The Sunday Law

[teresaq]

When I saw your comment, I made a word search in Ellen White's writtings for "sister of Babylon" and I found this interesting quote from Ellen White.

'We [Ellen White is refering to the SDA Church] must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors’ wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?" Manuscript Releases Volume Twenty-one [Nos. 1501-1598], Page 380

snipped

2) Are the SDA Church leaders resorting to the State to defend its institutions, reputation, and enforce their authority over others people's conciences with the sword of Cesar?

"Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured." The Great Controversy, Page 581

It is very posible that the SDA Church may have become the persecutor instead of the persecuted, like happened with the Jewish Church in the days of Jesus IF they don't "finish the transgression, and make an end of sins, and make reconciliation for iniquity." Daniel 9:24b

If we are careful and honest readers who love holiness, and truth that's the conclusion we come to, dear Teresa.

[teresaq]

I see there are not a few of "you" here. So how is Ron Beaulieu, Vance Ferrel, and those others doing nowadays?

[John317]

Babylon and the Remnant Church

The Contrast as Shown

In the Writings of Ellen G. White

The Church the Light of

the World

Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard. The world is a workshop in which, through the co-operation of human and divine agencies, Jesus is making experiments by His grace and divine mercy upon human hearts. {1NL 49.1}

Angels are amazed as they behold the transformation of character brought about in those who yield themselves to God, and they express their joy in songs of rapturous praise to God and to the Lamb. They see those who are by nature the children of wrath, converted, and becoming laborers together with Christ in drawing souls to God. They see those who were in darkness becoming lights to shine amid the moral night of this wicked and perverse generation. They see them becoming prepared by a Christlike experience to suffer with their Lord, and afterward to be partakers with Him in His glory in heaven above. {1NL 49.2}

God has a church on earth who are lifting up the downtrodden law, and presenting to the world the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. The church is the depositary of the wealth of the riches of the grace of Christ, and through the church eventually will be made manifest the final and full display of the love of God to the world that is to be lightened with its glory. The prayer of Christ that His church may be one as He was one with His Father, will finally be answered. The rich dowry of the Holy Spirit will be given, and through its constant supply to the people of God, they will become witnesses in the world of the power of God unto salvation. {1NL 49.3}

A Work of Tearing Down

There is but one church in the world who are at the present time standing in the breach, and making up the hedge, building up the old waste places; and for any man to call the attention of the world and other churches to this church, denouncing her as Babylon, is to do a work in harmony with him who is the accuser of the brethren. Is it possible that men will arise from among us, who speak perverse things, and give voice to the very sentiments that Satan would have disseminated in the world in regard to those who keep the commandments of God, and have the faith of Jesus? Is there not work enough to satisfy your zeal in presenting the truth to those who are in the darkness of error? {1NL 49.4}

As those who have been made stewards of means and ability, you have been misapplying your Lord's goods in disseminating error. The whole world is filled with hatred of those who proclaim the binding claims of the law of God, and the church who are loyal to Jehovah must engage in no ordinary conflict. "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

50

Those who have any realization of what this warfare means, will not turn their weapons against the church militant, but with all their powers will wrestle with the people of God against the confederacy of evil. {1NL 49.5}

Those who start up to proclaim a message on their own individual responsibility, who, while claiming to be taught and led of God, still make it their special work to tear down that which God has been for years building up, are not doing the will of God. Be it known that these men are on the side of the great deceiver. Believe them not. They are allying themselves with the enemies of God and the truth. They will deride the order of the ministry as a system of priestcraft. From such turn away, have no fellowship with their message, however much they may quote the Testimonies and seek to intrench themselves behind them. Receive them not; for God has not given them this work to do. The result of such work will be unbelief in the Testimonies, and as far as possible, they will make of none effect the work that I have for years been doing. {1NL 50.1}

Almost my whole lifetime has been devoted to this work, but my burden has often been made heavier by the arising of men who went forth to proclaim a message that God had not given them. This class of evil workers have selected portions of the Testimonies and have placed them in the framework of error, in order by this setting to give influence to their false testimonies. When it is made manifest that their message is error, then the Testimonies brought into the companionship of error, share the same condemnation; and people of the world, who do not know that the Testimonies quoted are extracts from private letters used without my consent, present these matters as evidence that my work is not of God, or of truth, but falsehood. Those who thus bring the work of God into disrepute will have to answer before God for the work they are doing. {1NL 50.2}

A Divinely Appointed Ministry

God has a church, and she has a divinely appointed ministry. "And He gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints; for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ."--TM 49-52. {1NL 50.3}

The Time of Celestial Glory

Satan is a diligent Bible student. He knows that his time is short, and he seeks at every point to counterwork the work of the Lord upon this earth. It is impossible to give any idea of the experience of the people of God who shall be alive upon the earth when celestial glory and a repetition of the persecutions of the past are blended. They will walk in the light proceeding from the throne of God. By means of the angels, there will be constant communication between heaven and earth. And Satan, surrounded by evil angels, and claiming to be God, will work miracles of all kinds, to deceive, if possible, the very elect. {1NL 50.4}

