Dr. Shane Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 your opinion has little weight unless you provide contrary evidence supported by credible data. Currently my opinion is right in line with the church's guidelines. So to say my opinion has little weight is to say the church guidelines have little weight. Of course, if they were added to the church manual, they would carry more weight. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Shane said: “No. I am pro-life. However there are circumstances where the believer must be free to prayerfully decide whether or not to abort without seeking approval from the pope or Nic Samojluk first.” Nic responds: You remind of the following anecdote. A young Adventist couple were dating and were vey much in love. They knew that having sex prior to marriage was wrong, but the temptation was great. So this is what they did: They knelt down and prayed asking God for guidance. Since the Lord did not provide any additional guidance, they went ahead and had sex. Women tempted to kill their own child need not to pray for additional guidance. The Lord has already provided clear guidance regarding the shedding of innocent blood. If my views are extreme, then God’s Commandments are extreme. Go and argue with the One who wrote those rules on stone. Shane said: “I do believe there are situations involving a mother's health or severe birth defects where mothers need to be free to abort without having Nic Samojluk judge and condemn them.” Nic responds: There will be no need for anyone to condemn them. Their own conscience and the Bible will take care of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Shane said: “Notice the underlined sentence. That was the same calling of Ellen White. So please clarify. Do you consider yourself on the same level as Ellen White or are you just as likely to be mistaken as me and the other mortals alive today?” Nic responds: I have already denied being a prophet and stated that I am a midget when compared with Ellen White. If you want a true statement about my role and my character, ask God. He is the only one who can read the most hidden traits of our character. Let me suggest the following: Just ignore everything I have stated and go to the Bible and the writings of inspired people. There you will find a sure guide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 If my views are extreme, then God’s Commandments are extreme. So you do put yourself in the place of a prophet or at least on the same level as a Catholic priest. Isn't that right? You believe that we ignorant folks need you to tell us what the Commandments mean. I don't see the word abortion show up in the Commandments. What I see is the word murder. Jesus clarified this by saying that murder springs from hatred. Nic Samojluk says that if a woman having health problems aborts her child she is killing it in the same sense as one man murders another. That is an extreme position. The pope may agree with you but I doubt most Adventists do. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk your opinion has little weight unless you provide contrary evidence supported by credible data. Currently my opinion is right in line with the church's guidelines. So to say my opinion has little weight is to say the church guidelines have little weight. Of course, if they were added to the church manual, they would carry more weight. I think Nic meant to say "little credibility" though lots of weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 You have to look at the internals of the study Nic. The study is neither extreme nor balanced. It is just data. According to the internals of the study, 3% of abortions were performed because "mother has health problems" and another 3% were performed because "possible fetal health problems". The Adventist guidelines that you so detest would allow the believer to make a prayerful decision in those cases. You would not. The summary provided by the author gives a better answer to the question we are dealing with, which you have apparently chosen to ignore. Whatever you find in the report should not contradict what was presented in the summary. Overlooking the content of the summary is bad policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Currently my opinion is right in line with the church's guidelines. So to say my opinion has little weight is to say the church guidelines have little weight. Of course, if they were added to the church manual, they would carry more weight. You hit the nail right on its head: “the church guidelines have little weight” when compared with what the Lord himself wrote on tables of stone. The Bible has forbidden adding to God’s Word anything which tends to contradict what is clearly stated in Scripture. We have no need for guidelines which dilute the true meaning of what the Lord has written with his own finger. The Commandment forbids the shedding of innocent blood. Providing a long list of exceptions to what the Lord has forbidden is equivalent to setting ourselves above the authority of the Most High. We have no right to correct what the Lord has clearly stated in Holy Writ! The guidelines are superfluous and contrary to the teachings of Scripture. The sooner we replace them with the clear teaching of the Bible the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 [color:#3366FF]Shane said: “So you do put yourself in the place of a prophet or at least on the same level as a Catholic priest. Isn't that right?” Nic responds: Wrong! I have denied this two times already. Did you miss that? Remember the three strikes law. If you miss one more time, you are out of the game. Shane said: “I don't see the word abortion show up in the Commandments. What I see is the word murder.” Nic responds: I agree. Hebrew experts tell us that the correct translation of the Sixth Commandment is “You shall