How Will 19th Century History Repeat?

[Pastor_Chick]

How Will 19th Century History Repeat?

About the time the Seventh-day Adventist church was forming, another religious society was taking shape. The name--National Reform Association (NRA; aka "National Reform Movement").

What were the objectives of the NRA? The following quotes will help to answer that question while setting the historical background.

Quote:

In 1888 Senator H. W. Blair of New Hampshire introduced a Sunday bill into the United States Congress enforcing Sunday in all federal territories as a “day of worship”; also a religious education amendment to the Constitution. Both were supported by the National Reform Association, organized in 1863 with the purpose of amending the Constitution of the United States so as to declare the country “a Christian nation” and to place “all Christian laws, institutions, and usages, on an undeniable legal basis in the fundamental laws of the land.” (quoted in American Sentinel 1:1, January 1886)

Quote:

THE SPECIAL OBJECT OF THE ‘NATIONAL REFORM ASSOCIATION’ IS TO PROCURE A RELIGIOUS AMENDMENT TO THE NATIONAL CONSTITUTION THAT THE SUNDAY MAY BE RESCUED FROM DESECRATION AND UNIVERSALLY ENFORCED. [...] THIS [two-horned] BEAST NOT ONLY COMPELS THE EARTH AND ITS INHABITANTS TO WORSHIP THE FIRST BEAST, AS ABOVE NOTICED, BUT IT CAUSES THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH TO MAKE AN IMAGE TO THE FIRST BEAST. THIS CAN BE DONE ONLY BY A UNION OF CHURCH AND STATE, OR BY SO SUBORDINATING THE CIVIL TO THE ECCLESIASTICAL POWER THAT THE STATE WILL BE COMPELLED TO ENFORCE THE TENETS AND REQUIREMENTS OF THE CHURCH. A RELIGIOUS AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES WOULD SPEEDILY INSURE THIS RESULT. (4SP 503, 504; Appendix)

Quote:

The Sunday law issue, now becoming prominent because of the Blair Sunday bill [*] was discussed. Plans were laid for a mass move in securing signatures opposing such legislation by the Congress of the United States. [*FOR MANY YEARS SUNDAY LEGISLATION HAD BEEN ON THE STATUTE BOOKS OF SEVERAL STATES. EARLY IN 1888, SENATOR H. W. BLAIR, OF NEW HAMPSHIRE, INTRODUCED INTO THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS A BILL THAT, IF PASSED, WOULD HAVE ENFORCED IN ALL FEDERAL TERRITORIES THE OBSERVANCE OF SUNDAY AS A DAY OF WORSHIP. AN AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION TO THAT EFFECT HAD ALSO BEEN PROPOSED. FOR SEVERAL YEARS NATIONAL SUNDAY LEGISLATION THREATENED RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN THE UNITED STATES.] (3BIO 376, 377)

Quote:

[The National Reform Association was] ORIGINATED IN A CONFERENCE REPRESENTING "ELEVEN DIFFERENT DENOMINATIONS OF CHRISTIANS FROM SEVEN OF THE STATES OF THE UNION." IT NOW HAS THE SUPPORT OF PROMINENT MEN FROM "ALL BRANCHES OF THE CHURCH," OF THE NATIONAL WOMAN'S CHRISTIAN TEMPERANCE UNION, AND THE PROHIBITION PARTY. IT PROPOSES TO HAVE OUR NATIONAL CONSTITUTION AMENDED, "IN ORDER TO CONSTITUTE A CHRISTIAN GOVERNMENT," "ACKNOWLEDGING ALMIGHTY GOD AS THE SOURCE OF ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER IN CIVIL GOVERNMENT, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AS THE RULER AMONG THE NATIONS, HIS REVEALED WILL AS THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND;" AND SO PLACING "ALL CHRISTIAN LAWS, INSTITUTIONS, AND USAGES OF OUR GOVERNMENT ON AN UNDENIABLE LEGAL BASIS IN THE FUNDAMENTAL LAW OF THE LAND."