Miracles Not the Sign

God's people will not find their safety in working miracles; for Satan will counterfeit the miracles that will be wrought. God's tried and tested

51

people will find their power in the sign spoken of in Exodus 31:12-18. They are to take their stand on the living word, "It is written." This is the only foundation upon which they can stand securely. Those who have broken their covenant with God will in that day be without God and without hope.--9T 16. {1NL 50.5}

Beware of False Teachers

Those who have proclaimed the Seventh-day Adventist Church as Babylon, have made use of the Testimonies in giving their position a seeming support; but why is it that they did not present that which for years has been the burden of my message--the unity of the church? Why did they not quote the words of the angel, "Press together, press together, press together"? Why did they not repeat the admonition and state the principle, that "in union there is strength, in division there is weakness"? {1NL 51.1}

It is such messages as these men have borne, that divide the church, and put us to shame before the enemies of truth, and in such messages is plainly revealed the specious working of the great deceiver, who would hinder the church from attaining unto perfection in unity. These teachers follow the sparks of their own kindling, move according to their own independent judgment, and cumber the truth with false notions and theories. They refuse the counsel of their brethren, and press on in their own way, until they become just what Satan would desire to have them--unbalanced in mind.--TM 56. {1NL 51.2}

Walk in Unity

I urge those who claim to believe the truth, to walk in unity with their brethren. Do not seek to give to the world occasion to say that we are extremists, that we are disunited, that one teaches one thing, and one another. Avoid dissension. Let every one be on guard, and be careful to be found standing in the gap to make up the breach, in place of standing at the wall seeking to make a breach. {1NL 51.3}

Let all be careful not to make an outcry against the only people who are fulfilling the description given of the remnant people, who keep the commandments of God, and have faith in Jesus, who are exalting the standard of righteousness in these last days.--TM 57, 58. {1NL 51.4}

Chosen Watchmen

In a special sense Seventh-day Adventists have been set in the world as watchmen and light bearers. To them has been entrusted the last warning for a perishing world. On them is shining wonderful light from the Word of God. They have been given a work of the most solemn import--the proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages. There is no other work of so great importance. They are to allow nothing else to absorb their attention. {1NL 51.5}

The most solemn truths ever entrusted to mortals have been given us to proclaim to the world. The proclamation of these truths is to be our work. The world is to be warned, and God's people are to be true to the trust committed to them.--9T 19.

-

{1NL 51.6}

No New Organization

The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work. Every truth that He has given for these last days is to be proclaimed to the world. Every pillar that He has established is to be strengthened. We cannot now step off the foundation that God has established. We cannot now enter into any new organization; for this would mean apostasy from the truth.--MS. 129, 1905.

52

{1NL 51.7}

What Constitutes

Babylon

Poisonous Doctrines

It is our individual duty to walk humbly with God. We are not to seek any strange, new message. We are not to think that the chosen ones of God who are trying to walk in the light, compose Babylon. {1NL 52.1}

The fallen denominational churches are Babylon. Babylon has been fostering poisonous doctrines, the wine of error. This wine of error is made up of false doctrines, such as the natural immortality of the soul, the eternal torment of the wicked, the denial of the pre-existence of Christ prior to His birth in Bethlehem, and advocating and exalting the first day of the week above God's holy and sanctified day.--TM 61. {1NL 52.2}

Following Rome

Many of the Protestant churches are following Rome's example of iniquitous connection with "the kings of the earth"--the state churches, by their relation to secular governments; and other denominations, by seeking the favor of the world. And the term "Babylon"--confusion--may be appropriately applied to these bodies, all professing to derive their doctrines from the Bible, yet divided into almost innumerable sects, with widely conflicting creeds and theories.--GC 383. {1NL 52.3}

Call to Come Out

God's word to His people is: "Come out from among them, and be ye separate,... and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters." 2 Cor. 6:17, 18.... God's people are to be distinguished as a people who serve Him fully, wholeheartedly, taking no honor to themselves, and remembering that by a most solemn covenant they have bound themselves to serve the Lord, and Him only.--9T 17. {1NL 52.4}

The Sins of Babylon

The great sin charged against Babylon is, that she "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." This cup of intoxication which she presents to the world, represents the false doctrines that she has accepted as the result of her unlawful connection with the great ones of the earth. Friendship with the world corrupts her faith, and in her turn she exerts a corrupting influence upon the world by teaching doctrines which are opposed to the plainest statements of Holy Writ.--GC. 388. {1NL 52.5}

