The Washington Post, Adventists & Abortion

[Dr. Shane]

Talk is cheap!

Exactly! That is why I asked which pro-life organizations you financially support. I support Care-Net. How many hours of volunteer service do you give to crisis pregnancy centers? My wife and I take them used cars seats and baby clothing. Are you just filled with heated, inflammatory opinions or are you actually doing something for the cause?

[Overaged]

There are many false accusations you make here; you are not stupid, and you know full well what they are; they have been repeated by you and pointed out by me several times. To accuse the entire church of something just a small minority of individuals have done/are doing, is a false accusation. You are deliberately attacking the church with all kinds of other issues, mixed in with this one and calling it all the same issue. Your posting on this subject is totally disjointed, and disconnected. What you say here is like me saying, "OK. Stan Jensen's Dad went out and stole $50.00 from his neighbor. Therefore, SINCE THEY DIDN'T THEN DISOWN HIM AS FATHER OF THAT FAMILY, THEN THE WHOLE Stan Jensen family is guilty of theft."

What you say is that "a few Adventists have broken the 6th commandment; and therefore, BECAUSE THEY DON'T DISFELLOWSHIP THEM THE WHOLE CHURCH IS GUILTY OF GENOCIDE."

Both scenarios are totally unrelated to reality and the truth of the matter. You have not been able to say one word about what YOU are doing to support genuine pro-life activities, including organizations such as Birthright, which helps individuals and couples who are hit with unexpected, or unwanted pregnancy. The Church also places a heavy emphasis on this end of the scale with their teachings and programs re the family, and what God's ideal is, even when faced with unplanned pregnancy. As I said before, what you are doing has nothing to do with pro-life. It is a militant, feverish attack on the Church over a number of side-issues that you have distorted into your own private vendetta. You will never change anything anywhere for the better like this. You have now become part of the problem instead of the solution.

[doug yowell]

Nic...

Tell me again, how the Church failed in Rwanda?

I do agree there was some Adventist who support Hitler and the invasion into Poland and other atrocities.

You failed to mention that there were some Adventist who support GWB in the invasion of Iraq and other atrocities.

Seems a little off track, Stan. Maybe fodder for another thread.

[Overaged]

Seems a little off track, Stan. Maybe fodder for another thread.

Well why didn't you say this to Nic because he was the one who dragged other issues like this into it in the first place. methinks you are a little out in what they call "left field" on this comment.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Talk is cheap!

Exactly! That is why I asked which pro-life organizations you financially support. I support Care-Net. How many hours of volunteer service do you give to crisis pregnancy centers? My wife and I take them used cars seats and baby clothing. Are you just filled with heated, inflammatory opinions or are you actually doing something for the cause?

Nic IS a prolife ministry. Informing peoples's opinions about abortion realities is only one of the aspects of being prolife. Not everyone who volunteers at a CPC is required to put in time writing articles,sending letters to the editor,or standing in a picket line to prove they're true prolifers. Nor is everyone who is active in the communications aspect required to volunteer at a CPC. On the other hand, I'd be willing to bet that Nic would be open to volunteer his time or pennies (at 80+years of age)if Adventism would be willing to create, support,or promote an SDA CPC.If you demand volunteering as a proof of Nic's prolife loyalty then I think you should also demand it of the church that claims to be prolife.If the church actually was doing something(anything!!)to publically and actively promote a prolife reputation then I'm convinced that most of us would not only be involved in it but also bragging on what it was attempting to do.When the only reputation the church has is nebulus guidelines,a divided constituency, and charges of it's institutions actively performing elective abortions how can anyone in good conscience label it as being prolife?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Seems a little off track, Stan. Maybe fodder for another thread.

Well why didn't you say this to Nic because he was the one who dragged other issues like this into it in the first place. methinks you are a little out in what they call "left field" on this comment.

I feel more like a centerfielder who has to back up both other fielders.I agree that Nic brought up the church " errors" but only in his response to the imlications that the church cannot make mistakes. There is overwhelming evidence concerning our failure during the Nazi era.Even if reports of Rwandan "errors" prove false it does not disprove Nic's point that we as a church have made moral blunders in the past. Nor can it prove that Nic is wrong on this issue. So why continue to focus on a red herring? Plus, Rwanda sounds like it would be a very interesting and informative discussion.Thus, my perfect throw home from the left field wall!

