It Must Be Possible To Stop Sinning

[John317]

What did you "thought"?

[Gordon1]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

Gerry, if our minds are subject to Christ, we will not err.

He will not lead into sin.

Subjection to the Father was Christ's example for us.

Been that route back in the 80's. The harder I tried, the more obvious the impossibility became. And the more miserable my family got. So I just got down on my knees and and prayed, "Lord, if sinless perfection is what you expect of me, count me out." Only the perfection of Christ's righteousness will ever meet the righteousness that the law requires. Compared to the righeousness of Christ, our righteousness will ever be like filthy rags!

Hi Gerry,

We have a different understanding of this matter. 'Trying hard' would frustrate/kill me too, but If I mouthed your prayer I would need to repent for murmuring. Jesus said His burden was light, not 'trying hard.' If this sounds like self-righteousness or holy flesh rattlings, so be it. Christ said 'my burden is light.' Those words have power and meaning for us today. John 3:17 has a much better view of the true calling as I see it, so I'll not repeat his posts.

Yes EGW wrote that we would be continually repenting. But overcoming is the privilege of the saints, because their entire duty is to place themselves in subjection to Christ. Few SDAs have considered this doctrine in any depth because it requires a change. Putting one's house in order. See hupotasso #5293.

Jesus was extreme. Extreme love for man, extremely concerned for His Father's Honor. Extremely ridiculed. But now He sits at the right hand of God! Happy Sabbath.

[Overaged]

Yes EGW wrote that we would be continually repenting. But overcoming is the privilege of the saints, because their entire duty is to place themselves in subjection to Christ.

What have we "overcome" if we have to "continually repent?" Can you relate this question to the scripture verses I quoted in the OP?

[Gordon1]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

Yes EGW wrote that we would be continually repenting. But overcoming is the privilege of the saints, because their entire duty is to place themselves in subjection to Christ.

What have we "overcome" if we have to "continually repent?" Can you relate this question to the scripture verses I quoted in the OP?

Hi OA,

Overcomers are just that - they are overcoming, active - not past tense. As Christ leads us to greater light we see the error of our course and repent. He is always leading, we are always learning if we follow.

We don't regress into old sin or reject light if we are overcoming. But even then the Bible says "And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1.

There's no need for debate on this topic. We all have Bibles and can read the epistles of John. They are clear, uplifting and brief, a very hopeful study.

[Woody]

Excellent Gordon.

I for one am still repenting.

And I find it Biblical to do so.

[John317]

What have we "overcome" if we have to "continually repent?"

Repentence for sin is not the same as overcoming sin. People can repent numerous times for committing a sin, but they may never overcome it. They may keep committing it. However, if they truly repent of a sin that the Holy Spirit convicts them of, they will eventually overcome it. They may return to it again and again, but if they continue to repent and confess it under the leading of the Spirit of God, they will ultimately overcome it.

It depends on how much we hate sin and whether we are willing to give up everything -- our very life-- for Christ. It takes some of us longer than others to reach that point. Jesus said that if we aren't willing to give up everything for him, we can't be his disciple.

[Christopher]

God empowers us to overcome all temptation (to sin).

Is not this what Jesus had and then choose not to give into any temptation, which if having given into the temptation would be sin. book of james

Christopher

[Gerr]

Quote:

our righteousness will ever be like filthy rags!

Gerry. I am impressed. Did you get this quote from me? Sure seems like it. I could hear myself saying the same thing.

Hmmmmmmmmm

Could be, but I thought it was from Isaiah! :)

However, you will never see or hear me say, "I will sin willfully until I die!"

[Gerr]

My belief is that we can have complete victory over sin and be completely obedient to God but that is not the same thing as sinlessness.

Exactly!!! I don't think God is looking for people who make no mistakes as much as people whose heart are TOTALLY committed to God. I think that's what the OT refers to as "perfect heart."

Thanks for your comments.

[Gerr]

This discussion has to do with whether believers who are filled with the Holy Spirit MUST commit sin or whether God empowers us to overcome all temptation to sin.

Temptation implies awareness, and therefore a response that involves the will. I believe that believers can be so Spirit-filled that through the Spirit they could resist all temptations that involves the will. But mistakes that bypass the will are due to failures of a fallen body and not moral failure. For example:

"Forgetfulness is sin." 3T 13.

