The Sunday Law

[Pastor_Chick]

Dr. Rich,

Thank you for trying to clarify. You are an unusual SDA if you are not expecting a NSL. I happen to agree with you on that, however.

But, what was "the choice" referred to in your initial post? Somehow I missed that answer in your last explanation. Thank you kindly.

[Dr. Rich]

I see, the choice was to believe that Jesus could come at any time or not. I was just wondering if that choice would change if and when a NSL happened. It's no big deal. The problem is found in what EGW wrote what her god told her and found on page 433 of the Great Controversy, in that as of Oct. 22 of 1844 everything had been done that was prophesied except for the coming in the clouds. That is IF she was the true author of the GC.

[Pastor_Chick]

Originally Posted By: Qinael

....If this means in all circumstances, no matter what happens, no matter what the church does or says or supports or fulfills it will be retained as the favored people... is this applicable to the Jewish or the Catholic Church? If not, why? Does God love Adventists more? Are we "more" His people than they were? See Romans 11 if you are tempted to consider "yes" for even a moment.

I'm not claiming that the SDA church will be God's Remnant church no matter what happens or no matter what the church does or says. What makes a church Babylon is its rejection of the Three Angels Messages and its rejection of the truth in regard to the judgment, the Second Coming, non-immorality of the wicked, the immutablity of the law of God, and the pre-existence and deity of Christ.

If the SDA church were to teach and practice the same as the fallen churches in regard to those doctrines-- those which Ellen White referred to as the "fundamental pillars of our faith"--- our beloved church would also be Babylonian. (It is true, by the way, that some individuals in the SDA church reject these doctrinal truths.)

Originally Posted By: Qinael

Why, then, are we not Jews expecting God to bring in a better High Priest after Caiaphas? Why are we not Catholics, expecting God to right the wrongs in the Papacy the way so many Catholics did for so very, very many years?

.....There is a time for every church when humans weigh it in their own human scales and find it wanting, being unled of God. There is a time for every church that has ever been where God weighed it in His own Divine scales and found it wanting.

How do you know the difference? There has never been a voice from on high - no glowing light attended Luther, no publicly visible angel from heaven to validate Mrs. White. So where is the difference?

Both the Jews and the Roman Catholic church have passed their probation. They're not going to change. Of course, God has millions of honest and sincere people among those groups who will be saved. To say that a church is part of Babylon is not to say that all the people in them are lost. It simply means that God is calling His people out of those bodies and into the Remnant church for the purpose of preparing for Christ's return and the giving of the true gospel to the world. It also means that those religious bodies are not God's channel of truth for these last days, although one can find some Bible truths still taught in those groups.

To bring the topic directly back to the Sunday law:

If the SDA church were ever to teach that Sunday is God's holy day; that the Sabbath is not God's seal; and that our beliefs with regard to the Sunday law are false, then as a church, we would be a part of Babylon. The same principle applies to the other foundational pillars of our faith, if as a body the church were to turn against those teachings, adopting & proclaiming intsead the false teachings of the popular churches of Babylon.

John,

Somewhere (maybe in this thread) you have stated that things have gotten "worse" in the SDA Church. That means, the trend is downward and not upward. Lamenting the "bad" is not going to reverse the trend. We see the world being destroyed before our eyes, and we realize that nothing is going to save it from utter destruction.

I would suggest that there is more to understanding the truth of God's word and the SOP than "the letter." There is a "spirit of law" and application that means much.

Sabbath is MORE than "a day." If the whole world became convinced that Saturday was the correct day for worship and accepted "the 7th day" as the Bible Sabbath day, it would not change the hearts of men and women one stitch.

But, when a person steps INTO "the Sabbath" -- that is, the "spirit of Sabbath," their heart IS converted to the "rest of YAHWEH." It is THEN that they can "enter into His rest." This will be the true test of Sabbath, and it is for us NOW -- not some far off time in the future.

As for the relationship of the SDA Church to this subject, I recommend reading the following link:

http://pw1.netcom.com/~crmin/csdachurch/reformer.html

I hope all of us will come to understand what the Spirit is saying to the churches.

[skyblue888]

Christ would not come "right now," as there remains the time of Jacob's trouble, the close of probation, and the announcing of the day and the hour to the saints...

Qinael

_____________________________________

You seem to be placing the time of Jacob's trouble before the close of probation. You do know that the time of Jacob's trouble is after the close of probation, don't you?

sky :)

[skyblue888]

For those of you who are interested in the order of last day events re: National Sunday Law,,,, please take a look at these two booklets Vol.1 and Vol.2 of The Order of Last Day Events from www.hidden-treasures.ca

sky

[Dr. Rich]

For those of you who are interested in the order of last day events re: National Sunday Law,,,, please take a look at these two booklets Vol.1 and Vol.2 of The Order of Last Day Events from www.hidden-treasures.ca

sky

Thanks Sky. I read some of them over and it looks like some great fictional 'stories' since it is clear the foundation for the author's opinion is from someone's words who are long dead. Dan. 12:10 makes it clear that no one will understand the end time events who are long dead because it only pertains to those living in the last generation. I would rate these books about the same as all of those written about the rapture.

