The Sunday Law

[Pastor_Chick]

Originally Posted By: Pastor_Chick

What is the image of the beast?

"The "image to the beast" represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas." [GC 445]

"But in the very act of enforcing a religious duty by secular power, the churches would themselves form an image to the beast; hence the enforcement of Sundaykeeping in the United States would be an enforcement of the worship of the beast and his image." [GC 449]

"It was apostasy that led the early church to seek the aid of the civil government, and this prepared the way for the development of the papacy--the beast. Said Paul: "There" shall "come a falling away, . . . and that man of sin be revealed." 2 Thessalonians 2:3. So apostasy in the church will prepare the way for the image to the beast." [GC 443-444]

"But what is the "image to the beast"? and how is it to be formed? The image is made by the two-horned beast, and is an image to the first beast. It is also called an image of the beast. Then to learn what the image is like, and how it is to be formed, we must study the characteristics of the beast itself, --the papacy.

When the early church became corrupted by departing from the simplicity of the gospel, and accepting heathen rites and customs, she lost the Spirit and power of God; and in order to control the consciences of the people she sought the support of the secular power. The result was the papacy, a church that controlled the power of the State, and employed it to further her own ends, especially for the punishment of "heresy." In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government that the authority of the State will also be employed by the church to accomplish her own ends." [GC 443]

"The beast 'which had the wound by the sword and did live' is the Papacy. That was the church dominating the civil power, a union of church and state, enforcing its religious dogmas by the civil power, by confiscation, imprisonment, and death. An image to this beast would be another ecclesiastical organization clothed with civil power - another union of church and state - to enforce religion by law." [bible Readings for the Home, 1949, p. 236]

"Q. What is an image to the beast?

Ans.- A union of church and state, by which the church will use the state to accomplish its own objects." [sabbath School Quarterly, First Quarter, Vol. 1 Num. 3, 1896]

Great work, Q; now, let's see if we can use this "inspired formula" to make some sense out of this subject.

Has an image OR the image been formed since the death of Ellen G. White?

In other words, is there a "Protestant Church" that has "imbibed pagan errors" (gone into apostasy), and joined with the federal government to "enforce religion by law?"

[Gordon1]

Christianity is fairly foreign to these countries and it's looked down upon. It will take extra-ordinary events to turn the population of these countries into obedient Sunday keeping people.

Fccool, here's an alternative viewpoint - a Christian primer is NOT required. Sunday worship is the hallmark of Sun worship, of paganism, where many countries already have their spiritual base. It will be most natural for many to adopt a global sun worship day - they will fall like dominoes, if not almost leading the way. Without the Scriptures to warn them otherwise, pagan believers are already captive.

Neither Christianity nor Judaism was ever a prerequisite for pagan Sun (Baal) worship. Sun worship is the natural bent of fallen man.

[Naraiel]

What Pastor Chick has mentioned about the Spirit of the Sabbath has brought to my mind some bible verses, quotes, and thoughts regarding this issue.

If Satan succeeds in deceiving us and making us believe that the Sabbath of the Creator is only about a day, or is only about physical rest, we may already be losing sight of the very essence of the Sabbath, and we may be crucifying the Lord of the Sabbath afresh.

How?

A/ By not entering into His rest, in other words, by not trusting in Him, not allowing Him to be our ONLY Protector , Savior, King, Judge and Provider. We do this by turning to Cesar or the World as our protector, savior or judge in times of need. This applies individually, and collectively, as a church.

The Devil's traps and deceptions are of a spiritual nature, "for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Eph 6:12

A spurious Sabbath is not only related to Sunday, a counterfeit literal day of rest, but it is also related to any attack against the essence or principles represented by the Creation 7th day Sabbath.

Before sin entered into the world, the Creation 7th day Sabbath was originally a memorial of God’s Creation. Can you imagine the relationship that the first couple and their Master shared together there in the Garden of Eden? Can you picture the innocence of that abundant life, free from selfishness, fear, stress, worry, and all the hardships of this present sinful state? And Christ utters these hope-inspiring words to us, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you REST". The Creation 7th day was a reminder of God’s continual presence in man, not only for a day, but during the whole week, the whole time. The Creator’s 7th Day Sabbath also represented contentment and joy (free from regrets or complaints) - for “God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.” Gen 1:31; 2:1

We must not make the mistake of judging the Lord's rest by what men are accustomed to call rest. God is not a man. We should rather learn from God's rest what rest really is. God's rest is not mere physical rest from weariness. This we know from two facts: First, "God is Spirit." John 4:24. Second, "The everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary." Isa. 40: 28. The Lord therefore did not rest because He was tired, and His rest is not physical, but spiritual, since He is Spirit. "They that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth."