ONE OF ITS PROPOSITIONS, ANNOUNCED BY DAVID GREGG, D. D., PASTOR PARK STREET CHURCH, BOSTON, IS THAT THE STATE HAS "THE RIGHT TO COMMAND THE CONSCIENCES OF MEN."

ANOTHER, ANNOUNCED BY THE CHRISTIAN STATESMAN, IS THAT GOVERNMENT MUST "ENFORCE UPON ALL THAT COME AMONG US THE LAWS OF CHRISTIAN MORALITY."

ANOTHER, ANNOUNCED BY THE REV. E. B. GRAHAM, IS THAT "IF THE OPPONENTS OF THE BIBLE DO NOT LIKE OUR GOVERNMENT AND ITS CHRISTIAN FEATURES, LET THEM GO TO SOME WILD, DESOLATE LAND; AND, IN THE NAME OF THE DEVIL, AND FOR THE SAKE OF THE DEVIL, SUBDUE IT, AND SET UP A GOVERNMENT OF THEIR OWN ON INFIDEL AND ATHEISTIC IDEAS, AND THEN, IF THEY CAN STAND IT, STAY THERE TILL THEY DIE."

ANOTHER, ANNOUNCED BY JONATHAN EDWARDS, D. D., IS THAT JEWS, AND ALL CHRISTIANS WHO KEEP THE SEVENTH DAY, ARE TO BE CLASSED AS ATHEISTS, AND "MUST BE TREATED, AS FOR THIS [NATIONAL REFORM] QUESTION, ONE PARTY" WITH ATHEISTS, WHO "CANNOT DWELL TOGETHER ON THE SAME CONTINENT" WITH THE NATIONAL REFORM CHRISTIANITY. [...] NOW A MAN MADE THEOCRACY IS ONLY A SCHEME OF GOVERNMENT WHICH PUTS MAN IN THE PLACE OF GOD. THAT IS PRECISELY THE THEORY UPON WHICH THE PAPACY WAS BUILT, AND THAT IS JUST WHAT THE PAPACY IS. THE NATIONAL REFORM THEORY IS IDENTICAL WITH THAT OF THE PAPACY; THEREFORE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE NATIONAL REFORM THEORY IN THIS GOVERNMENT WILL BE BUT THE SETTING UP OF A LIVING IMAGE OF THE PAPACY. ADVOCATING, AS THESE PARTIES ARE, THE PAPAL THEORY, IT IS NOT TO BE WONDERED AT THAT THEY ARE ANXIOUS TO SECURE THE CO-OPERATION OF THE PAPACY IN CARRYING THEIR SCHEME TO SUCCESS. THE CHRISTIAN STATESMAN IS THE OFFICIAL ORGAN OF THE NATIONAL REFORM ASSOCIATION, AND IN AN EDITORIAL, DECEMBER 11, 1884, THAT PAPER SAID:

"WE CORDIALLY, GLADLY, RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT IN THE SOUTH AMERICAN REPUBLICS, AND IN FRANCE AND OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, THE ROMAN CATHOLICS ARE THE RECOGNIZED ADVOCATES OF NATIONAL CHRISTIANITY, AND STAND OPPOSED TO ALL THE PROPOSALS OF SECULARISM. . . . WHENEVER THEY ARE WILLING TO CO-OPERATE IN RESISTING THE PROGRESS OF POLITICAL ATHEISM, WE WILL GLADLY JOIN HANDS WITH THEM. IN A WORLD'S CONFERENCE FOR THE PROMOTION OF NATIONAL CHRISTIANITY--WHICH OUGHT TO BE HELD AT NO DISTANT DAY--MANY COUNTRIES COULD BE REPRESENTED ONLY BY ROMAN CATHOLICS."