[Guest]

Thanks Sky. I read some of them over and it looks like some great fictional 'stories' since it is clear the foundation for the author's opinion is from someone's words who are long dead.

Daniel is long dead too, but you haven't thrown his writings out. Yet.

If you're saying that you only believe and take to heart prophets who are still alive, then you may as well throw out the rest of your Bible. That will speed up the process that you're already on.

Therefore, long dead is not a valid excuse, or reason.

[Dr. Rich]

LOL, first try reading the verses I wrote before you dive right in. If you can't get the picture from that them you are beyond help.

[Light Fox]

Christ would not come "right now," as there remains the time of Jacob's trouble, the close of probation, and the announcing of the day and the hour to the saints...

Qinael

_____________________________________

You seem to be placing the time of Jacob's trouble before the close of probation. You do know that the time of Jacob's trouble is after the close of probation, don't you?

sky

Hello Sky,

Thank you for the post. Yes, if you will read the sentence before the one you quoted, you will see what you are looking for. What you've quoted was not intended to be chronological, just a list of events required in the order they came to mind to write.

It appears that this thread is getting volatile. I certainly hope that the discussions will remain civil. It has been fairly interesting up til now.

[Dr. Rich]

The order of the events are very important. Rev. 8 makes it clear that there is a true oder of events and you can't have event 5 happen before 1,2 ,3, and 4. It appears that even the books sky is referring to gives us this rule. Another rule is that ALL of the event must happen befor that event is over. Another rule is that the time for event(s) must be taken as they are given unless a man's life can't last that long.

What this means is that all of these events will happen in one generation's time. The 1350 days are just that, The 3 and half days are just that and start at the start of God's year, which is the spring equinox. Months are not put into years, but kept new moons. The first of the 42 months start on a new moon and end on the day just before a new moon.

But the most important rule is that NO ONE will understand end time prophecy except for the bondservant living in the last generation. Why? Because it only pertains to them. It is these 144,000 bondservants that wake up the sleeping servants for the bride (ten virgins) to tell them that they slept thru Jesus' coming like a thief (not the same event as comeing in the clouds that takes place after the time of trouble.)

This waking of the bride's maids who are the SDA church, will really cause lots of fighting among themselves. They fight over the simple truth that the 144k tell/teach them. Some see the simple truth, it being the words of Jesus ONLY (not Pauls) and trim their wicks (repent and accept the real truth) and therefore become sealed along with the 144k and the marriage feast that is held for them to show all of them what will happen during the time of trouble.

[BobRyan]

For those of you who are interested in the order of last day events re: National Sunday Law,,,, please take a look at these two booklets Vol.1 and Vol.2 of The Order of Last Day Events from www.hidden-treasures.ca

sky

Have you seen the "popular demand" aspect in the "Free Sunday" movement in the EU.

Apparently they have a new law as of 2010 that if 1 million people will sign a petition in the EU then that petition can be proposed as a law and voted on by the parlament. They are pushing for a "free Sunday" law for religious and family-values reasons.

Facinating.

in Christ,

Bob

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

Have you seen the "popular demand" aspect in the "Free Sunday" movement in the EU.

Apparently they have a new law as of 2010 that if 1 million people will sign a petition in the EU then that petition can be proposed as a law and voted on by the parlament. They are pushing for a "free Sunday" law for religious and family-values reasons.

Facinating.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

Share the reference, please. I would like to comment on it.

[BobRyan]

Zenit – RCC news agency

Free Sunday – March 17, 2010.

Need 1 million EU citizens to sign petition then citizens can directly “propose a law” in congress to see if it passes.

http://www.zenit.org/article-28664?l=english

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

Have you seen the "popular demand" aspect in the "Free Sunday" movement in the EU.

Apparently they have a new law as of 2010 that if 1 million people will sign a petition in the EU then that petition can be proposed as a law and voted on by the parlament. They are pushing for a "free Sunday" law for religious and family-values reasons.

Facinating.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

We predict that Sunday laws are passed in respone to popular demand - not some wrong-headed idea that this or that politician dreams up. Interesting to see how this is being settup in the EU.

We also claim that like the law forbidding Daniel to pray to God for a time - the pretense will be something like the wellfare of the state or society -- not just a religious counter to what God says.

in Christ,

Bob

[Pastor_Chick]

We predict that Sunday laws are passed in respone to popular demand - not some wrong-headed idea that this or that politician dreams up. Interesting to see how this is being settup in the EU.