God rested, not because He was weary, but because His work was finished. When work is finished, and is well done, nothing but rest and contentment remains. In six days God finished His work, and as He surveyed it, He pronounced it "very good." There was no flaw in it. He had no sad reflexions, no regrets. Every portion of the work, even man, was as perfect as it was possible for it to be, and God took pure delight in contemplating the work from which He was resting, because it was complete and perfect. This is the rest which He offers to us.

After sin entered and separated the human race from God, God prepared a Plan of Redemption through Jesus Christ, our Savior, to restore us once again to the image of God, and to enjoy His rest and peace. For the redeemed, the Creation 7th Day becomes a reminder of Jesus’ continual rest from sin. The rest that Jesus gives us is rest from sin. This rest or finished work is gained by faith. "We which believe do enter into rest." How so? -- Because by faith we have the finished, perfect work of the Lord as our own. "This is the work of God that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent." John 6:29. Believing on Him means receiving Him; and since in Him the works of God are complete, it follows that by believing on Him we find the rest.

It is by the works of God, therefore, that we are saved, and not by our own. “For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.”(Hebrews 4:10) Good works there are in abundance, and they are for us too, but through no work of our own, solely through the perfect work of God in Jesus Christ. If the works were our own, then the rest would be our own; but God gives us His rest, not ours, because only His works can yield perfect rest. "He hath made His wonderful works to be remembered." (Ps. 111:4), or, literally, "He hath made a memorial for His wondrous works." That memorial is the seventh day, the day on which He has rested from all His works. That day He has blessed and sanctified, made holy. Its holiness has never departed from it, for "whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever." No matter what man does, nor how man regards the day, its holiness remains.

It reveals to us the everlasting God, the unwearied, almighty Creator, who has wrought and laid up great goodness for them that trust in Him before the sons of men. Ps. 31:19. It reminds us that we are "complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power." It tells us that, although we have sinned, and brought the curse on God's perfect creation, the cross of Christ, which bears the curse, restores and perpetuates the perfect work of God, so that through it we may stand without fault before the throne of God, just as when man was first made.

The answer becomes clear when Paul explains in Hebrews 4 that to enter into the true “Sabbath” means to cease from our own works. It does not mean one stays at home and does nothing, for the Bible also tells us, “if any would not work, neither should he eat.” (2 Timothy 3:10) This is a quietness of heart, a peace in the soul, and the true Sabbath about which the seventh (literal) day was to instruct us.

This does not, of course, do away with the importance of the literal day! Christ taught that to be angry with your brother made one guilty of murder in the spiritual sense, (Matthew 5:21, 22) but physical murder is still a sin. So it is with every other commandment for, likewise, one may keep the letter of the Sabbath, but still be guilty of violating it if there is no peace, no rest in the protection of Christ and Christ alone.

We recall that the Pharisees were Sabbath-keepers outwardly, but they were not keepers of the true Sabbath, for on the very seventh day they were plotting the death of the Lord of the Sabbath, and finally resorted to Cesar as their king and judge to punish Christ.

Other Adventists have written on this matter of the true, spiritual Sabbath as well:

“I need not undertake to give a definition in detail of what the image of the beast is; we all know well that it is the church power using the government, the civil power, for church purposes . . .Now I want to state a little further upon the PRINCIPLE that no Christian, being a citizen ofthe kingdom of God, can of right start any procedure in connection with civil government. After it is started by the government itself, that is another question...I repeat therefore, that upon the PRINCIPLES which govern kingdoms and governments, the very PRINCIPLE of the law inheaven, or law in earth, a Christian cannot start any procedure in connection with civil government.And of all Christians, SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS CANNOT DO IT. THE VERY KEEPING OF THE SABBATH FORBIDS IT." [General Conference Bulletin, page 28, 1895 – emphases mine] This also appears in the 1896 First Quarter Sabbath School lesson, so it is not an unknown principle by any means.