[Overaged]

Sounds like Sleeping Adventist excuses #345 & #346 to me

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

I think Nic may be a lost cause. Well, I guess no one is really a lost cause. Maybe Nic will see the error of his ways and repent for being a talebearer and accuser of the brethern.

Did you know that those huge letters you displayed in your posting are equivalent to shouting. This is rather significant. When a person engaged in a discussion resorts to shouting, this is quite often an evidence that he no longer has a valid argument.

Another sign of weakness is when a person starts attacking the character of the opponent. This is another sign that the individual is on the loosing side. I hope you realize that you have given the readers both signs of weakness in a single posting. You have resorted to “shouting” and you have attacked your opponent without providing any evidence in support of your accusation.

I hope you will reconsider your strategy. Can we focus on the evidence instead of throwing mud against those who disagree with us? If you still think that I am a talebearer, then show me where I have erred in the facts I have been providing you and where I have misinterpreted Scripture or distorted the facts of history.

[Overaged]

I hope you will reconsider your strategy. Can we focus on the evidence instead of throwing mud against those who disagree with us? If you still think that I am a talebearer, then show me where I have erred in the facts I have been providing you and where I have misinterpreted Scripture or distorted the facts of history.

This sounds like excuse #346. I am waiting for your "evidence."

[Dr. Shane]

Nic IS a prolife ministry.

Hot air is not a ministry. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (Ja. 1:27)

[Dr. Shane]

Did you know that those huge letters you displayed in your posting are equivalent to shouting[?]

No, I don't think that is correct. Using all capital letters is what is generally considered shouting in the text format.

[Overaged]

Well; Nic wants to psycho-analyze me so lets allow it and see what he comes up with. LOL, his "hard evidence" will go soft once I compare his list to my wife's...

[Nic Samojluk]

Overage said: “The paltry blasphemy you call evidence is not; it is not even facts, let alone evidence. Quoting 23 year old surveys (without giving credible verifiable details), is something else we can add to your list of weapons against innocent people in the Church who have never had anything to do with abortions.”

I say: The survey I cited is in black and white in the pages of Spectrum magazine and the man who wrote it is the alleged main architect of our “Guidelines on Abortion,” Dr. Gerald Winslow, an ethics and religion LLU professor. You can check his curriculum on the Internet.

He is the one who reported to the world that five of our Adventist hospitals were engaged in elective abortions. Since when is it a sin to quote what one of our distinguished ethics leaders have put in print? Blasphemy is to fabricate false allegations out of thin air. All I did was to quote what one of the most reputable Adventist leaders have published, and you accuse me of blasphemy? Was not this the accusation used against Jesus before his crucifixion?

And regarding the history of how we got into the elective abortion business, you need to read the facts which are also on the pages of Spectrum magazine. Do you call this blasphemy as well? Adventist hospitals were offering the so called “therapeutic abortions” years before 1970. What the non-Adventist physicians at our Castle Memorial Hospital in Hawaii demanded was not the right to offer abortions for women who had been raped, but rather abortion on demand.

A man who had donated $25,000 dollars for the building of said hospital asked an abortion for his daughter, and management didn’t know what to do. The issue was raised to the Pacific Union, and it was elevated to the North American Division. This was against the policy of the church but management feared bankruptcy in the event all those physicians took their patients to other hospitals, and the church caved in to the pressure.

What the church did was very clever. It designed the guidelines on abortion which do not condone abortion on demand, but granted our hospitals the privilege of drafting their own guidelines, and bingo, the church could say that their guidelines do not condone elective abortions, but our Castle Memorial Hospital went ahead with their decision to offer abortions on demand. This is the reason LLU ethics department decided to carry out the above mentioned survey which revealed that five of our hospitals were in the abortion on demand business.

All this is documented in the pages of Spectrum magazine and the original paper submitted to Spectrum of which I have a copy. This document was among the 36 other papers presented at the 1988 conference on abortion organized by the LLU Center for Christian Bioethics. All this is in black and white, but you accuse me of blasphemy? I have done the research; Have you? If you haven’t, how do you dare to accuse me of blasphemy?