The Doctrine of Eternal

Torment

The theory of eternal torment is one of the false doctrines that constitute the wine of the abominations of Babylon, of which she makes all nations drink. That ministers of Christ should have accepted this heresy and proclaimed it from the sacred desk, is indeed a mystery. They received it from Rome, as they received the false sabbath. True, it has been taught by great and good men; but the light on this subject had not come to them as it has come to us.--GC 536. {1NL 52.6}

Alliance with the World

Babylon is also charged with the sin of unlawful connection with "the kings of the earth." It was by departure from the Lord, and alliance with the heathen, that the Jewish church became a harlot; and Rome, corrupting herself in like manner by seeking the support of worldly powers, receives a like condemnation.--GC 382. {1NL 52.7}

[John317]

Ellen White courageously pointed out to fewer than 3,000 fellow church members in 1856 that the Laodicean message (Rev. 3) applies to Seventh-day Adventists. That was very sobering to a people who saw themselves virtually alone in the world as those who “keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus” (Rev. 14:12).

At the same time, she said very clearly that “God has invested His church with special authority and power which no one can be justified in disregarding and despising; for in so doing he despises the voice of God.” Testimonies, vol. 3, p. 417 (1875).

Though she used strong language to describe the spiritual lethargy of the church, she was equally emphatic regarding its high destiny: “Has God no living church? He has a church, but it is the church militant, not the church triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. . . . Let all be careful not to make an outcry against the only people who are fulfilling the description given of the remnant people who keep the commandments of God, and have faith in Jesus. . . . God has a distinct people, a church on earth, second to none, but superior to all in their facilities to teach the truth, to vindicate the law of God.” Testimonies to Ministers, pp. 45, 58.

In the early 1900s, when certain forces within the church were attempting to deflect the church’s message and mission, she steadied those who “listened” with courage and optimism: “We cannot now step off the foundation that God has established. We cannot now enter into any new organization, for this would mean apostasy from the truth.”Manuscript 129, 1905, cited in Selected Messages, book 2, p. 390.

With a further look into the future, she wrote in 1908: “I am instructed to say to Seventh-day Adventists the world over, God has called us as a people to be a peculiar treasure unto Himself. He has appointed that His church on earth shall stand perfectly united in the Spirit and counsel of the Lord of hosts to the end of time.” Selected Messages, book 2, p. 397

"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must ake place. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ.

"The remnant that purify their souls by obeying the truth gather strength from the trying process, exhibiting the beauty of holiness amdi the surrounding apostasy." 2SM 380

"Satan in cooperation with his angels and with evil men, will put forth every effort to gain the victory, and will appear to succeed. But from this conflict, truth and righteousness will come forth triumphant in victory. Those who have believed a lie will be defeated, for the days of apostasy will be ended." 3 SM 393 (1891)

"The work will surely go forward, whether we advance with it or not. It will be victorious, but the question is, shall we be victorious with it?" 5 T 571

"There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work, God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port... Brethren, have we not seen crisis afer crisis come upon the work, and has not the Lord carried us through, and wrought for the glory of His name? Can you not believe in Him? Can you not commit the cause to Him? You cannot with your finite minds understand the working of all the providences of God. Let God take care of His own work." 2 SM 390, 391 [1892]

[Light Fox]

Thanks for the lengthy replies, John.

I'm familiar with the array of quotes from Mrs. White stating that the church is not Babylon, that God has a church, that it's error to arise and call the church keeping the commandments of God (as they were) Babylon, etc, etc... what I'm not seeing (and please point it out if I missed it) is where she said, as I originally was asking about, "the SDA church will never become Babylon."

"Is not" and "Never will be" are very different things. I've heard the "Can never fall" claim before, and while I've never seen any quotes from Mrs. White to back it up, I've definitely heard the argument from other groups who can provide quotes to back it up. For example:

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)

I'm certain we're all familiar with who uses that verse to show that they will always be the church. And then before them, there was this:

"Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD." (Jeremiah 31:37)

It seems that if we are going to make the claim that God is a respecter of one people over another, and will never allow them to fall regardless of what they do, then we need to get in the back of the line.

In either event, the issue isn't just Laodicea... well, that obviously is an issue, and one I've been disturbed to see some Adventists almost be proud of claiming... but not the issue of falling or being Babylon fallen. No, just being lukewarm and backsliding isn't when God calls people out, or obviously there'd be a serious issue with reconciling all these quotes from Mrs. White you provided.

What I think was being got at earlier, however, was something else. If, in that condition, the church joins to the state and starts persecuting... then what? God never called anyone out of a body for error. Not Israel, not the Apostolic church. He sent rebukes and warnings, certainly.