"It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression." CH 38.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Gerry. I am impressed. Did you get this quote from me? Sure seems like it. I could hear myself saying the same thing.

Hmmmmmmmmm

Could be, but I thought it was from Isaiah! :)

However, you will never see or hear me say, "I will sin willfully until I die!"

Yeah. That one IS reserved for me. :)

[Woody]

Quote:

"Forgetfulness is sin." 3T 13.

"It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression." CH 38.

Good Post and quotes Gerry. Like I said ... I will sin till the day I die. Oh. Did I 'forget' that I've said that before?

[John317]

I agree, Gerry. We're talking about known, willfull sins, those which the Holy Spirit convicts us of.

[John317]

Like I said ... I will sin till the day I die.

Sounds like you are planning on it and that you are excusing yourself so you can go on committing sin.

What we need to say is that with Christ's power, we will overcome sin, not keep transgressing God's law.

1 John 3:4-10

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. [5] You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. [6] No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. [7] Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righ teousness is righteous, as he is righ teous. [8] Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. [10] By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Jesus was tempted in all points like we are but was victorious over the all temptation. In Rev 3 it says," to him that overcometh.....even as I overcame". Jesus did not sin therefore He did not have to overcome what He wasn't doing. Therefore we must overcome all temptation and as it was said, that means there must be an awareness or knowledge of that which we are tempted by. To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, it is sin.

How can we be charged with sin if we are not aware that we are sinning? That would be a sin of ignorance and would be covered by Christ's sacrifice. But when God reveals it to us and we know about it, we then will face temptation to commit it or submit to God resist the devil and overcome it.

Good post Christopher

God empowers us to overcome all temptation (to sin).

Is not this what Jesus had and then choose not to give into any temptation, which if having given into the temptation would be sin. book of james

Christopher

[Woody]

Quote:

But when God reveals it to us and we know about it, we then will face temptation to commit it or submit to God resist the devil and overcome it.

Yes. But there's a YES BUT:

The only way we can overcome is to pray to God for strength to overcome. If we do that and the strength does not arrive ... we are not responsible. God picks His battles. And it's up to Him which battles we need to fight.

[John317]

The only way we can overcome is to pray to God for strength to overcome. If we do that and the strength does not arrive ... we are not responsible. God picks His battles. And it's up to Him which battles we need to fight.

Are you serious, Woody? Satan would lovve for people to think this way.

We already have this promise from God:

1 Cor. 10:13

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

If you and I choose not to endure temptation but instead to surrender to it, it is not God's fault. Putting the responsibility for our sins on God is like the children of Israel blaming God for their not being able to enter in to the Promised Land.

Put the blame for your sins where it belongs: on yourself. Until you do, you won't even begin to overcome them.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Actually the only way to overcome is to die and then receive power from God. Dead people cannot choose to sin. Dead unto sin and alive unto God, raised in newness of life. If we are not overcoming sin that God has convicted us of, the fault lies with us. It is a choice; we ask & Jesus replies,"do you believe I can do this?" If we say yes Lord and advance by faith we will get the victory over the temptation. If we choose to sin, we reveal that we don't believe Him.

I believe we too often fight temptation without God or without dying, which is a daily reponse to His marvelous provision and love. I also believe we ask & sometimes beg with the idea that "I hope God helps me, please God, help me just one more time" We can be praying without hope as though God is not REALLY wanting to help us because we should know better.

After all is said & done the resposiblilty of sin lies with us, if God did not supply that which He promised the whole universe would cease to exist because God would found a liar, which is sin.

Quote:

But when God reveals it to us and we know about it, we then will face temptation to commit it or submit to God resist the devil and overcome it.

Yes. But there's a YES BUT:

The only way we can overcome is to pray to God for strength to overcome. If we do that and the strength does not arrive ... we are not responsible. God picks His battles. And it's up to Him which battles we need to fight.

[Woody]

Believe me ... I'm dead. I choose not to sin and therefore I've asked the only person who can give me the power to not sin ... and He has refused.