Sunday ORIGIN: Man/ SPIRIT: Papal/ PROTECTOR: Cesar/Force

7th day ORIGIN: Creator/ SPIRIT: Papal/ PROTECTOR: Cesar/Force

Creation

7th day ORIGIN: Creator/ SPIRIT: Love/ PROTECTOR: Christ

"...The conscience should not be compelled even for the observance of the genuine Sabbath, for God will accept only willing service." SDA Biblical Commentary Vol 7, page 977.

"Love worketh no ill to his neighbor..." Romans 13:10.

“Let us labor therefore to enter into His Rest”

[Pastor_Chick]

I think you would be surprised to know that 76% of United States population classifies themselves as Christian per 2008 census. I think it's a mistake to throw US as a secular humanist state. There are over 300,000 Christian churches in the USA. That's a very commanding number. All of those churches exist due to the free-will donations of the faithful.

[...]

If you consider what happened to black and arab population during the Katrina, you'll see a small glimpse of how quickly things can disintegrate into maintenance of order by force and religious principles.

Cool,

I have to give you credit as a thinker. (Oh, I never did hear from you via email.)

I was just looking at the Gallup Poll for "Importance of Religion" among Americans. You mentioned Katrina, and let me say that no one in the state of Lousiana (importance of religion polled at 78%) called for a Sunday-rest law as the result of such devastation.

Even IF the "miracle" of having a majority of the apostate Christians in the United States (claiming 76% of the population) were to precipitate a national Sunday-closing law "to appease their god," how would THAT fulfill the prophecy of Rev. 13:11-17?

Now, take this notion to another level. I have lived in Africa for almost 3 years. I am observant and current on much of what happens on this continent. You will not see even Sunday-closing laws here, much less any kind of persecution of Sabbath-keepers over a day. People here change churches like Americans change clothes. SDA members do not even keep the Sabbath holy. They cook on Sabbath; they work jobs after church, etc.

Poverty is, as you surely know, a wide-spread problem in the majority of Africa, and Western civilization has compounded the problem by sending the message that money is the answer to the world's problems. From government officials down the spectrum to the peasants in the villages, "money talks." Try enforcing any religious law here. No! That is not going to happen, and 97% are professing Christianity. Everywhere I go, I can shout "Hallelu-YAH!" and there will be a resounding, "AMEN!"

I'll close my comments with a reminder from the Word. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt. 7:13, 14)

Oh, here is a reference on degeneration of Sunday Laws and Sabbath Accommodation on the rise.

http://loudcry.eu/news.html

[hch]

Thank you, Henry, for your kind words and participation. I hope you will put your ideas together into a brief outline that we may consider. I realize that it can be difficult to expound in a brief manner, but I think that is necessitated by the venue in which we now dialogue.

Thank you, Karl, for your good response, and I would be grateful for more specifics about what IS the "image of the beast." What does it consist of in the real world? How will we know "the test" when we see it?

By the way, I am thoroughly interested in this topic, and that is why I am so active here. I do not intend to be the "moderator" or lead, though it might appear that way. Please forgive me.

What I want is "truth as it is in Jesus."

I too am very interested in endtime prophecy. I have written 6 books specifically on Daniel.

Junk has come into the Church since 1844 that slants the prophecies in a way that is not right.

For that reason it is impossible to give a short summary. If I say anything referring to time, the anti date-setters misunderstand. if the final or complete meaning of the prophecy is cited, the historicists oppose the message. And the list goes on.

Let me give you this brief insight to make the point:

When this is understood, the prophecy takes a very different meaning than what tradition suggests.

Daniel 11 starts with three kings in Persia.

they are Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes

and the fourth looses the kingdom to Alexander the Great

and chapter 11 ends at Daniel 12:1

when Michael stands for His people.

