The Washington Post, Adventists & Abortion

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Did you know that those huge letters you displayed in your posting are equivalent to shouting[?]

No, I don't think that is correct. Using all capital letters is what is generally considered shouting in the text format.

I disagree. Oversize print is equivalent to shouting as well. Let the jury decide!

[Dr. Shane]

the church has no ministries to either stop women from aborting, minister to the spiritual consequences of those who choose to do so, or support those who choose not...

The church doesn't have to cover every ministry there is. God has called the Adventist movement to a purpose. God has called Focus on the Family to a purpose. God has called Care-Net to a purpose. God has called the Salvation Army to a purpose. We can all work together to accomplish the will of God.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

That is why I asked which pro-life organizations you financially support... Are you just filled with heated, inflammatory opinions or are you actually doing something for the cause?

I did anwer this question already this morning.

Not in this thread.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

the church has no ministries to either stop women from aborting, minister to the spiritual consequences of those who choose to do so, or support those who choose not...

The church doesn't have to cover every ministry there is. God has called the Adventist movement to a purpose. God has called Focus on the Family to a purpose. God has called Care-Net to a purpose. God has called the Salvation Army to a purpose. We can all work together to accomplish the will of God.

God has (right) armed Adventists with a medical missionary ministry that it's hospitals are supposed to be an integral part of. We have ministries to help people recover from physical and spiritual maladies. Alcohol,drug, and tobacco use,proper eating habits,ect... but not a single program to offer to the 1 million+ women facing the most emotionally and spiritually distressing period of their lives? A prolife church without a single prolife outreach? Yet you justify their lack of involvement but are quick to criticize Nic for (allegedly)taking the exact same approach. What gives with that? At least Nic is willing to publically criticize the abortion industry.The church is mute.

[Overaged]

At least Nic is willing to publically criticize the abortion industry.The church is mute.

Yes; Nic is quite willing to criticise just about anything to do with Church. It's too bad he doesn't give us actual evidence of what he says. Opinions are not evidence. Pro-life has nothing to do with what he is doing.

Any church I have ever been to has family related ministries which do minister to singles, and pregnant singles, helping them to have the baby and keep it. Nic doesn't have a clue what pro-life is about, that's why he tried to accuse me of saying I am a better pro-lifer than him. He has nothing else to resort to but internet religiosity.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

At least Nic is willing to publically criticize the abortion industry.The church is mute.

Yes; Nic is quite willing to criticise just about anything to do with Church. It's too bad he doesn't give us actual evidence of what he says. Opinions are not evidence. Pro-life has nothing to do with what he is doing.

Any church I have ever been to has family related ministries which do minister to singles, and pregnant singles, helping them to have the baby and keep it. Nic doesn't have a clue what pro-life is about, that's why he tried to accuse me of saying I am a better pro-lifer than him. He has nothing else to resort to but internet religiosity.

Nic may not be as perfect as me but I don't think he's as evil as you make him out to be. I think your anger is starting to get the best of you.It might be more effective if you addressed the evidence he presented rather than to keep claiming he hasn't presented any.Nic and I don't agree on several important issues but that doesn't make him self righteous or devious,just wrong.

[Dr. Shane]

At least Nic is willing to publically criticize the abortion industry.The church is mute.

The church isn't mute. It just isn't as extremist as Nic is. The church takes a position and makes it public. But it isn't at the front of our mission. We worship a big God. God has people ministering people in those situations. I, for one, financially support Care-Net which is a network of crisis pregnancy centers. A lot of people like to talk a lot but talk doesn't help girls in a crisis. Money speaks much loader than words. That is why I financially support Care-Net.

[Overaged]

Now you resort to calling me "angry" when you don't even know me and can't even see me while I am posting. All I am doing is stating my viewpoints, just like you - why do I have to be labelled as "angry" just because you don't like what I say? Is that the best you or Nic can do? Great. That's a big help to everyone isn't it? If you are so satisfied with such conclusions; then help yourself to a nice big cup of "Who cares?"

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

At least Nic is willing to publically criticize the abortion industry.The church is mute.

The church isn't mute. It just isn't as extremist as Nic is. The church takes a position and makes it public. But it isn't at the front of our mission. We worship a big God. God has people ministering people in those situations. I, for one, financially support Care-Net which is a network of crisis pregnancy centers. A lot of people like to talk a lot but talk doesn't help girls in a crisis. Money speaks much loader than words. That is why I financially support Care-Net.