AND IN THAT SAME PAPER, AUGUST 31, 1881, REV. SYLVESTER SCOVIL SAID:

"THIS COMMON INTEREST ["OF ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE IN THE SABBATH"--SUNDAY] OUGHT BOTH TO STRENGTHEN OUR DETERMINATION TO WORK, AND OUR READINESS TO CO-OPERATE IN EVERY WAY WITH OUR ROMAN CATHOLIC FELLOW-CITIZENS. WE MAY BE SUBJECTED TO SOME REBUFFS IN OUR FIRST PROFFERS, AND THE TIME IS NOT YET COME WHEN THE ROMAN CHURCH WILL CONSENT TO STRIKE HANDS WITH OTHER CHURCHES--AS SUCH; BUT THE TIME HAS COME TO MAKE REPEATED ADVANCES, AND GLADLY TO ACCEPT CO-OPERATION IN ANY FORM IN WHICH THEY MAY BE WILLING TO EXHIBIT IT. IT IS ONE OF THE NECESSITIES OF THE SITUATION. THE NEXUS BETWEEN THE TWO GREAT DIVISIONS OF CHRISTIANITY ON QUESTIONS OF MORAL LEGISLATION IS A THING WORTHY THE CONSIDERATION OF OUR BEST MINDS AND OUR MEN OF LARGEST EXPERIENCE IN SUCH AFFAIRS."

IN PERFECT ACCORD WITH THIS IS THE ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII., 1885, WHICH DIRECTS THAT "ALL CATHOLICS SHOULD DO ALL IN THEIR POWER TO CAUSE THE CONSTITUTIONS OF STATES, AND LEGISLATION, TO BE MODELED ON THE PRINCIPLES OF THE TRUE CHURCH, AND ALL CATHOLIC WRITERS AND JOURNALISTS SHOULD NEVER LOSE SIGHT, FOR AN INSTANT, FROM THE VIEW OF THE ABOVE PRESCRIPTIONS."

THEREFORE AS THE PURPOSE OF THE NATIONAL REFORM ASSOCIATION IS IDENTICAL WITH THAT OF ROME, IT IS ONLY TO BE EXPECTED THAT THEY SHOULD SHOW A READINESS TO "GLADLY JOIN HANDS." AND WHENEVER PROTESTANTISM GAINS CONTROL OF THE CIVIL POWER, WHETHER WITH OR WITHOUT THE AID OF ROME, THAT WILL BE BUT TO ERECT AN IMAGE OF THE PAPACY. (GC 688, 689; Appendix)

When the National Reformers began to urge measures to restrict religious liberty, our leading men should have been alive to the situation, and should have labored earnestly to counteract these efforts. It is not in the order of God that light has been kept from our people,--the very present truth which they needed for this time. Not all our ministers who are giving the third angel's message, really understand what constitutes that message. The National Reform movement has been regarded by some as of so little importance that they have not thought it is necessary to give much attention to it, and have even felt that in so doing they would be giving time to questions distinct from the third angel's message. (ChS 162, 163)

[Pastor_Chick]

How Will 19th Century History Repeat?

[...]

ONE OF [NRA's] PROPOSITIONS, ANNOUNCED BY DAVID GREGG, D. D., PASTOR PARK STREET CHURCH, BOSTON, IS THAT THE STATE HAS "THE RIGHT TO COMMAND THE CONSCIENCES OF MEN."

ANOTHER, ANNOUNCED BY THE CHRISTIAN STATESMAN, IS THAT GOVERNMENT MUST "ENFORCE UPON ALL THAT COME AMONG US THE LAWS OF CHRISTIAN MORALITY."

ANOTHER, ANNOUNCED BY THE REV. E. B. GRAHAM, IS THAT "IF THE OPPONENTS OF THE BIBLE DO NOT LIKE OUR GOVERNMENT AND ITS CHRISTIAN FEATURES, LET THEM GO TO SOME WILD, DESOLATE LAND; AND, IN THE NAME OF THE DEVIL, AND FOR THE SAKE OF THE DEVIL, SUBDUE IT, AND SET UP A GOVERNMENT OF THEIR OWN ON INFIDEL AND ATHEISTIC IDEAS, AND THEN, IF THEY CAN STAND IT, STAY THERE TILL THEY DIE."

