The Washington Post, Adventists & Abortion

[Nic Samojluk]

Quote:

Quote: In 1992, the denomination issued these guidelines on abortion. The official position of the church is that abortion is allowed in "extraordinary circumstances."

The author of the article should have explained those circumstances by indicated Adventists do no believe in using abortion for birth control, convenience or choosing the sex of the child. That pretty much bans over 90% of abortions performed in America.

It would be elucidating to learn if those criteria are considered for the abortions performed in SDA hospitals.

The Adventist abortion guidelines are not prescriptive but rather suggestive. Each Adventist hospital is allowed to draft their own abortion guidelines. This is the reason for which our “Ministry” magazine reported a few years ago that five of our hospitals were offering elective abortions to their patients.

Abortions on demand are not condoned by our official guidelines, but since our medical institutions have free choice in this respect, some of our hospitals have taken advantage of this loophole. But frankly, the biggest loophole in our guidelines is the mental health exception, as I pointed out in my previous posting.

[Nic Samojluk]

I believe the MEMBERS of the SDA church are Pro-Life, the majority of them...but the ORGANIZATION, the LEADERS, the ones calling the shots, are Pro-Choice....

I believe you are right! My doctoral dissertation seemed to confirm this idea. I discovered that two thirds of those who registered their opinions on abortion between 1970 and 2006 in the major Adventist publications—especially in our “Ministry” magazine—were seemingly very supportive of the pro-life position, while those in leadership positions did favor the pro-choice one.

Of course, given the mental health exception of our guidelines, pro-choice is the same enchilada as pro-abortion for all practical purposes.

I have posted the result of my research online. Here is the link. If you are too busy and can't afford the time to read everything, then read the conclusions and the Addenda:

http://letsfocusonlife.com/?page_id=717

[doug yowell]

[Nic Samojluk]

Were any of those abortions on SDAs or the doctors SDA?

Excellent question! The answer is yes. I do know some of them personally, and some of them are adamant in their belief that the unborn have no right to life until their brain has developed. One of them stated his position as follows: “No brain—no person.”

A leading former Adventist religious liberty director recently affirmed that the unborn have no right to life until they have taken the first breath. His anti-life views were published in our Pacific Union Recorder.

When I submitted my response in defense of the unborn, I got the following response: “We do not engage in controversial issues.” My question is: Did the issue become controversial the moment I elected to speak in defense of the ones who cannot speak for themselves?

The best description of how we got involved in the lucrative business of abortion was written by George Gainer and published by the Spectrum magazine a couple of decades ago.

In it he relates how, when the state of Hawaii legalized abortion, half of the staff at our Castle Memorial Hospital—who were non-Adventists--demanded the right to offer abortion services to their patients and threatened to take the patients elsewhere if their wish was denied.

The management consulted with the leadership, and bingo, we moved away from our previous pro-life stance set by our Adventist pioneers.

[Nic Samojluk]

If,in fact,the Bible and EGW are silent on abortion then where do we get the truth about it's morality from???Kevin Paulson?Planned parenthood?Why not popular Christian leaders? And where does Kevin get his opinions from if the Bible and the SOP are silent????And why isn't he maintaining the same silence he's demanding of those with whom he disagrees? "Verrrry intarresting...........but stchupid!"

Ellen White did not use the word “abortion” in her writings but she did talk about almost murdering the unborn.

"If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them." [selected Messages, Vol. 2 (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1958), 429-430.]

If neglecting the care of a pregnant woman is almost murdering the unborn according to Ellen, can we conclude that Ellen was neutral regarding the actual killing of an unborn baby?

[doug yowell]

[Ellen White did not use the word “abortion” in her writings but she did talk about almost murdering the unborn.

"If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them." [selected Messages, Vol. 2 (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1958), 429-430.]

If neglecting the care of a pregnant woman is almost murdering the unborn according to Ellen, can we conclude that Ellen was neutral regarding the actual killing of an unborn baby?

GP,Nic. This quote also shoots down Paulson's claim that when EGW spoke of the earliest moments of our children,she only referred to their birth and not their conception.

[Nic Samojluk]

From what I understand, our hospitals have autonomy. The General Conference does not dictate how each hospital is operated throughout the world. I suspect that some Adventist hospitals take a more liberal approach to abortion than others do.

If our Adventists hospitals have autonomy and the GC does not dictate nor monitor how each hospital is operated, then how come the GC did close down Mark Price’s personal web page? Should not the church first monitor what their own medical institutions are doing before meddling in the activities of independent ministries?

The church looks the other way while some of our own institutions offer abortions services in violation of the official guidelines, but when Mark Price decided to do something to save innocent babies from a sure death, he got clobbered in the head by the church he is sending his tithes and offering to.