No way can I be responsible for His refusal. I refuse to be.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Believe me ... I'm dead. I choose not to sin and therefore I've asked the only person who can give me the power to not sin ... and He has refused.

No way can I be responsible for His refusal. I refuse to be.

You must be asking the wrong god.

[John317]

Believe me ... I'm dead. I choose not to sin and therefore I've asked the only person who can give me the power to not sin ... and He has refused.

No way can I be responsible for His refusal. I refuse to be.

It sounds like a good possibility that you are not truly converted and that you do not have the Holy Spirit leading your life.

The Bible teaches that those who are born from above don't continue to practice sin. (Notice it does not say born-again believers don't ever sin.) It means that if you find you cannot stop from sinning, you are trying to do it on the basis of your flesh, not by the Holy Spirit.

Another thing, Woody, is that the Bible teaches that we need to be specific about our sins when we pray to God for power to overcome sin. Name the sin, and repeat the promise of God that He will empower you t resist and overcome sin. Don't merely pray, "God, please help me not to sin." Rather, pray, in the name of Jesus, "Lord, you know my weakness with regard to [and name the sin]. Please give me strength and power from you Holy Spirit to help me do your will in this area of my life. Do whatever is necessary to make me hate that sin."

Be sure to surrender all of your will and your life to Christ, holding NOTHING back. theus Bible teaches that God will not hear a double-minded person.

James 1:6-8

But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. [7] For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; [8] he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Some people tempt themselvdes to sin even after they have prayed for God to help them resist temptation. This is a good example of being "double-minded." If we really want to sin, God will of course allow us to. He won't force our will. It does no good to pray for power to overcome sin even while we are planning on sinning.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Believe me ... I'm dead. I choose not to sin and therefore I've asked the only person who can give me the power to not sin ... and He has refused.

No way can I be responsible for His refusal. I refuse to be.

You must be asking the wrong god.

Which God would that be?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Which God would that be?

I am going to post a vision by E.G. White for you to consider. It may be of help to you. It may be difficult to read and but my hope is that it can help you if you are truly seeking for help.

Quote:

Early Writings : Page 54

End of the 2300 Days

I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." Before the throne I saw the Advent people--the church and the world. I saw two companies, one bowed down before the throne, deeply interested, while the other stood uninterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their prayers and look to Jesus; then He would look to His Father, and appear to be pleading 55 with Him. A light would come from the Father to the Son and from the Son to the praying company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son it waved over the people before the throne. But few would receive this great light. Many came out from under it and immediately resisted it; others were careless and did not cherish the light, and it moved off from them. Some cherished it, and went and bowed down with the little praying company. This company all received the light and rejoiced in it, and their countenances shone with its glory.

I saw the Father rise from the throne, [see page 92.] and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Those who rose up with Jesus would send up their faith to Him in the holiest, and pray, "My Father, give us Thy Spirit." Then Jesus would breathe upon them the Holy Ghost. In that breath was light, power, and much love, joy, and peace. 56

I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children.

This is quite serious and something for all of us to be concerned with. The question that comes to me from this is: Am I living in present truth and following Jesus into the Most Holy Place or am I sitting where He is not and receiving that which will cause my destruction? I can't answer for you, that is only something you can do. If the Jews, in Jesus time, received none of the benefits of His heavenly ministry because they refused to accept Him as High Priest of the new covenant when He went into the Holy Place, then no one can benefit from Jesus' ministry in the Most Holy place if they reject Him as their High Priest in the Most Holy Place.

We are living in the day of atonement and Jesus has given us the Holy Spirit in order to purify our lives and to preach the Gospel. Sins are being blotted out for those who have confessed and forsaken them. Jesus has given us power that we might not be lost and be coworkers with Him. Anyone who can not get victory over revealed sin would do well to look at the laodicean message and own it. I would rethink my whole belief system and theology, because one thing is for sure, God does not lie.

[Woody]

I'm saved Norman. It's not like I'm worrying about what God I am serving. But I do know of a lot of folks who are worried they might not overcome all sin. I for one am not. God will work His will for my life as He sees fit. Not something for me to worry about. Rather I have faith in that.

[John317]

What is presumption? What's the difference between it and genuine faith, & how do we know if we have one or the other?