ANOTHER, ANNOUNCED BY JONATHAN EDWARDS, D. D., IS THAT JEWS, AND ALL CHRISTIANS WHO KEEP THE SEVENTH DAY, ARE TO BE CLASSED AS ATHEISTS, AND "MUST BE TREATED, AS FOR THIS [NATIONAL REFORM] QUESTION, ONE PARTY" WITH ATHEISTS, WHO "CANNOT DWELL TOGETHER ON THE SAME CONTINENT" WITH THE NATIONAL REFORM CHRISTIANITY.

[...]

Originally Posted By: EGW

If the people can be led to favor a Sunday law, then the clergy intend to exert their united influence to obtain a religious amendment to the Constitution, and compel the nation to keep Sunday. (RH 12-24-89)

My question is:

How will this 19th century history repeat?

Or, what possible conditions will develop to bring about a similar state of things?

After doing some research on the influence of the Jews on the world, and more specifically, the Untied States, I must conclude without reservation that 19th century history will NOT repeat, and that, primarily because of the influence of the Jews in key positions.

By 1840, Jews constituted a tiny, but nonetheless stable, middle-class minority of about 15,000 out of the 17 million Americans counted by the U.S. Census. Jews intermarried rather freely with non-Jews, continuing a trend that had begun at least a century earlier. However, as immigration increased the Jewish population to 50,000 by 1848, negative stereotypes of Jews in newspapers, literature, drama, art, and popular culture grew more commonplace and physical attacks became more frequent.

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_United_States)

This is a big country with lots and lots of very talented, highly educated, tremendously motivated people. And no one has its finger on the pulse of the people who make this country what it is more than Vanity Fair. And when it came time to pick the 100 who most move and shake things in America, more than half-more than half-are Jews. And on the list of those who will one day be on that list, more than half-more than half-are Jews. Not to mention that almost 100 percent of those who were on the list and are poised to make a comeback are Jews. Tells you so much about the place of Jews in this country, about the amazing people Jews are.

(Source: http://www.rense.com/general78/jewishpower.htm)

The most significant present day influence of Judaism is the peculiar relationship it has with the United States. Each U. S. President has committed to guaranteeing the military security of Israel starting from Israel's establishment in 1948, yet there is not any formal treaty between the U. S. and Israel. This has come about through the strong support of the Jewish people of the United States. That support comes in the form of direct representation in Congress and from two key lobby groups. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) dedicates itself to direct lobbying of members of Congress, and The Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations directly lobbies the executive branch of the U. S. government.

(Source: http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4727595_judaism-influence-world.html)

The days of antisemitism in the United States are gone. Who owns the wealth in America? Who owns the media in America?

We shall not see any Congressional laws forming that discriminate against the Jews. For that, Seventh-day Adventists can be thankful--Sabbath Day accommodation will be honored at some level as long as Jews exist.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The days of antisemitism in the United States are gone.

.....and how many Jewish people did you consult to come up with that statement?

Your comments have little to do with your conclusion. To be taken serious, one must

be accurate in their facts.

[Pastor_Chick]

Quote:

The days of antisemitism in the United States are gone.

.....and how many Jewish people did you consult to come up with that statement?

Your comments have little to do with your conclusion. To be taken serious, one must

be accurate in their facts.

Excuse me, please. I think you missed the point of my argument(s).

If I am inaccurate with my facts, then, please make the corrections so that no one is deceived.

FYI: My main point is that Jews are one of the most powerful ethnic groups in America today. There is no danger of some professedly "Christian" organization convincing Congress to pass a "Sunday law" that discriminates against Jews and Seventh-day Adventists. If you can gather up a counter view, make it known.

I value honest and coherent communication. "Hit and run" debate is not sanctifying to me.