We also claim that like the law forbidding Daniel to pray to God for a time - the pretense will be something like the wellfare of the state or society -- not just a religious counter to what God says.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

So, I suppose you are saying, "See, these people are proving us right!" Is that it?

[BobRyan]

It may seem that way to non-SDAs - but what I am saying is that fore-warned is fore-armed. We have the chance to see a mechanism in living color where the populace at large are in a position to craft a law and demand that legislators submit it for them.

We also see an example where Sunday civil laws are stated to be for both religious and family-values reasons with the main emphasis being on family values and patriotism.

We need to be learning lessons from the early-warning given and prepare to stand when the time comes.

in Christ

Bob

[Light Fox]

So... when it's a Sunday law advanced for "family-values and patriotism" that may or may not come to pass, it's rallying time.

When it's a Trademark law implemented for "property holding and protecting our good name" that is putting Adventists in jail for their religion, it's just the way the laws work.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

We predict that Sunday laws are passed in respone to popular demand - not some wrong-headed idea that this or that politician dreams up. Interesting to see how this is being settup in the EU.

We also claim that like the law forbidding Daniel to pray to God for a time - the pretense will be something like the wellfare of the state or society -- not just a religious counter to what God says.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

So, I suppose you are saying, "See, these people are proving us right!" Is that it?

Well; I noticed that this great "democratic" law being proposed is being touted as something that will strengthen democracy, and the family. Buzz phrases like "Mom & Dad belong to us on Sundays" are being used to evoke the needed emotional responses to get such a law passed in the EU.

But if such a law were to be passed here where I live, the very first thing it would do is to slash my income by 25%; and how is that so "democratic" when I am forced to not work, and to reduce my income like this? I don't need the state to tell me how to strengthen my family or when to take time off to be with them; sometimes I do it on Wednesdays or on any other of the 6 days a week. It's none of the states business! Nor is it anybody elses.

I don't call this proposed legislation democracy; I call it being forced. It will create untold hardhips for thousands. My family is just fine without this kind of hard-core state intervention.

[BobRyan]

So... when it's a Sunday law advanced for "family-values and patriotism" that may or may not come to pass, it's rallying time.

When it's a Trademark law implemented for "property holding and protecting our good name" ... it's just the way the laws work.

You got it.

No Bible commandment saying that it is evil for that State to try and protect the property of its citizens.

As you note - pretty simple.

But when it comes to the State trying to enforce a day of worship of its own making and abolish the Bible Sabbath -- well that is another matter entirely.

Just stating the obvious on that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[Pastor_Chick]

Bob,

Here is what you quoted from "Q":

So... when it's a Sunday law advanced for "family-values and patriotism" that may or may not come to pass, it's rallying time.

When it's a Trademark law implemented for "property holding and protecting our good name" ... it's just the way the laws work.

[Pastor_Chick]

I would like to offer a few reminders.

1) A "Sunday law" that does not include a mandate to violate the Bible Sabbath and restrict liberty of conscience among the "Sabbath-keeping sect" cannot fulfill the prophecy of EGW.

The time will come when men will not only forbid Sunday work, but they will try to force men to labor on the Sabbath, and to subscribe to Sunday observance or forfeit their freedom and their lives. (RH 04-06-11)

[Overaged]

I would like to offer a few reminders.

1) A "Sunday law" that does not include a mandate to violate the Bible Sabbath and restrict liberty of conscience among the "Sabbath-keeping sect" cannot fulfill the prophecy of EGW.

2) Keeping Saturday as "the Sabbath day" is not any "evidence" OR "proof" that one is fulfilling the command to keep the Sabbath holy.

3) The real test in the final judgment is character.

You are not really using EGWs writings in a way that she would approve; however, your three main points are worth looking at.

1/ Sunday laws do not have to include that mandate until the very end. We are actually told that it will be an incremental occurence which will steal upon the world gradually, almost imperceptively at first. But certainly, any Sunday law, regardless of it's imposition on the seventh-day Sabbath & those who wish to keep that day; shows us that so far, everything we were taught is true.

2/ Neither is keeping Sunday proof of anything; except that some are open to what God says, and some are not.

3/ The real test you speak about will be revealed by those who obey God, and those who do not.

[BobRyan]

1. The passing of Federal Sunday Laws that are more or less the same as we already have at the State level will not require us to "make a choice" because you simply do not "have the choice" to drag the owner of some closed-store to their place of business and make them open their store on Sunday.

But what it will do - is create the last sign for people to leave the large cities.

2. The passing of subsequent federal Sunday laws that either require that you sign some document proclaiming Sunday as a religious sacred or holy day ... would cause us to then "make a choice".

Alternatively the passing of some law forbidding worship or rest on the Sabbath would do the same thing.

in Christ,

bob

[Dr. Rich]

Pastor C, not bad, but what r people going to do when they are caught with their pants down when the NSL never happens?