it does not apply to private-party lawsuits!

sky