[hch]

Excuse me, please. I think you missed the point of my argument(s).

If I am inaccurate with my facts, then, please make the corrections so that no one is deceived.

FYI: My main point is that Jews are one of the most powerful ethnic groups in America today. There is no danger of some professedly "Christian" organization convincing Congress to pass a "Sunday law" that discriminates against Jews and Seventh-day Adventists. If you can gather up a counter view, make it known.

I value honest and coherent communication. "Hit and run" debate is not sanctifying to me.

[Pastor_Chick]

The days of antisemitism in the United States are gone.

On further examination, I think I see what you keyed on regarding my statement above that should have been qualified. It is, of course, NOT true that antisemitism is COMPLETELY gone in America. That would be an absurd statement and totally inaccurate. I wish I had constructed my sentence in this way:

"The days of antisemitism that abounded in 19th century America are gone." or "Those days of antisemitism in the United States are gone."

One of the websites dealing with this subject posts an article entitled "ADL Survey: Anti-Semitism Declines Slightly in America; 14 Percent of Americans Hold 'Strong' Anti-Semitic Beliefs."

(Source: http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASUS_12/4680_12.htm)

Another interesting survey result concludes, "Jews were placed in the No. 1 spot, with an overall 'well-being' score of 69.8, followed by nonreligious or atheists/agnostics, Catholics, Mormons, Muslims and other religions. Protestants scored the lowest, at 64.8."

(Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/08/gallup-jews-score-highest_n_806247.html)

[Pastor_Chick]

Originally Posted By: Pastor_Chick

[...]

FYI: My main point is that Jews are one of the most powerful ethnic groups in America today. There is no danger of some professedly "Christian" organization convincing Congress to pass a "Sunday law" that discriminates against Jews and Seventh-day Adventists. If you can gather up a counter view, make it known.

[...]

Originally Posted By: EGW

While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other, choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God. {GC88 605.2}

Submitting to earthly power in order to buy and sell is a driving force for wealthy people and those that are hungry.

Originally Posted By: Revelation 14:9-10

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

[hch]

FYI: My main point is that Jews are one of the most powerful ethnic groups in America today. There is no danger of some professedly "Christian" organization convincing Congress to pass a "Sunday law" that discriminates against Jews and Seventh-day Adventists. If you can gather up a counter view, make it known.

[Pastor_Chick]

Pastor Chick

Consider this endtime scenario:

Last pope is in office since wound healed 1929 (Rev 13)

Last USA President in office (Daniel 7:17 applied to vv 1-13)

The economy tanks (Daniel 12)

Mr. Obama forced to overhaul Federal Reserve System

National (global) ID card or V-chip (whatever)

NOT linked to Sabbath or Sunday worship

LINKED to human enactment - obey or no buy and sell

global turmoil = Republicanism / Protestantism union

ISSUE these bad things are happening because we have rejected God

Apostate Protestants (The people) demand Sunday Laws

The US government links it to ID card for buying and selling to force compliance

Henry,

I have some serious problems with "this endtime scenario." I commend you for your study and time spent in contemplation.

However, you must first define the following in specific terms that agree with Scripture:

1) THE IMAGE

2) THE MARK

AND, how is it that SDAs are the ones singled out to have their liberty of conscience restricted?

Also, how is it that keeping the commandments of God becomes the dividing line?

What is going to cause Protestants to demand Sunday laws? AND, more than that, what is going to change in our constitution and judicial system that would open the flood gates for such a scenario?

It seems that you are IN AGREEMENT with me that the 19th century condition of things in America is not going to repeat. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Pastor_Chick]

Pat Buchanan comments: "With Kagan, too many Jews on Supreme Court bench"

Quote:

After the nomination of Elena Kagan in 2010 to be the third sitting Jewish justice, conservative political commentator Pat Buchanan stated that, "If Kagan is confirmed, Jews, who represent less than 2 percent of the U.S. population, will have 33 percent of the Supreme Court seats."