I support a CPC in Glendale,Ca. because there is no,zero SDA prolife ministry in existence.I helped create the one and only Adventist CPC back in the early 90's. It eventually had to rely on the contributions of mostly non-Adventists in order to stay afloat.LLU was located less than 2 miles away. The only support we got from the SDA community was the clientele. Many Acadeny students. Many pastor's girls.If money speaks louder than words then even you condemn the church's public position because the church has contributed not one penny to ministering to the position you say is one that they make publically. We all agree that actions speak louder than words but you seem willing to make an exception for the church in this case.With the church it is now that words speak louder than actions.Adventist youth groups,Academy and University teams are all actively involved with "ministries" like feeding the poor, picking up trash on the highways,building homes,and schools,and churches,fighting homelessness and aids,ect...ect...ect...but there's not a single minute dedicated to working with the prolife movement to allieviate abortions or their consequences.Apparantly the church's mission has room for everything but a prolife ministry.

[Overaged]

The last "Pro-life" activist I know of in our area was in **** where he shot an abortion doctor to death.

[doug yowell]

Now you resort to calling me "angry" when you don't even know me and can't even see me while I am posting. All I am doing is stating my viewpoints, just like you - why do I have to be labelled as "angry" just because you don't like what I say? Is that the best you or Nic can do? Great. That's a big help to everyone isn't it? If you are so satisfied with such conclusions; then help yourself to a nice big cup of "Who cares?"

So I'm wrong? Is this the way you speak to others when you're not angry?? I don't like what you say because it's said in a judgmental, disrespectful,and evil inpugning way. That generally indicates that the person communicating that way has been influenced by something other than a normal even keeled emotional control. This causes them to act out of character and so it seemed out of place for you. If I'm wrong then maybe you would consider how you are communicating to us and choose a different way of wording your viewpoints.Sometimes it would just be nice to accomodate other people's misunderstandings for the sake of the discussion. Otherwise,it seems like just a bunch of personal attacks on character and motives.

[doug yowell]

The last "Pro-life" activist I know of in our area was in **** where he shot an abortion doctor to death.

You need to get more involved,OA.I doubt that anyone else in the prolife movement knew him. All the other people (lots of women too)are incredibly wonderful. I think you'd really like them if you got to know them.

[Overaged]

Sorry; but not if Nic is an example to go by! True pro-life activities are taught and practiced by our Church such as

Quote:

“3.In practical, tangible ways the church as a supportive community should express its commitment to the value of human life. These ways should include: (a) strengthening family relationships, ( educating both genders concerning Christian principles of human sexuality, © emphasizing responsibility of both male and female for family planning, (d) calling both to be responsible for the consequences of behaviors that are inconsistent with Christian principles, (e) creating a safe climate for ongoing discussion of the moral questions associated with abortion, (f) offering support and assistance to women who choose to complete crisis pregnancies, and (g) encouraging and assisting fathers to participate responsibly in the parenting of their children … [/quote']

Dederen, R. (2001, c2000). Vol. 12: Handbook of Seventh-Day Adventist Theology (electronic ed.). Logos Library System; Commentary Reference Series (747). Hagerstown, MD: Review and Herald Publishing Association.

This is where the major focus of our church is, these are the things that make a difference, these are the things that are a very practical help to people and these are the things I will stick to. Nic says "the entire church is guilty;" and I say he is lying.

[Dr. Shane]

you condemn the church's public position because the church has contributed not one penny to ministering to the position you say is one that they make publicly.

God has many arms in the universal Christian church. The Seventh-day Adventist church has its role. The Adventist church has taken a pro-life position but we use our financial resources for ministries that have a focus in other areas. Our God is a big God. He has the pro-life ministries covered. God is using His children in other denominations to take care of it. I do not condemn the church for that. God used other denominations to abolish slavery too. God has it under control.

As was mentioned here already, some of our ministries are overlapping. Adventist Youth and some Pathfinders groups provide guidance for our youth. Community Services often works with pregnant teens. However the great thrust of our work is in other ministries.

[Nic Samojluk]

If what you say above is applicable to the abortion debate then you have just validated Nic's position that the church is NOT PROLIFE.Since the church has no ministries to either stop women from aborting,minister to the spiritual consequences of those who choose to do so, or support those who choose not to,it may be concluded (according to your judgment)that the church's "guidelines" also constitute hot air. Oddly enough,Ginger Harwood-Hanks,hardly a prolife supporter,once made the same observation about the then newly released guidelines.

Amen, brother! I have hard evidence to confirm what you stated. If our church were pro-life, it would have accepted the many times I have tried to donate to the Adventist pro-life cause. I have sent financial contributions to my local church and to the General Conference, and each time I did receive the following answer: “The church does not have a pro-life program.” Do we need more evidence than this?