But every time that group joined to the state in one form or another, exactly that happened. Actually, here's what the Sabbath School quarterly I was quoting from earlier says about it:

"It has ever been true that a backslidden body, one that has turned from God's word to men, from God's power to the state, was never reformed in itself. Invariably God's message has called out those from the fallen church who would do His will and preach His gospel. Israel went down to Egypt for help, and their captivity and loss of power followed. Out of the captives God gathered a faithful band to do His work. The Jewish church failed, and God called out the apostolic church to do His bidding. The Roman Church failed, and out of it God called the churches of the Reformation. Some of these churches failed to advance, and God called out others to bear His gospel to the world such as the Baptist, Methodist, Congregationalist, Disciple, Adventists. His last 'called-out' people will know no standard but His word, no power but His Spirit." [First Quarter Sabbath School, 1896]

Here's another one from the same lesson:

"When the early church departed from God and imbibed pagan errors, she became Babylon. When she united with the state, she fell, and, as an organization, was the body of Christ no longer. While the Reformation churches held fast to the word, Christ was with them. Then they crystallized their various errors into creeds and endeavored thus to confine God's word, they made themselves daughters of Babylon. When some of them united with the state, they fell, and God had to use other people, called out of Babylon to carry forward His work. Now among these very churches which came out of the second Babylon, confusion reigns; and now great Babylon, including later daughters, is in adulterous union with the kings of earth , and is endeavoring to make that union stronger. God calls no church Babylon which holds to His word, and follows the light that shines from it, even though there are in its membership many who do not know Christ. When the controlling influence of a church is downward, it erects some other standard besides God's word." [ibid.]

Here is the issue with using the quotes from Mrs. White you provided (and a host of others you didn't) in this context. Yes, there were Laodicean members in Mrs. White's day - no one disputes that. No, having Laodicean members does not mean the faithful should come out. No one disputes that. Calling people out for that would be as wrong as calling people out of Israel in the days of King Saul.

However, when the church in that laodicean state goes to the civil power and "forms an image" by seeking it's aid to sustain itself, we're told that invariably that is a "Come out of her" message. Had that happened in Mrs. White's day? No - absolutely not.

Did she say it never would? No, she didn't. And when you get right down to it, she didn't even come nearly as close to saying it as the quotes the Jews and Catholics can call upon to make the exact same claim SDAs are making today - "We can never fall, God gives us His supreme regard, the glory will never depart, God will fix everything at the end, just stay with the ship, stay with the ship."

So what it comes down to is this:

Can the Adventist church ever fall?

- if No: Then is God a respecter of persons? What makes us more special than every other church? Are we that blind to principle and history as to think that God will give us a free pass for the same errors that brought others down?

- if Yes: Then how do churches fall?

For the last question, I think we've gotten more than enough quotes so far to establish that one - how a church falls and how they form an image to the beast seem to be one and exactly the same. Seeking the aid of the civil power and persecuting.

That leaves but one question:

Is the Adventist church doing this?

[Light Fox]

Oh, sorry, I missed this one:

Quote:

"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ.

"The remnant that purify their souls by obeying the truth gather strength from the trying process, exhibiting the beauty of holiness amid the surrounding apostasy." 2SM 380

You may want to check the context of that one. She's not talking about appearing to fall through apostasy or church-state unions or even to sin. She's talking about appearing to fall under the weight of persecution during the closing moments of history.

Of course, that's always been the case. The chaff and the wheat lesson was given by Christ, not Mrs. White - so again, the Catholics are right there to say "See? Chaff and the wheat til the end." The Protestants are there to say "See? Chaff and the wheat til the end." Either it's obvious that this doesn't mean churches can't fall, or it's obvious we all need to go back to being Catholics. I don't think that should be a hard one to resolve. :)

[John317]

When I said that Ellen White says that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is not Babylon and that it won't ever become Babylon, I wasn't quoting her. I'm referring to the significance of what she taught about Babylon and the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Consider, for instance, the following passsages that deal with the future of the church:

"The work will surely go forward, whether we advance with it or not. It will be victorious, but the question is, shall we be victorious with it?" 5 T 571

"There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work, God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port... Brethren, have we not seen crisis afer crisis come upon the work, and has not the Lord carried us through, and wrought for the glory of His name? Can you not believe in Him? Can you not commit the cause to Him? You cannot with your finite minds understand the working of all the providences of God. Let God take care of His own work." 2 SM 390, 391 [1892]

It's important to note that Ellen White wrote these words even though she was fully aware of the conditionality of prophecy.

She said, "When anyone is drawing apart from the organized body of God's commandment-keeping people, when he begins to weigh the church in his human scales and begins to pronounce judgment against them, then you may know that God is not leading him; He is on the wrong track." 3 SM 17, 18.

I have never seen anything in Ellen White's writings that indicate the time will come when that statement will not be true.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

In an earlier post, I stated that the 490-years allotted to the Jews had ended, the 1260-years allotted to the Roman church has ended, and the time allotted to Apostate Protestants ended on 9/20/01.

Don't you mean 9/11/01?

Hey Doug,

No.

On 9/11/01 the endtime counterfeit prince of the covenant failed.