That is the 2300-year prophecy spelled out from

457 BC to 1844

Then Revelation 10 says that when the little book is open (Daniel) is to prophesy again

Daniel 11 loops back to 11:6

(the prophecy repeats, but the time [2300-years]do not]

"And in the end of years [the end of the 2300-years 1844] they shall join themselves together [kings of the north and south]; for the king’s daughter [woman in Bible prophecy is a church - papacy] of the south [Egypt had yielded the title to France in 1798 when it was invaded] shall come [Frances' daughter the papacy] to the king of the north [Ottoman Empire yielded title to England 1840] to make an agreement [papacy did not want Italy unified and permanent loss of Papal States 1860's]: but she [papacy] shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand [English ships off shore watching events in Italy but did not interfere], nor his arm: but she [papacy] shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he [France] that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

Then Daniel 11:7 cites specific events all the way to Christ's Advent 12:1. It is all in "Daniel's Apocalyptic Code Revealed" a verse by verse commentary on Daniel (which is out of date considering what I learned today), and "Put-Out The Light" an abridged commentary (100-pages shorter - more up-to-date, but would really be powerful if it had todays findings in it).

But "J'Mask Unveiled" is a short overview of Daniel and Revelation with the most current discoveries. Just updated it this morning after the pieces came together more clearly when I studied your comments.

God is so good.

[hch]

What is the image of the beast?

...

"But what is the "image to the beast"? and how is it to be formed? The image is made by the two-horned beast, and is an image to the first beast. It is also called an image of the beast. Then to learn what the image is like, and how it is to be formed, we must study the characteristics of the beast itself, --the papacy.

...

[John317]

"Through a lack of faith, many who seek to obey the commandments of God have little peace and joy; they do not correctly represent the sanctification that is to come through obedience to the truth. They are not anchored in Christ. Many feel a lack in their experience; they desire something which they do not have; and thus some are led to attend holiness [Pentecostal] meetings, and are charmed with the sentiments of those who break the law of God....

"There is no safety, much less benefit, for our people in attending these popular meetings; let us rather search the scriptures with much carefulness and earnest prayer, that we may understand the ground of our faith. Then we shall not be tempted to mingle with those, who, while making high claims, are in opposition to the law of God." Gospel Workers 227-228.

"Christ has given warning, so that none need accept falsehood for truth. The only channel through which the Spirit opeerates is that of truth." 2 SM 49

[Pastor_Chick]

Sunday worship is the hallmark of Sun worship, of paganism, where many countries already have their spiritual base. It will be most natural for many to adopt a global sun worship day - they will fall like dominoes, if not almost leading the way. Without the Scriptures to warn them otherwise, pagan believers are already captive.

Neither Christianity nor Judaism was ever a prerequisite for pagan Sun (Baal) worship. Sun worship is the natural bent of fallen man.

Gordon,

If you have documentation for any "pagan groups" (other than professed Christianity) in the world that are observing Sun worship by keeping Sunday sacred, please document that for me. I am honestly ignorant on that "fact." Thank you.

[Pastor_Chick]

Without putting it into context, you won't believe it! IT HAS HAPPENED!

The explanation just won't work on this venue.

So, it sounds like you are saying there is a "secret great test" for the people of God that will "decide their eternal destiny." It is also quite mysterious in nature and not fitting to save any of us on this forum from eternal damnation.

It is certainly true that I will not believe it just because you said it, and that, without any reasoning from the Scriptures.

If I have missed something, please correct me.

[Pastor_Chick]

I too am very interested in endtime prophecy. I have written 6 books specifically on Daniel.

[...]

But "J'Mask Unveiled" is a short overview of Daniel and Revelation with the most current discoveries. Just updated it this morning after the pieces came together more clearly when I studied your comments.

God is so good.

Henry,

Thank you for giving some "introduction" to your expositions. Now, are you saying you want to sell us some of your books?

Thankfully, you are humble enough to embrace new light as it comes to you. And, yes, YAHWEH is "good" (and as many like to say here, "all the time").

[Pastor_Chick]

Has an image OR the image been formed since the death of Ellen G. White?

In other words, is there a "Protestant Church" that has "imbibed pagan errors" (gone into apostasy), and joined with the federal government to "enforce religion by law?"

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

Without putting it into context, you won't believe it! IT HAS HAPPENED!

The explanation just won't work on this venue.

So, it sounds like you are saying there is a "secret great test" for the people of God that will "decide their eternal destiny." It is also quite mysterious in nature and not fitting to save any of us on this forum from eternal damnation.

It is certainly true that I will not believe it just because you said it, and that, without any reasoning from the Scriptures.

If I have missed something, please correct me.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

I too am very interested in endtime prophecy. I have written 6 books specifically on Daniel.