Overage said: “you sin by making it out to be the whole church”

I say: I am not the one who published all this to the whole world! It was Spectrum and the LLU ethics department who organized the 1988 convention. If it is a sin to engage in reading what was published by reputable Adventists in the past, then perhaps it is a sin to read the biblical report about the sin of David with Bathsheba!

[Nic Samojluk]

Overage said: “You call the garbage on your own website "solid evidence," and that is ridiculous. You are your own reference!”

I say: You are distorting the true facts of the case! The main sources for my research were what other Adventists had published regarding abortion. Here is the evidence which you describe as “garbage:” If you do the math work, you will discover that the references to my own work does not amount to even one percent of the total. This shows how ludicrous is your accusation.

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[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged said: “Stop doing the work of Satan on the internet”

I say: Your accusation actually goes against all the over 700 individuals I cited in my research. Do you really believe that all those 700 persons were doing the work of Satan when they tried to speak a word on behalf of the unborn? How credible is your argument?

Are the Bible writers who recorded for posterity the sins cited in the book of Judges, or the murder committed by Moses, or David sin with Bathsheba were doing Satan’s work? Did you notice that the Bible describes humanity truthfully instead of glossing over the facts?

Did you read how the True Witness described each of the seven churches in the book of Revelation? If you were asked to edit the Bible, would you sanitize it? Please, apply this to the history of the Adventist Church as recorded by those who took the time to record for posterity what took place in gthe past.

[Nic Samojluk]

Shane said: “Just wondering, Nic. Do you volunteer at pregnancy crisis centers or other pro-life organizations?”

I say: No! I don’t believe in displaying pictures of aborted babies in public. I did suggest to pro-life leaders that at least, if they do this to place the pictures of live babies alongside those of aborted ones. Besides, if I did participate in said activities, I would not have the time to do the work the Lord laid on my heart. On top of this, I believe that women should counsel women who are about to abort their unborn babies—not men.

Nevertheless, I used to participate in the distribution of pro-life material from house to house when I was younger. I am almost 80 now and my feet are not as strong as they used to be.

Shane said: “Do you financial support pro-life organizations?”

I say: Yes, I do; but I am very selective about the organizations I contribute to. My preference would have been to do his through the Adventist church. I have tried this on several occasions without success.

I have sent my pro-life donations both to my local church and to the General Conference more than once. Each time my contributions were returned with the following message: “The church does not have a pro-life program.”

[doug yowell]

Sounds like Sleeping Adventist excuses #345 & #346 to me

First,I was fully awake. Second,this was not directly a biblical issue. Third,I never wear a bathrobe.

[Nic Samojluk]

Stan said: “Tell me again, how the Church failed in Rwanda?”

I say: This is the way I see what took place in Germany, Rwanda, and the U.S: I see in this a trend. Our church failed in Germany at the highest level of church administration; in Rwanda the church failed at a lower level of church administration; and in the U.S. our church failed in sticking to what was their moral duty.

The church should have said to our Castle Memorial Hospital managers: You can’t offer abortion on demand and continue to have an official connection with the Adventist Church. You need to make a choice between remaining as a member of our Adventist community of faith or else become independent like the Quiet Hour or 3ABN.

Unfortunately, our church compromised on a moral issue. It said in essence: We do not condone elective abortions, but you have the freedom to draft your own guidelines, which is what they did, and five other hospitals emulated them. In this we followed the sorry example set by Pilate, who said: “I am innocent of the blood of this man.” He thought that by letting others do the killing he would be guiltless. He wasn’t!

It is not too late to alter this erroneous course. The Lord is merciful and willing to forgive! The blood of those innocent babies claims for justice like the blood of Abel and the blood of all the Christian martyrs. We need to repent of this great sin. I hope and pray the church will do what is right.

My question is: If we failed in Germany, in Rwanda, and in the U.S., are we going to have the moral courage to be faithful when the great Sabbath test will come as predicted by Ellen White?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Nic IS a prolife ministry.