9/17/01 to 9/23/01, he confirmed the covenant with many for one week

But in the midst of the week on 9/20/01, he declared that the Sacrifice of Christ was in vain. He declared that America would "slay the righteous with the wicked" thus by “the overspreading of abominations,” i.e., the prevalence of these detestable things, “he shall make it desolate" and he did. America, the leading advocate of religious freedoms in the world was "corrupted by departing from the simplicity of the gospel, and accepting heathen rites and customs" on that very day specified in prophecy.

But without the foundational facts to put all this in focus, this won't fit into the pigeonhole. There is so much that we could know if we did not allow some of the trash that has come into the church since 1844 to cast a shadow across the light of prophecy.

[doug yowell]

I take it that you would disagree with those who assert that prophesy indicates that the latter rain began to fall on 9/11/01?

[hch]

Babylon and the Remnant Church

The SDA Church is Laodicea: HOT COLD and LUKEWARM

The wheat and tares are together in the church.

They grow together until the harvest.

We are not to disturb the tares lest we injur the wheat

those looking at the tares will see Babylon

Those looking at the wheat will see the Church triumphant

Those looking at Jesus will be victorious.

[hch]

I take it that you would disagree with those who assert that prophesy indicates that the latter rain began to fall on 9/11/01?

I was not aware that people were teaching that.

These videos stand alone, but they are in a specific order

They are very short and to the point

to paint the bigger picture.

I made them because some people do better with a visual

The are not complete, but put our present place in history on God's timeline

let me know what you think

http://www.youtube.com/user/hcarrollhills?feature=mhum#p/u/0/l0FI-qkWmTg

http://www.youtube.com/user/hcarrollhills?feature=mhum#p/u/1/u-5Pj2UTzCA

http://www.youtube.com/user/hcarrollhills?feature=mhum#p/u/2/CQlwd4hnJgg

http://www.youtube.com/user/hcarrollhills?feature=mhum#p/u/3/WsxUhXA6Ex4

http://www.youtube.com/user/hcarrollhills?feature=mhum#p/u/4/Gys8YikPVfk

[Light Fox]

John,

Thanks for the reply. Here is the problem I am having with that viewpoint:

It is the exact same argument that has been used every time a church has fallen and the faithful called out. Now, as Adventists we look back at those transfers and in hindsight say "Yes, how could they not have seen!" What is the difference today?

Take the Jewish church. An entire Testament full of prophets as opposed to our single one... How many of them spoke of the fall of Judaism? Your view seems to be "Ellen White didn't say we would fall." The Jewish church didn't just have an absence of statements that they would fall - they had many, many statements saying they would not. They even had prophets laying out long-term end time events for what would happen "When they returned to the LORD." If you want to talk about it not being spelled out, that's a good place to start.

Then let us go to the Catholic church. This one, I imagine, there is slightly better grounds for, since we can look back at Daniel and identify the Papacy as antichrist. Nonetheless, nowhere in the New Testament do you find any mention of a coming out from the church that was then being established.

And in neither case, nor in Mrs. White's, am I surprised. Few if any prophets have ever been permitted to see the fall of their own people. If they have, they haven't dared to mention it in sacred writings, for the obvious reaction it would cause. If people were seeking to cause confusion when there was no grounds for a coming out, imagine if actual statements indicating the need for one had been circulated.

Yet that has never meant the church (any church) was immunized from eternal law.

Every church that has ever been established has been established on promises as to what God would do for them. And they have fallen, time and again, by diverting from the faith and joining to the state.

Basically, it comes down to saying that we have less strongly worded promises and less direct statements regarding not falling than any movement that has ever come before us and fallen. Regardless, we're correct to make the claim to invulnerability to Divine rejection, and they were all obviously in error for essentially the same thing. What arrogance is this?

And it goes even further than that. Mrs. White not only gave less strongly worded "shall not fall" indications than any prior prophet, but she actually got closer to saying they would fall than any other prophet. She spoke of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon. She spoke of a time, in the past, where "we had hoped there would not be the need for another coming out." She spoke about the church being weighed in the balances, and the danger of being found wanting. She warned about the Laodicean condition, the very description of which contains a warning about being "spewed out" - no, not as individuals. Revelation was written to a collective church.

Yes, the work will go forward... But will the SDA church be a part of it? Remember the parable of the vineyard.

Adventists of all people have absolutely no excuse for the idea that they alone are the favored people of all ages, unable to fall. Being familiar with the errors of past ages, teaching about them, writing about them, and then doing the same thing with even less justification - and retaining the favor of Heaven - is absurd.

What is the difference between what you say now and what any given Jew said to Paul? Or what any given Catholic said to any given Reformer, back before prophecy became any real issue among Protestants? The argument was always made, "The church will never fall, stay with the ship."

Why were they wrong but you are right? Their prophets didn't say they would fall, either. Their prophets rebuked people for separating from the organized body, too. They had promises (more of them, and more strongly worded) about what would happen for them in the end times, too.