[Nic Samojluk]

The problem is that not every Adventist (clergy or lay) is convinced that the Bible speaks clearly about abortion; and neither does EGW. Contrary to what someone may have claimed in the past, we have no pope that can make an arbitrary decision regarding right and wrong.

Ellen White did talk about almost murdering the unborn. Read the quotaion I posted regarding this above.

[Nic Samojluk]

The adventist hospital where I am working is not supporting abortion. Even though there are many non SDA doctors, they do not perform abortion in our hospital. The hospital sets up their own policy, its depending on who is the leader. Sadly to say, not all Adventist leader are converted

Is your hospital located in the U.S. or elsewhere. I did receive an email from a friend of mine who lives in Germany who told me that when he served the church in Africa, Europe and South America, the hospitals under his supervision were not allowed to perform abortions.

I also read a comment on another forum where a lady stated that, as far as she understands, in her country in Africa Adventist hospitals are not permitted to perform abortions. This may suggest that this moral anomaly might be limited to the North American continent.

[Nic Samojluk]

If the originator of the page called SDA headquarters and asked permission to use the SDA name, "We'd say absolutely [yes]," he added.

This can be tested. I have a web page similar to the one Mark Price had on Facebook. I had named it "Adventist Pro-life Center." When I got alerted to what happened to Mark's site, I changed the name of my web page to "Seven Days Pro-life Center" because I didn't want my site to be swallowed by a black hole like his.

I will write to the church headquarters and ask permission to reinstate the original name of my page containing the term "Adventist" in it. I hope they will honor their word!

[Stan]

Where does "Mark" have his membership at?

[Stan]

Does that mean that I have to take back all the nice things I was thinking about you?

That plus 500 lines on the blackboard.

[Dr. Shane]

I believe that you are wrong on this. The “Adventist Guidelines on Abortion” allow for the mental health exception.

Yes, you are mistaken. I do forgive you. Click on the link below.

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

6% of abortions are performed for health reasons. Only 3% are actually due to the mothers health. The other 3% is due to the baby's health.

Once again Nic, the church is right and you are wrong.

[Woody]

Woody likes and agrees.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

If,in fact,the Bible and EGW are silent on abortion then where do we get the truth about it's morality from???Kevin Paulson?Planned parenthood?Why not popular Christian leaders? And where does Kevin get his opinions from if the Bible and the SOP are silent????And why isn't he maintaining the same silence he's demanding of those with whom he disagrees? "Verrrry intarresting...........but stchupid!"

Ellen White did not use the word “abortion” in her writings but she did talk about almost murdering the unborn.

"If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he might better understand his obligations and responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain means to leave for them." [selected Messages, Vol. 2 (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1958), 429-430.]

If neglecting the care of a pregnant woman is almost murdering the unborn according to Ellen, can we conclude that Ellen was neutral regarding the actual killing of an unborn baby?

Hmmmmm. Interesting quote!!! Thanks!

[Dr. Shane]

I think the church's guidelines on abortion are very good. I think it is unfortunate that not all Adventist hospitals follow them. That is something I would like to see change. I think the attitude that the organized church, as a whole, is somehow in apostasy because of this is a bit blown out of proportion.

I would support a website that was simply a petition asking that at the next General Conference our church's abortion guidelines become our church's official position on abortion and that our hospitals and physicians be instructed to abide by it. Such a web site could have a place for a member to put their name and the name and city of the church where their membership is. If it was done in English, French and Spanish it would probably get thousands of names within a short time.

[Tammy]

That is such an EXCELLENT quote from Inspiration, Nic!

Quote:

If the father would become acquainted with physical law, he would better understand his obligations and his responsibilities. He would see that he had been guilty of almost murdering his children, by suffering so many burdens to come upon the mother, compelling her to labor beyond her strength before their birth, in order to obtain money to leave for them. They nurse these children through their suffering life, and often lay them prematurely in the grave, little realizing that their wrong course has brought the sure result. How much better to shield the mother of his children from wearing labor and mental anxiety, and let the children inherit good constitutions, and give them an opportunity to battle their way through life, not relying upon their father's property, but upon their own energetic strength! The experience thus obtained would be of more worth to them than houses and lands purchased at the expense of the health of mother and children. {RH, July 18, 1899 par. 5}

Abortion is no less than murder. I often wonder why this is so easy for so many Protestants from other denominations to see this and yet, so many Adventists are so blind when it comes to this subject? It has to be because...they are listening to their leaders and

Quote:

O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. Isaiah 3:12.