Hot air is not a ministry. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (Ja. 1:27)

You're chasing your own tail,Shane,while at the same time condemning the very church you're trying to defend. If what you say above is applicable to the abortion debate then you have just validated Nic's position that the church is NOT PROLIFE.Since the church has no ministries to either stop women from aborting,minister to the spiritual consequences of those who choose to do so, or support those who choose not to,it may be concluded (according to your judgment)that the church's "guidelines" also constitute hot air. Oddly enough,Ginger Harwood-Hanks,hardly a prolife supporter,once made the same observation about the then newly released guidelines.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

You failed to mention that there were some Adventist who support GWB in the invasion of Iraq and other atrocities.

I supported GWB and the US Congress in the invasion of Iraq but that was as an individual. I am not aware that the organized Adventist church in any official capacity, at any level endorsed the invasion. Did I miss something there? In contrast, the organized Adventist church in Germany did officially support Hitler.

When President Bush announced his pre-emptive strike against the country of Iraq, I wrote an article questioning the wisdom of invading a country on the suspicion and fear that we might be a future target by said country. This seemed to me contrary to sane wisdom. Had either the Soviet Union or the U.S. acted on such insane doctrine during the cold war, we would not be here today.

[Nic Samojluk]

That was one retired Pastor, and as I said earlier, those who knew him will tell you it was unjust.

Repeat that was one Retired Pastor, ONE RETIRED PASTOR.

Tell how the Church failed?

Do we know when he had retired? Does this mean that former presidents of associations or unions are free to use their influence to contribute to the death of hundreds of Adventist members of the church?

Didn’t many other Adventists engage in the genocide of innocent people? I suggest that you contact Osborn, the author of the Rwanda article. He lived in Rwanda, and has recently visited said country. He knows much more than I do.

[Nic Samojluk]

There were significant amount of Heros in Rwanda, not among the least was Paul from the Movie Hotel Rwanda, and several others. I met some of them in 1994.

There were heroes in Germany as well! This does not negate the fact that the church did fail the moral test. This is why the church was forced to apologize.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Talk is cheap!

Exactly! That is why I asked which pro-life organizations you financially support. I support Care-Net. How many hours of volunteer service do you give to crisis pregnancy centers? My wife and I take them used cars seats and baby clothing. Are you just filled with heated, inflammatory opinions or are you actually doing something for the cause?

I did anwer this question already this morning.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

You failed to mention that there were some Adventist who support GWB in the invasion of Iraq and other atrocities.

I supported GWB and the US Congress in the invasion of Iraq but that was as an individual. I am not aware that the organized Adventist church in any official capacity, at any level endorsed the invasion. Did I miss something there? In contrast, the organized Adventist church in Germany did officially support Hitler.

Speaking of missing something,I wasn't even aware that the invasion of Iraq was on the same level of the atrocity scale as the Final Solution.I'll have to pass this on to those Iraqi families living here in the U.S. But I digress...

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged said: “There are many false accusations you make here; you are not stupid, and you know full well what they are; they have been repeated by you and pointed out by me several times.”

I say: I did ask you to identify the alleged “false accusations” I have made here and you tell me that I know which ones they are? Would you present such an argument in court? If the judge asked you to present your accusation against the defendant, would you respond by arguing that the defendant knows which ones they are?

In this case the jury are the readers, and they are smarter than to make a judgment on the basis of hearsay. Your duty is to present the evidence. You have not done so. You are either lazy, or else you know that your case is rather weak.

Overaged said: “What you say is that "a few Adventists have broken the 6th commandment; and therefore, BECAUSE THEY DON'T DISFELLOWSHIP THEM THE WHOLE CHURCH IS GUILTY OF GENOCIDE."

I say: What I see wrong is for the church to say that we do not condone elective abortions, but like Pilate try to wash their hand of the blood of the hundreds or thousands of unborn babies who were slaughtered inside our own hospitals because the church granted our hospitals the right to draft their own guidelines which resulted in the provision of what the church condemns: abortion on demand in five of our medical institutions.

That is very similar to what Pilate did. He said: “I am innocent of the blood of this man,” and thought that he was not guilty of the death of Jesus. Was he not guilty? Our church should have disconnected itself from any hospital allowing elective abortions on their premises.

The entire church is an accomplice to this horrendous crime for not speaking on behalf of the innocent victims. The church should have disconnected itself from those institutions in the event they persisted to go their own way in violation of church policy. When the church compromises on moral issues this leads church members to do the same.