Let me put it this way:

Quote:

There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work, God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port... Brethren, have we not seen crisis afer crisis come upon the work, and has not the Lord carried us through, and wrought for the glory of His name? Can you not believe in Him? Can you not commit the cause to Him? You cannot with your finite minds understand the working of all the providences of God. Let God take care of His own work." 2 SM 390, 391 [1892]

If this means in all circumstances, no matter what happens, no matter what the church does or says or supports or fulfills it will be retained as the favored people... is this applicable to the Jewish or the Catholic Church? If not, why? Does God love Adventists more? Are we "more" His people than they were? See Romans 11 if you are tempted to consider "yes" for even a moment.

Why, then, are we not Jews expecting God to bring in a better High Priest after Caiaphas? Why are we not Catholics, expecting God to right the wrongs in the Papacy the way so many Catholics did for so very, very many years?

As Adventists, we need a "Thus saith the Lord" on these matters. Here are the ones I find:

"For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:11)

"For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." (Mal. 3:6)

"And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Romans 2:3)

"And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it]; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." (Jeremiah 18:9-10)

"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]." (Hebrews 4:1-2)

There is a time for every church when humans weigh it in their own human scales and find it wanting, being unled of God. There is a time for every church that has ever been where God weighed it in His own Divine scales and found it wanting.

How do you know the difference? There has never been a voice from on high - no glowing light attended Luther, no publicly visible angel from heaven to validate Mrs. White. So where is the difference?

[John317]

John,

Thanks for the reply. Here is the problem I am having with that viewpoint:

It is the exact same argument that has been used every time a church has fallen and the faithful called out. Now, as Adventists we look back at those transfers and in hindsight say "Yes, how could they not have seen!" What is the difference today?

The difference is that God assigned ceertain work to the churches of the past which they refused to do, and the SDA church has not rejected the assignment that God has given to the church to do. although there's no doubt that the church has indeed failed to accept the 1888 Message.

Originally Posted By: Qinael

Take the Jewish church. An entire Testament full of prophets as opposed to our single one... How many of them spoke of the fall of Judaism? Your view seems to be "Ellen White didn't say we would fall."

There's Deut. 28 and Daniel 9: 24-27. These prophecies show that if Israel rejected God's plan for them and if they rejected the Messiah, they would cease to be God's special people.

My view is that when we study everything Ellen White has to say about this topic, we will see that she is not giving us any reason to believe that the SDA church will fall and that God will have a message for SDAs that they should leave the SDA church and form a different organization for the purpose of proclaiming a different message than the one He gave the SDA church.

Originally Posted By: Qinael

...Then let us go to the Catholic church. This one, I imagine, there is slightly better grounds for, since we can look back at Daniel and identify the Papacy as antichrist. Nonetheless, nowhere in the New Testament do you find any mention of a coming out from the church that was then being established.

The Bible in both testaments gives us reason to believe there would be a falling away from the truth in the Christian church shortly after the fall of the Roman Empire. Major false doctrines began to enter the church from fairly early on.

The church forced people out, as in the example of Martin Luther. It would have been better if the church in those early times had been able to be reformed from within, but the church rejected the efforts to genuinely reform it. It persecuted those who desired to follow God's commandments, so the only choice the loyal people of God had was to worship seperately from the established church.

Originally Posted By: Qinael

And in neither case, nor in Mrs. White's, am I surprised. Few if any prophets have ever been permitted to see the fall of their own people.

There are clear statements in the Bible regarding the fall of both the Jewish nation and the early Christian church. Both kinds of statements are found in the book of Daniel, and they are also found in Deuteronomy and in the prophets, as well as in the NT.

Your post brings up many good and interesting points, and I will respond to all of them. I'll be back to write more after I get some sleep.

[hch]

...

And it goes even further than that. Mrs. White not only gave less strongly worded "shall not fall" indications than any prior prophet, but she actually got closer to saying they would fall than any other prophet. She spoke of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon. She spoke of a time, in the past, where "we had hoped there would not be the need for another coming out." She spoke about the church being weighed in the balances, and the danger of being found wanting. She warned about the Laodicean condition, the very description of which contains a warning about being "spewed out" - no, not as individuals. Revelation was written to a collective church.

[Pastor_Chick]

Being a "sister to fallen Babylon" isn't the same as being Babylon, otherwise she would have said we were in danger of becoming Babylon. Ellen White warns over and over about the false teaching that the SDA church is Babylon, and she says that the SDA church will never be Babylon.

Having said that, I do completely agree with what Ellen White stated on MR 21, page 380. I believe the conditions she warned us of are even worse than they were when she wrote it [1886]. However, Ellen White saw the time coming when it would appear that the church seemed about ready to fall but it won't fall. I think it's important for us to carefully consider everything she says on these topics, otherwise we're likely to misunderstand her.