[...]

But "J'Mask Unveiled" is a short overview of Daniel and Revelation with the most current discoveries. Just updated it this morning after the pieces came together more clearly when I studied your comments.

God is so good.

Henry,

Thank you for giving some "introduction" to your expositions. Now, are you saying you want to sell us some of your books?

Thankfully, you are humble enough to embrace new light as it comes to you. And, yes, YAHWEH is "good" (and as many like to say here, "all the time").

[hch]

...

Is it possible that there is "a sister to fallen Babylon?"

[Pastor_Chick]

I am saying that from a study of the word of God and the Spirit of prophecy, I can prove that it has happened.

But I know the brethren. Should I try to lay the foundation to present the proof, they will not hear.

[...]

So when I show how God's timeline fits in the endtime, it is immediately rejected by those crying: you cannot follow prophetic time after 1844. Or another group screams: he's time setting. Or another: this does not square with what I have been taught - it sends up a red flag.

[...]

Truth will prevail, but not all of the 10 Virgins will find it in time.

Originally Posted By: EGW

In this our day, as in Christ's day, there will be a misreading and misinterpreting of the Scriptures. If the Jews had studied the Scriptures with earnest, prayerful, humble hearts, their searching would have been rewarded with a true knowledge of the time, and not only the time, but also the manner of Christ's first appearing. They would not have ascribed the glories of the second appearing of Christ to His first advent. They had the testimony of Daniel; they had the testimony of Isaiah and other prophets; they had the teaching of Moses; and here was Christ Himself in their midst, and still they were searching the Scriptures for evidence in regard to His coming. They were doing to Christ, at the same time, the very things that it had been prophesied they would do. They were so blinded that they knew not the time of His visitation, or what they were doing. Thus they were fulfilling the Scripture. {UL 368.3}

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Pastor_Chick

In other words, is there a "Protestant Church" that has "imbibed pagan errors" (gone into apostasy), and joined with the federal government to "enforce religion by law?"

snipped

2) What Protestant Church would be remaining in our day that had not ALREADY "imbibed pagan errors" (gone into apostasy) and joined with the state at some level?

4) Since the Roman Catholic Church and all the harlot daughters have already "fallen," what Protestant Church is remaining to fall "from her high estate?"

Are we beginning to see the light? The Protestant Church that forms "the image of the beast" in modern times and precipitates the loud cry of the mighty angel of Rev. 18 (the fourth angel) cannot be "the mother of harlots" OR "the harlot daughters." Their apostasy has already been revealed in the Rev. 14 announcement to "come out" (the call of the second angel which is ongoing).

Is it possible that there is "a sister to fallen Babylon?"

snipped

My dear "Pastor_Chick", i certainly do hope you are not among those who proclaim the SDA church the "sister to fallen Babylon". That does seem to be a popular cry among those dissatisfied with our admittedly Laodicean condition, but, I believe, quite out of agreement with the EGW quotes intent.

Do I err and you are nstead referring to another protestant denomination? :)

[Pastor_Chick]

My dear "Pastor_Chick", i certainly do hope you are not among those who proclaim the SDA church the "sister to fallen Babylon". That does seem to be a popular cry among those dissatisfied with our admittedly Laodicean condition, but, I believe, quite out of agreement with the EGW quotes intent.

Do I err and you are nstead referring to another protestant denomination?

[hch]

...

Originally Posted By: EGW

In this our day, as in Christ's day, there will be a misreading and misinterpreting of the Scriptures. If the Jews had studied the Scriptures with earnest, prayerful, humble hearts, their searching would have been rewarded with a true knowledge of the time, and not only the time, but also the manner of Christ's first appearing. They would not have ascribed the glories of the second appearing of Christ to His first advent. They had the testimony of Daniel; they had the testimony of Isaiah and other prophets; they had the teaching of Moses; and here was Christ Himself in their midst, and still they were searching the Scriptures for evidence in regard to His coming. They were doing to Christ, at the same time, the very things that it had been prophesied they would do. They were so blinded that they knew not the time of His visitation, or what they were doing. Thus they were fulfilling the Scripture. {UL 368.3}

Henry,

I really appreciate the EGW quote from Upward Look.

So, "the brethren" are not being your brethren? Is that it? They think you are a "false prophet?"