not murder,” and the dictionary definition of murder is killing an innocent human being. Do you need more than that? Are the unborn human beings or not? Are they innocents or not? If they do not deserve to be classified among the innocent human beings then nobody qualifies. Jesus stated that our eternal destiny will be determined by how we treat “the least of these.” I know of no other group of human beings more deserving of the “the least of these” label than the unborn! Do you? Quote: New International Version (©1984) "You shall not murder. New Living Translation (©2007) "You must not murder. English Standard Version (©2001) “You shall not murder. New American Standard Bible (©1995) "You shall not murder. GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) "Never murder. Shane said: “Jesus clarified this by saying that murder springs from hatred.” Nic responds: Murder may also result from fear, insecurity, neglect, lack of faith, and the uncontrolled appetite for power. Shane said: “Nic Samojluk says that if a woman having health problems aborts her child she is killing it in the same sense as one man murders another.” Nic responds: That is not what Nic says. That is the mischaracterization and misrepresentation of what Nic has said. If I have said that, please provide the evidence! We have manslaughter, firs degree murder and so on. The Lord does consider the motivation which moves people to sin. Killing the innocent is always wrong, unless there is no other way to save the life of the pregnant woman, but some abortions are less sinful than others. Some choose abortion to protect their lifestyle, others for fear and a lack of faith in God’s providential power to transform evil into a blessing. Shane said: “That is an extreme position.” Nic responds: I agree. Your false characterization of my views is rather extreme. You need to control you desire to paint a wrong picture of what my true position is. Shane said: “The pope may agree with you but I doubt most Adventists do.” Nic responds:We don’t know what most Adventists think. One good way of finding out is to submit those guidelines to the General Conference in session. This must be preceded by open discussion of the issue, something that has been lacking and routinely discouraged by the Adventist leadership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 We don’t know what most Adventists think. One good way of finding out is to submit those guidelines to the General Conference in session. This must be preceded by open discussion of the issue, something that has been lacking and routinely discouraged by the Adventist leadership. Most Adventists become very squimesh when the subject comes up.Actually thinking in any detail about it in the terms of SDA involvment presents them with the distinct probability of pain,conflict, and division.Church leaders are no different and tend to cater to those same fears.No pain, much gain is the mantra.So the fear of God is replaced by the fear of a plethora of other concerns.The current statement was specifically designed to distance ourselves from the conservative Christian community while not openly embracing the brazen promotion of abortion rights found in the liberal community. The pragmatic result being that we now have wording that may be interpreted as prolife and actions that cannot be mistaken as such.Most Adventists assume that the guidelines are official policy and that the church is enforcing them in our medical institutions. If leadership can continue to enforce this notion there is no need for further discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 The Lord does consider the motivation which moves people to sin. That sounds more like opinion of Nic than Word of God. The church is right, Nic. You are wrong. There is no conspiracy. The church isn't perfect as we live in a sinful world and the church is made up of sinners - one of which is named Nic Samojluk. Your voice is one of many in the church and is no more important than others. This is a "we" church, not a "me" church. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 You hit the nail right on its head: “the church guidelines have little weight” when compared with what the Lord himself wrote on tables of stone. Since the Lord didn't write anything about abortion on stone, I guess we have to go with the position of the church. We live in a sinful world. Because of sin, mothers get sick during pregnancy. Because of sin, some babies have severe birth defects. Because of sin, some women become pregnant due to rape or incest. We cannot remove sin from the equation. Our church has taken the position that the pregnant woman in many circumstances needs to have the liberty to decide what is best for her circumstance and that as members we should not second guess and judge her for her decision. In cases of birth control, gender selection and convenience, Adventist women and doctors are not to participate in abortion. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk The Lord does consider the motivation which moves people to sin. That sounds more like opinion of Nic than Word of God. I misread Nic's statement. I read "The Lord does not consider the motivation which moves people to sin." My bad. My response was not appropriate. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Shane said: “That sounds more like opinion of Nic than Word of God.” Nic responds: Saul persecuted the church thinking that he was performing a great service for God. Do you think that his sin of ignorance could be compared on an equal basis as that of Saul the King of the Old Testament when he persecuted David, his loyal servant? Shane said: “The church is right, Nic. You are wrong.” Nic responds: If the church is right on the issue of abortion, then the Bible is wrong in condemning murder in Exodus 20:13 and in Leviticus 24:17] Quote: “You shall not murder.” Quote: “If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death.” Shane said: “The church isn't perfect as we live in a sinful world and the church is made up of sinners - one of which is named Nic Samojluk.” Nic responds: I haven’t claimed perfection yet! Shane said: “Your voice is one of many in the church and is no more important than others.” Shane said: I haven’t denied this! Nevertheless, the church has failed in the past. Nazi Germany and Rwanda are good examples where the Adventist church did fail the moral test. The current genocide in which our church has been actively participating is a new example where our church has failed again. All religious movements have so far failed in the past at a time of serious crisis, and our church is no exception. Look at what happened to the Catholic church and to all the reform movements, both Catholic and Protestants, which preceded our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Shane said: “Since the Lord didn't write anything about abortion on stone, I guess we have to go with the position of the church.” Nic responds: You are right! Neither does the Bible say anything about tobacco, marihuana, crack cocaine, and other drug additions. Likewise, the Bible contains no explicit condemnation of polygamy, slavery, and genocide? Does this mean that our church should endorse all these? Scripture does condemn both endangering the life of our neighbor and taking the life of an innocent human being. A. "You shall not endanger the life of your neighbor.” [Lev. 19:16] B. “If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death.” [Lev. 24:17] So I ask: Who is my neighbor? Is an unborn baby a neighbor for the pregnant woman? How close a human being needs to be to be considered a woman’s neighbor? Is an unborn baby a human being or not? If it is not, then what is it? Shane said: “Because of sin, some babies have severe birth defects” Nic responds: Do those babies deserve to be helped or to be killed? Many years ago our cat was the victim of a shooting and we found him dying. We nursed him back to life. There are many people in the world who were born defective and are living today a useful life. Did you watch a man without arms or legs preaching at the Crystal Cathedral, or the man who played the guitar with his feet for John Paul II in Mexico? These individuals were lucky their mothers landed in Catholic hospitals instead of one operated by Adventists. If Jesus were to come again as a baby, a modern Mary would have to avoid Adventist medical institutions. Shane said: “Because of sin, some women become pregnant due to rape or incest.” Nic responds: Does it make sense to let the rapist live but execute the innocent baby who has done no wrong? Is this the kind of justice our church should be promoting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Does it make sense to let the rapist live but execute the innocent baby who has done no wrong? Is this the kind of justice our church should be promoting? But you are not an extremist. Right? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 But you are not an extremist. Right? Would you characterize the biblical position of the Bible as extreme? Is what the Lord wrote with his own finger extreme? Do we have the right to modify what God has written on stone? Will the Lord bless those who water down one of God’s Commandments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk Does it make sense to let the rapist live but execute the innocent baby who has done no wrong? Is this the kind of justice our church should be promoting? But you are not an extremist. Right? Why do you keep avoiding the answer to Nic's question,Shane? Is it just to kill the innocent baby in order to compensate for the wrong perpetrated on the mother? Is this God's way of balancing the books? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 That is a decision I am not willing to make for another. Most pro-life groups support legal abortion in cases of rape, incest and to save the mother's life. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 That is a decision I am not willing to make for another. You're still avoiding the question.If you don't know the answer(like those who avoided Jesus inquiry about the authority of John the Baptist)then why so quick to condemn someone who has an answer(right or wrong)?Is killing the human, who was conceived as a result of rape, in God's plan for promoting justice in a sinful world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Most pro-life groups support legal abortion in cases of rape, incest and to save the mother's life.To save the mother's life,yes,unanimous.I doubt there's enough evidence to substantiate majority support for rape and incest. And support should not be confused with acceptance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 That is a decision I am not willing to make for another. Most pro-life groups support legal abortion in cases of rape, incest and to save the mother's life. Justice demands that we punish the criminal, which in this case is the rapist. We have one guilty criminal and two victims, the woman who had been violated against her will and the innocent baby who has done no wrong. What does society do and the church condone: That we punish one of the victim and let the guilty live. Do you consider this to be an example of fairness and equity? Isn’t this a terrible distortion of justice which demands equal treatment under the law? Is this the kind of new gospel we Adventist preach to the world? How much is our testimony worth if we preach and practice inequity and unfairness? Isn’t the blood of the victims claiming for justice as the Bible states in the first and the last book of the Bible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 That is a decision I am not willing to make for another. Most pro-life