[Pastor_Chick]

Teresa,

Thank you for bringing the full context of "N's" quote about a "sister to fallen Babylon."

What I like to do is read for "principle."

We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors' wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? (TSB 188.3; Letter 51, 1886)

[teresaq]

Teresa,

Thank you for bringing the full context of "N's" quote about a "sister to fallen Babylon."

What I like to do is read for "principle."

snipped

We are discussing "The Sunday Law," even though it would appear that the topic has taken another turn. And yet, the very same principles are now being lived out as would have been under conditions of the "national Sunday law" that was expected at the close of the 19th century.

I thank you for your respectful answer...First I want to comprehend her thought and message in this address to elder Waggoner before looking for some general principle. There is a lot to digest right now.

[John317]

Thank you for your post, Pastor Chick.

I particularly like the clear and very significant distinctions you make here:

Quote:

There are several unsanctified spiritual conditions described within the writings:

1) Laodicean: A disgusting, but not hopeless, condition of half-heartedness.

2) Babylon: A confused, apostate, and deplorable condition, but not hopeless.

3) Babylon fallen: A confused, apostate, and fallen condition from which no recovery is possible.

[John317]

Be assured the the Church will prevail, but not all of its members.

This is the clear messsage of God's last day prophet to the Remnant.

I'm in contact with people who claim that Ellen White was wrong about this and that SDAs need to get out of the church because the seven last plagues will fall first on members of the SDA church. These same people claim to believe in Ellen White and quote her extensively, yet when it comes to this topic, as well as her words in Evangelism 614-617, they ignore what she wrote because it disagrees with their private opinions. Their views lead them to believe that "the shaking" shakes the wheat out while the tares remain.

[John317]

....If this means in all circumstances, no matter what happens, no matter what the church does or says or supports or fulfills it will be retained as the favored people... is this applicable to the Jewish or the Catholic Church? If not, why? Does God love Adventists more? Are we "more" His people than they were? See Romans 11 if you are tempted to consider "yes" for even a moment.

I'm not claiming that the SDA church will be God's Remnant church no matter what happens or no matter what the church does or says. What makes a church Babylon is its rejection of the Three Angels Messages and its rejection of the truth in regard to the judgment, the Second Coming, non-immorality of the wicked, the immutablity of the law of God, and the pre-existence and deity of Christ.

If the SDA church were to teach and practice the same as the fallen churches in regard to those doctrines-- those which Ellen White referred to as the "fundamental pillars of our faith"--- our beloved church would also be Babylonian. (It is true, by the way, that some individuals in the SDA church reject these doctrinal truths.)

Originally Posted By: Qinael

Why, then, are we not Jews expecting God to bring in a better High Priest after Caiaphas? Why are we not Catholics, expecting God to right the wrongs in the Papacy the way so many Catholics did for so very, very many years?

.....There is a time for every church when humans weigh it in their own human scales and find it wanting, being unled of God. There is a time for every church that has ever been where God weighed it in His own Divine scales and found it wanting.

How do you know the difference? There has never been a voice from on high - no glowing light attended Luther, no publicly visible angel from heaven to validate Mrs. White. So where is the difference?

Both the Jews and the Roman Catholic church have passed their probation. They're not going to change. Of course, God has millions of honest and sincere people among those groups who will be saved. To say that a church is part of Babylon is not to say that all the people in them are lost. It simply means that God is calling His people out of those bodies and into the Remnant church for the purpose of preparing for Christ's return and the giving of the true gospel to the world. It also means that those religious bodies are not God's channel of truth for these last days, although one can find some Bible truths still taught in those groups.

To bring the topic directly back to the Sunday law:

If the SDA church were ever to teach that Sunday is God's holy day; that the Sabbath is not God's seal; and that our beliefs with regard to the Sunday law are false, then as a church, we would be a part of Babylon. The same principle applies to the other foundational pillars of our faith, if as a body the church were to turn against those teachings, adopting & proclaiming intsead the false teachings of the popular churches of Babylon.

[teresaq]

Just a thought...No matter how many times I look in my bible I can not see another church/movement appear after the church of Laodicea.

This was not directed at MariaS...her name just came up for some reason...

[Pastor_Chick]

Just a thought...No matter how many times I look in my bible I can not see another church/movement appear after the church of Laodicea.

Dear Teresa,

Please consider the following development.

The laborers in the vineyard (Matt. 20:1-16) is a prophetic parable. The SOP indicates that "The Jews had been first called into the Lord's vineyard, and because of this they were proud and self-righteous." (COL 400)

We can look at history and see how this parable has been fulfilled.

Early morning laborers: The Jewish Church

Third-hour laborers: The Apostolic Church

Sixth-hour laborers: The Reformation Churches

Ninth-hour laborers: The Seventh-day Adventist Church

Eleventh-hour laborers: The 144,000/Church of Philadelphia

James White contended that Laodicea must repent and return to the condition of Philadelphia which would make up the sealed servants of God--the 144,000.