[hch]

In an earlier post, I stated that the 490-years allotted to the Jews had ended, the 1260-years allotted to the Roman church has ended, and the time allotted to Apostate Protestants ended on 9/20/01. Consider the following:

There are many true Christians not of our faith, with whom we come in contact, who live according to the best light that they have, and they are in greater favor with God than are those who have greater light but who have not improved it by showing corresponding works. {CSW 85.1}

[doug yowell]

In an earlier post, I stated that the 490-years allotted to the Jews had ended, the 1260-years allotted to the Roman church has ended, and the time allotted to Apostate Protestants ended on 9/20/01.

Don't you mean 9/11/01?

[Naraiel]

When I saw your comment, I made a word search in Ellen White's writtings for "sister of Babylon" and I found this interesting quote from Ellen White.

'We [Ellen White is refering to the SDA Church] must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors’ wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?" Manuscript Releases Volume Twenty-one [Nos. 1501-1598], Page 380

If I am an honest reader, I must consider at least that when Ellen White said this[in her days] she was predicting a posibility for the SDA church to become a sister of Babylon unless the church reformed its practices and repented from those sins, as a body. Sins that she was already seeing in her days. It was simply a prediction based on the law of cause and effect.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

Gal 6:7-8

Like Ellen White said, “Regarding the testimonies, nothing is ignored; nothing is cast aside; but time and place must be considered." It is very true that the SDA Church was not Babylon in 1893, nor a sister of Babylon in Ellen White's day, but we need to consider the possibility that if the Church didn't clean up the camp of Israel like Ellen White advised, the dangers of becoming a sister of Babylon would only increase, and would become a natural result for neglecting those sins, and warnings.

I think we can compare this with "house cleaning". If we don't clean our rooms, offices, and houses, the state of those rooms will become dirtier and less sanitary as more time passes, unless dirt is removed.

Now, the questions are:

1) Have we seen the camp of Israel repented or repenting from those impurities since Ellen White’s Warning in 1890-3?

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.", Jesus said.

2) Are the SDA Church leaders resorting to the State to defend its institutions, reputation, and enforce their authority over others people's conciences with the sword of Cesar?

"Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured." The Great Controversy, Page 581

It is very posible that the SDA Church may have become the persecutor instead of the persecuted, like happened with the Jewish Church in the days of Jesus IF they don't "finish the transgression, and make an end of sins, and make reconciliation for iniquity." Daniel 9:24b

If we are careful and honest readers who love holiness, and truth that's the conclusion we come to, dear Teresa.

[Naraiel]

Hi, I wanted to clarify that with this Trademark Law the SDA Church is using for religious purposes, this persecution is being accomplished.

Maybe this will reply to Pastor's Chick question. From the doctrinal changes I have seen occur since 1930, I would say the SDA Church would fit also as a Protestant Church that has imbibed pagan errors" (gone into apostasy), and joined with the federal government to enforce their religious authority by law.

[John317]

(quoting): 'We [Ellen White is refering to the SDA Church] must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors’ wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?" Manuscript Releases Volume Twenty-one [Nos. 1501-1598], Page 380

Being a "sister to fallen Babylon" isn't the same as being Babylon, otherwise she would have said we were in danger of becoming Babylon. Ellen White warns over and over about the false teaching that the SDA church is Babylon, and she says that the SDA church will never be Babylon. That doesn't mean, of course, that as a church we won't have great faults and need to repent and make some changes to be in line with God's commandments; but it does mean that people will be wrong who teach that the SDA church is Babylon and that God wants SDAs to leave the church. There are quite a few at the present time who are teaching this very message. But it's a false message.

Having said that, I do completely agree with what Ellen White stated on MR 21, page 380. I believe the conditions she warned us of are even worse than they were when she wrote it [1886]. However, Ellen White saw the time coming when it would appear that the church seemed about ready to fall but it won't fall. I think it's important for us to carefully consider everything she says on these topics, otherwise we're likely to misunderstand her.

[John317]

... From the doctrinal changes I have seen occur since 1930, I would say the SDA Church would fit also as a Protestant Church that has imbibed pagan errors" (gone into apostasy),...

Do you have any specific doctrinal changes in mind?

[Light Fox]

she says that the SDA church will never be Babylon.

Can you provide that quote, please?