My preference would have been to donate to the pro-life cause through our Adventist channels, but the church is not interested in the prolife program. At the same time, the church does have a pro-killing program. Read the guidelines and watch what the church has done. Actions speak louder than words. Read the article Spectrum published two decades ago entitled “The Wisdom of Solomon.” It will enlighten you about the reason our church got into the elective abortion business.

[Overaged]

each time I did receive the following answer: “The church does not have a pro-life program.” Do we need more evidence than this?

[Nic Samojluk]

Not in this thread.

Here it is and I posted it on this thread:

Re: The Washington Post, Adventists & Abortion [Re: Shane] #426752 - Today at 12:07 AM

Shane said: “Just wondering, Nic. Do you volunteer at pregnancy crisis centers or other pro-life organizations?”

I say: No! I don’t believe in displaying pictures of aborted babies in public. I did suggest to pro-life leaders that at least, if they do this to place the pictures of live babies alongside those of aborted ones. Besides, if I did participate in said activities, I would not have the time to do the work the Lord laid on my heart. On top of this, I believe that women should counsel women who are about to abort their unborn babies—not men.

Nevertheless, I used to participate in the distribution of pro-life material from house to house when I was younger. I am almost 80 now and my feet are not as strong as they used to be.

Shane said: “Do you financial support pro-life organizations?”

I say: Yes, I do; but I am very selective about the organizations I contribute to. My preference would have been to do his through the Adventist church. I have tried this on several occasions without success.

I have sent my pro-life donations both to my local church and to the General Conference more than once. Each time my contributions were returned with the following message: “The church does not have a pro-life program.”

[Nic Samojluk]

God has (right) armed Adventists with a medical missionary ministry that it's hospitals are supposed to be an integral part of. We have ministries to help people recover from physical and spiritual maladies. Alcohol,drug, and tobacco use,proper eating habits,ect... but not a single program to offer to the 1 million+ women facing the most emotionally and spiritually distressing period of their lives? A prolife church without a single prolife outreach? Yet you justify their lack of involvement but are quick to criticize Nic for (allegedly)taking the exact same approach. What gives with that? At least Nic is willing to publically criticize the abortion industry.The church is mute.

Yes, brother, but the church has time and resources to scare the daylights of any Adventist willing to speak on behalf of the unborn if he uses the name Adventist in his mission.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

you condemn the church's public position because the church has contributed not one penny to ministering to the position you say is one that they make publicly.

God has many arms in the universal Christian church. The Seventh-day Adventist church has its role. The Adventist church has taken a pro-life position but we use our financial resources for ministries that have a focus in other areas. Our God is a big God. He has the pro-life ministries covered. God is using His children in other denominations to take care of it. I do not condemn the church for that. God used other denominations to abolish slavery too. God has it under control.

As was mentioned here already, some of our ministries are overlapping. Adventist Youth and some Pathfinders groups provide guidance for our youth. Community Services often works with pregnant teens. However the great thrust of our work is in other ministries.

But if Nic takes the same approach by talking a prolife position but not being actively involved in any hands on outreach because that aspect is being covered by others he cannot claim to be truely prolife? So again words (unclear as they may be)speak louder than actions for the church but not for the individual church member which makes up the church.

[doug yowell]

As was mentioned here already, some of our ministries are overlapping. Adventist Youth and some Pathfinders groups provide guidance for our youth. Community Services often works with pregnant teens. However the great thrust of our work is in other ministries.

It would be more accurate to say the entire thrust is in other ministries. How do you explain leadership's failure to financially and vocally support the only SDA CPC in the most populated and rich conference in the world? One of the aspects of the ministry of a CPC is to try to convince pregnant women to not abort their babies. They generally don't shrug their shoulders at the mention of rape,incest(which is rarely if ever the story)or unwantedness. Their purpose is to save human lives and try to support those who are in a bad way.Even if they chose to abort there is still counseling that is generally available for those who suffer from the emotional and spiritual fallout afterwards.Other smaller and less financially capable churches seem to be able to manage support of creation of a CPC,why our absence?

[Nic Samojluk]

Overage said: “It's too bad he doesn't give us actual evidence of what he says. Opinions are not evidence.”

I say: “No hay peor ciego que aquel que no quiere ver.” There’s is no worse blind than the one who refuses to see. The essence of my message is very simple. The church needs to repent of having failed a moral test. Back in 1970 our Castle Memorial Hospital [CMH] was already busy performing the so called “therapeutic abortions.”

Then the State of Hawaii legalized abortion and the non-Adventist physicians at said hospitals demanded the right to offer abortions on demand and threatened to take all their patients to other hospitals if their request were to be denied. The hospital management panicked and appealed to the Pacific Union and this was elevated to the North American Division.