groups support legal abortion in cases of rape, incest and to save the mother's life. Yes, and Jan Paulsen did publicly claim that the Adventist church was pro-life. Is this claim credible, given the fact that our guidelines contain almost an exact copy of the Roe v Wade decision which legalized abortion? Those pushing for abortion have always demanded that the health of the woman should be a good reason for killing an innocent unborn baby, and our guidelines do agree with this liberal policy. The “Doe v Bolton” court ruling clarified that the mental health is included in the meaning of the “health” exception. This means that theoretically elective abortions are legal all the way through the nine months of pregnancy. Can we claim with a straight face that that the Adventist church is pro-life? If not, why should I believe that those who claim to be pro-life, but condone the killing of innocent human beings except when the life of the woman is at great danger are pro-life? Claiming to be pro-life is not the same as being pro-life. Our church has claimed to be pro-life, but her teaching and her practice deny this claim! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 has anyone shown evidence that Adventist Hospitals are in the abortion business? I mean 2011 not 1950 or 1970 Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 has anyone shown evidence that Adventist Hospitals are in the abortion business? I mean 2011 not 1950 or 1970 That is a reasonable question. Obviously they did so openly until the (suggested)"guidelines". Would concrete evidence change the way we defend or attack the church's position? I took from the Washington Post article that the author verified that WAH and Shady Grove were still doing them. Maybe I read too much into her conclusions or misread her sources.So far there have been NO (that's ZERO)denials from either of the hospitals (or any others)or the GC but plenty of "credible" accusers.My guess is that the church knows that elective abortions are being done in SDA institutions but are trying to take the "don't ask,don't tell" approach to the guidelines. I hope I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Samojluk Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 has anyone shown evidence that Adventist Hospitals are in the abortion business? I mean 2011 not 1950 or 1970 We have the testimony of several individuals who work or have worked in Adventist hospitals. A month or so ago I asked a physician whom I have known for decades. She told me the following: “Catholic hospitals refuse to perform abortions but keep sending their patients to our hospitals.” I wrote a letter to our Washington Adventist Hospital a year ago asking whether they are still offering abortion services to their patients, I am still waiting for a response. A few weeks ago I sent an email to Dr. Gerald Winslow, the alleged architect of our guidelines on abortion, asking the same question. No response. He could be on vacation, but I doubt that such is the case. Two years ago I wrote to him regarding the abortion issue and he did not respond. There seems to exist a conspiracy of silence on the subject. I have also written to the former president of the General Conference and the current one. No response. I have the following question for you: Do you think that if our hospitals have ceased to perform abortion that they would be so reticent about responding to inquiries about this topic? Common sense tells me that they would be eager to announce the news to the world that the Adventists no longer offer abortion services to their patients. Wouldn’t you agree? Suppose we reverse the challenge and ask: “Does anyone have credible evidence that our Adventist hospitals no longer perform abortions”? Here is what I got from the Internet: Quote: “When I called the hospitals and clinics the operator or even administrator I was transferred to each answered this question with a resounding no. But call the headquarters and cut through a lot of jargon and jive and the answer is yes, SDA facilities and doctors do perform abortions.” http://en.allexperts.com/q/Seventh-Day-Adventists-2318/abortions-SDA-hospitals.htm [5/17/2007] Quote: Jun 18, 2010 - 10:46PM #5 Fact: You can get an abortion at many SDA hospitals with no problem. Fact: Approximately 10% of the employees at SDA hospitals are SDA's. Fact: Abortion for any reason is permitted in SDA hospitals. Fact: Abortion can not be supported by the bible. Fact: Abortion is murder of inocent human life. Fact: I am and SDA and ashamed of the position of many of my churches' leaders in this area. Fact: I believe in the official teachings of the SDA church and will , with God's grace, always remain an SDA. God will judge the people who are misguided who came up with the "guidelines" for abortion. http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread...tion_Supporters Quote: Jun 19, 2010 - 10:58PM I don't know of all the SDA hospitals doing abortions but I know that the 2 closest to me are: Shady Grove Hospital and Washington Adventist Hospital http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread...tion_Supporters Quote: Wednesday, Oct. 14, 2009 Adventist HealthCare also runs a primary-care clinic for the uninsured in Shady Grove Adventist Hospital's Germantown emergency center. The clinic now has a pre- and post-natal department for uninsured patients that provides family planning, according to Washington Adventist Hospital's spokeswoman Lydia Parris. Adventist HealthCare is owned by the Seventh Day Adventist Church, which has no religious policies governing health care. Adventist hospitals perform abortions and provide a full range of reproductive care, Parris said. http://www.gazette.net/stories/10142009/silvnew182914_32533.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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