It is a mistake to view the "Laodicean church age" as a literal/visible church denomination. Half-heartedness and lukewarmness are the characteristics of the last period of earth's history among all churches of Christendom. While most are captive to mystic Babylon, they have been affected by the atmosphere of Laodicea, and in fact, it has been a depth of the that sad state that has precipitated more corruptions and spiritual failure within Babylon itself.

Then, when the "loud cry" finally comes, "In amazement they hear the testimony that Babylon is the church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from Heaven. The people go to their former teachers with the eager inquiry, Are these things so? The ministers present fables, prophesy smooth things, to soothe their fears, and quiet the awakened conscience." (4SP 424, 425)

What denominations would comprise members that would "go to their former teachers with eager inquiry" about hearing that "Babylon is the church?" Members of the fallen Sunda-keeping bodies would not be pricked by any such indictment. It is likely that they would not have any idea of what "Babylon is the church" means. They certainly would not be eager to inquire of their "former teachers." And, who would their "former teachers" be? Does this refer to their pastors? If so, why the inspired words "former teachers?"

To add to the dilemma, the "eager inquiry" is related to the following "sins of Babylon [being] laid open":

1) "The fearful results of a union of Church and State": Please tell me what modern denomination(s) would be concerned about "a union of Church and State." Even among Seventh-day Adventists in general, this concept is losing relevance. Most do not know how to recognize a union of church and state, or at least, the dangers thereof.

2) "the inroads of Spiritualism": Please inform me as to what modern denomination(s) would care or take this accusation seriously. Spiritualism has also become much more sophisticated and less recognizable. Few, even among Seventh-day Adventists, realize that going to lawyers for assistance and initiating civil lawsuits is condemned as "spiritualism."

3) "the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power": Please relate to me which modern denomination(s) would be concerned with such a complaint. As Protestantism becomes more closely joined to the "mother," the likelihood of sensing danger from the papal spirit is next to none.

Who is it then that would be so "eager" to find out the facts of these matters from "their former teachers?"

And, "The ministers present fables, prophesy smooth things, to soothe their fears, and quiet the awakened conscience." What are the "fables" and "smooth things" spoken by these ministers? What "fears" must be soothed? And, how would unmasking the "sins of Babylon" awaken conscience in the membership of the various churches of our day?

The questions I raise are important ones and revealing as well. Once we understand the principles involved, the answers become more apparent.

Thank you for your serious interest and diligent inquiry.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

Be assured the the Church will prevail, but not all of its members.

This is the clear messsage of God's last day prophet to the Remnant.

I'm in contact with people who claim that Ellen White was wrong about this and that SDAs need to get out of the church because the seven last plagues will fall first on members of the SDA church. These same people claim to believe in Ellen White and quote her extensively, yet when it comes to this topic, as well as her words in Evangelism 614-617, they ignore what she wrote because it disagrees with their private opinions. Their views lead them to believe that "the shaking" shakes the wheat out while the tares remain.

[hch]

...

I'm in contact with people who claim that Ellen White was wrong about this and that SDAs need to get out of the church because the seven last plagues will fall first on members of the SDA church. ....

Should not judgment begin at the house of God?

But my Brethren (SDA's) err in spiritualizing away a clear "Thus saith the Lord."

The seal of God in the forehead is a spiritual settling into the truth regarding obedience to God and His Commandments.

The Mark of the Beast is received in the hand and the forehead. But it is not a "Spiritual Mark" it is a literal mechanism that permits people to buy and sell. It is received because it is believed to be ok to do so. Revelation is very clear: without it no one can buy and sell.

Thus the SDA's that conclude that there is no danger in taking (let's say) a national credit card to buy and sell if it is not linked to the Sabbath or Sunday worship feel safe.

The problem is that God declares in Revelation that all who RECEIVE the mechanism to buy and sell will perish. Why?

It is not possible to have the MOB and the seal of God at the same time. To accept the "CARD" to buy and sell that is not linked to Sabbath violation seems OK? But those that receive it when it is not linked to the Sabbath-Sunday issue WILL wake up one morning to find that it was linked while they slept.

At that time the SDA's that did not wake up in time realize that they HAVE the MOB and they cannot undo their deception any more than Eve could uneat the fruit or restore it to the tree after it was plucked.

Thus it is vital to know that Mr. Obama is the American President that will implement this mechanism and lead America in the war against God's Church. Now is not the time to be ignorant of endtime issues.

[hch]

Just a thought...No matter how many times I look in my bible I can not see another church/movement appear after the church of Laodicea. ...

When Israel the church of Moses' Day entered the promised land only Joshua and Caleb were numbered among the faithful of their generation. But these individuals had to wait for the entire group to enter the Promised Land before they could go in.

The faithful in Laodicea will be the Church that meets Christ when He appears to the Obama-Nation.