The church responded with the church guidelines which forbid elective abortions, but granted our hospitals the right to draft their own guidelines. CMH did so and started offering elective abortions in violation of the church guidelines with full impunity and soon five other hospitals followed their example. My view is that the church should have said:

“Over our dead bodies. You have no permission to draft your own guidelines on abortion. Elective abortions and shedding of innocent blood is forbidden in the Bible. Let’s do what is right, and the Lord will provide for his church some way to survive. If you prefer to go your own way, you can do so, but then you will need to sever your official connection with the Adventist Church and become an independent ministry like Quiet Hour and 3ABN.”

Unfortunately the church failed to do what is right, but the Lord is merciful and ready to forgive if we are willing to confess our sin and rectify what went wrong. I am following in the steps of the Old Testament prophets and the example set by John the Baptist, Jesus and his disciples. Their message was simple: Repent and the Lord will bless your ministry.

The solid evidence for what I am saying is in the pages of “Ministry” and “Spectrum” magazines which I have cited many times. Here are the references in case you want to verify the accuracy of what I am alleging:

George Gainer, “Abortion: History of Adventist Guidelines” Ministry (Aug. 1991): 11-17.

Gerald R. Winslow, “Abortion Policies in Adventist Hospitals” Spectrum 19/4 (May 1989): 47-50.

George Gainer, ““The Wisdom of Solomon”?” Spectrum 19/4 (May 1989): 38-46.

Here is some more:

Quote: “When I first heard and then confirmed that the hospitals of the Adventist Health System in North America were performing hundreds of abortions each year, my response was stunned disbelief. I was certain that the hospitals and physicians involved must be acting outside General Conference policy guidelines. I was wrong. Criterion No. five of the 1971 guidelines states that abortion is acceptable when for some reason the requirements of functional human life demand the sacrifice of the lesser potential human life. Criterion No. fives some reason not only rendered superfluous the first four guidelines, and the principles on which they are based, but it tragically opened the door to elective abortion (i.e., on demand) in Adventist hospitals two years before the United States Supreme Court Roe v. Wade decision. The time has come to change the guidelines.”

Source: George Gainer, Letters Ministry (May 1988): 27.

[Nic Samojluk]

The last "Pro-life" activist I know of in our area was in **** where he shot an abortion doctor to death.

The man who killed the doctor was not pro-life, but rather pro-killing. His actions spoke louder than his words. He took justice in his own hands. Jesus said to Peter: put your sword away. Jesus would not use force even in self defense. Now place the wrong action of this pretended pro-lifer against the crimes of abortionists who have deprived 50 million innocent human beings of life. Can you see the contrast?

[Nic Samojluk]

Overage said: “Nic says "the entire church is guilty;" and I say he is lying.”

I say: If Nic is lying, then those who published what Nic is saying were lying publicly in the pages of “Ministry” and “Spectrum” magazines. Nic did not personally witness what took place at our Castle Memorial Hospital, nor the other five Adventist hospitals that did engage in elective abortions.

Nic per force had to rely on the testimony of those who had their research published in Adventist sources. Nobody I know has taken the trouble of negating what is contained in those sources. If you are privy to contrary evidence, please share it with us. The fact that you have chosen to attack my character is evidence that you are out of solid arguments to support your position.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged said: “This is not "evidence; it is just you saying so. Again; how does the public verify this for themselves - do we just "trust" you & hope for the best? And then call it "evidence? That kind of thing is useless for "evidence.”

I say: Not hard evidence? OK, here is harder evidence. It is a copy of the response I received from the church back in 2003 together with my voided check:

“Memorandum

GC Health Ministries Department

Date: June 16, 2003

To: Cynthia Henderson TRE

From: Shirley Rowley GC Health Ministries

Re: $ … Donation

In reference to your receipt inquiry concerning an SDA pro-life organization, Dr. Handysides stated that there are currently no pro-life organization. …

Thank you for passing on this information to Mr. Samojluk.”

*********

Here is a copy of the letter I received from the General Conference in 2009 with the voided check which the GC suggested I authorize them to use for other church projects like ADRA. I told them that I normally contribute to ADRA, and that this particular contribution was pro-life funds which should serve only for its intended purpose.

“Seventh-day Adventist Church

Health Ministries Department

October 7, 2009

Dear Mr. Samojluk

Thank you for your response to my letter. Enclosed, please find the check, marked with the word “VOID” on its face, as you requested.

I appreciate the expression of your beliefs and concerns, and respect you for them.

Allan R. Handysides, MB., Ch. B.

Director, GC Health Ministries”

[teresaq]

... The problem is that extremists don't want to allow abortion except for the most extreme cases.