There isn't any other explanation for this strange behaviour....

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

.....asking that at the next General Conference our church's abortion guidelines become our church's official position on abortion and that our hospitals and physicians be instructed to abide by it.

And if they don't???

Then we remember that we belong to a "we" organization and not a "me" organization. Making changes means getting involved. If the organization doesn't see an issue as we do personally, we humble our hearts and accept it. That is what belonging to an organization means. We must trust that God will do His will. And if we do not get the result we desire, perhaps His will was not what we thought it was.

[Woody]

The point is that we don't have to be dogmatic about abortion. Abortion can save lives. Each person needs to weigh the evidence and make a decision for their situation.

[doug yowell]

The point is that we don't have to be dogmatic about abortion. Abortion can save lives. Each person needs to weigh the evidence and make a decision for their situation.

It may be true that abortion may occasionally save a life, but stealing may also occasionally save a life.Do we then grant each individual the right to weigh the evidence and make that decision for themselves? Is criminalizing the 99% of robbery cases dogmatic? Is the church who is supposed to speak to the conscience of the world now so confused that is should say nothing? Has anyone argued that the abortion that must take a life in order to save a life should be condemned?

[doug yowell]

Then we remember that we belong to a "we" organization and not a "me" organization. Making changes means getting involved. If the organization doesn't see an issue as we do personally, we humble our hearts and accept it. That is what belonging to an organization means. We must trust that God will do His will. And if we do not get the result we desire, perhaps His will was not what we thought it was.

Or perhaps our will was in harmony with God's will and we may be required to suffer the consequences of the organization's disobedience. The Bible is full of such examples. Should we then meekly,without complaint accept defeat? In this particular case the defenders of the church's open door policy unanimously cite the Bible's silence on the issue while it's opponents point to It's directives. Do we now see silence as permission to make our own decisions as to the morality of killing our own unborn children?

[Dr. Shane]

Should we then meekly,without complaint accept defeat?

It is called being humble. Each individual is a small part of the whole. We work together to carry the Three Angels' Message to the ends of the Earth.

Each of us is a sinner. Am I wrong? None of us is perfect. So why should we believe that our understanding of the issue is right and those that disagree with us are wrong? What makes you so sure that you might not be deceived and others could possibly be right? Pride. Pride prevents a man from considering the idea that he may actually be wrong.

So what is the solution? The solution is putting it in God's hands and accepting the outcome. How do we do that? We get the issue brought before the General Conference, pray for God to work through them, and accept the outcome.

The church is a "we" organization, not a "me" organization.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Should we then meekly,without complaint accept defeat?

It is called being humble. Each individual is a small part of the whole. We work together to carry the Three Angels' Message to the ends of the Earth.

Each of us is a sinner. Am I wrong? None of us is perfect. So why should we believe that our understanding of the issue is right and those that disagree with us are wrong? What makes you so sure that you might not be deceived and others could possibly be right? Pride. Pride prevents a man from considering the idea that he may actually be wrong.

Are you sure you want to go with that explanation,Shane? If we apply that standard to the Seventh-day Adventist Church and all it's members, what does it say about the reason for their existence? And yes,pride prevents a person from considering the possibility of being wrong but pride does not forbid the possibility of their being right.If no one can possibly understand the Bible correctly then what's the point of claiming to be a Christian. And what principle does the church stand on?

[doug yowell]

The church is a "we" organization, not a "me" organization.

So we may conclude that we would include me and not simply they.Indicating that when leadership makes a bad decision it affects the me as well as the thee,the overall we.(Rom.12)

[Dr. Shane]

The mission of the church is to carry the Three Angels' Message to the end of the Earth. So let's bear that in mind.

The mission of the church was not to emancipate the slaves. God did call sheep from other folds to do that and Adventists cooperated with that effort but it was never at the forefront of our work.

The mission of the church was never to prohibit the sale of alcoholic beverages. God did call sheep from other folds to do that and Adventists cooperated with that effort but it was never at the forefront of our work.

The mission of our church is not to stop abortion from happening. God has called sheep from other folds to do that and the issue at hand is in what way are Adventists to cooperate with that effort.

The Adventist church is not to give up its primary mission in order to play politics in a world that is about to perish.

So it is not an issue of whether or not abortion is a sin. The church has set forth guidelines that indicate that over 90% of abortions performed in the US today are considered sin by the church. That is not a doctrine being debated.

The issue is to what extent does the church force its hospitals and doctors to comply with its guidelines

That is what should be taken to the General Conference. And whatever the GC decides in open session should be accepted by the membership. Not "my" way but "our" way. Let's get self out of the way and trust that God can speak through the world-wide church in open session.