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_United_States_Supreme_Court_justices)

Quote:

Indeed, of the last seven justices nominated by Democrats JFK, LBJ, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama, one was black, Marshall; one was Puerto Rican, Sonia Sotomayor. The other five were Jews: Arthur Goldberg, Abe Fortas, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Stephen Breyer and Elena Kagan....

(Source: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/05/14/buchanan-too-many-jews-supreme-court/)

Here is another bit of astounding information about Jews in America.

Quote:

Although Jews make up only two or three percent of the US population, they wield immense power and influ­ence – much more than any other ethnic or religious group.

As Jewish author and political science professor Benjamin Ginsberg has pointed out:

“Since the 1960s, Jews have come to wield considerable influence in American economic, cultural, intellectual and political life. Jews played a central role in American finance during the 1980s, and they were among the chief beneficiaries of that decade’s corporate mergers and reorganizations. Today, though barely two percent of the nation’s population is Jewish, close to half its billionaires are Jews. The chief executive officers of the three major television networks and the four largest film studios are Jews, as are the owners of the nation’s larg­est newspaper chain and the most influential single newspaper, the New York Times... The role and influence of Jews in Ameri­can politics is equally marked...

“Jews are only three percent of the nation’s population and com­prise eleven percent of what this study defines as the nation’s elite. However, Jews constitute more than 25 percent of the elite journalists and publishers, more than 17 percent of the leaders of important voluntary and public interest organiza­tions, and more than 15 percent of the top ranking civil ser­vants.”

(Source: http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/jewishlobby.shtml)

My point is and has been that America is not going to cave into some Protestant conspiracy to overwhelm Congress and come out with a religious law that discriminates against Judaism. Even though the last test centers on Sabbath issues, an oppressive law requiring Sunday observance at the expense of the 7th Day just can not happen. The Jews will not allow it. And Protestants are not going to overpower the Jewish influence in America.

It is time to study our Bibles and understand the principles of prophecy in light of current events transacting before our very eyes and within our own religion.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

Pastor Chick

Consider this endtime scenario:

Last pope is in office since wound healed 1929 (Rev 13)

Last USA President in office (Daniel 7:17 applied to vv 1-13)

The economy tanks (Daniel 12)

Mr. Obama forced to overhaul Federal Reserve System

National (global) ID card or V-chip (whatever)

NOT linked to Sabbath or Sunday worship

LINKED to human enactment - obey or no buy and sell

global turmoil = Republicanism / Protestantism union

ISSUE these bad things are happening because we have rejected God

Apostate Protestants (The people) demand Sunday Laws

The US government links it to ID card for buying and selling to force compliance

Henry,

I have some serious problems with "this endtime scenario." I commend you for your study and time spent in contemplation.

However, you must first define the following in specific terms that agree with Scripture:

1) THE IMAGE

2) THE MARK

[Pastor_Chick]

If Apostate Protestants cannot go that route, they will take another route to accomplish their ends. I cannot be sure what way Satan will open to accomplish his ends.

Henry,

You are getting very close to knowing the truth. At least, you are not willing to buy ideas without thought and study.

For now, I will remind you, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7)

His modern prophets know the precise working of YAHWEH, and the "sure word of prophecy."

There are Scriptural reasons why things will not happen precisely as our pioneers and EGW expected. BTW, EGW never saw a Sunday law in vision. Her writings were strongly influenced by pioneer leaders (her husband included) and events that were transpiring before her eyes.

[Pastor_Chick]

I failed to include one revealing quote from Ellen White.

The people who will now see what is soon to come upon us by what is being transacted before us, will no longer trust in human inventions,... (HM 11-01-93)

Rather than depending on dreams and visions, God revealed to E. G. White the method of "see[ing] what is soon to come upon us by what is being transacted before us."

My all-important question is, What is being transacted before us?

[hch]

My all-important question is, What is being transacted before us?

The Great time of trouble in its infancy

[BobRyan]

The image to the beast is formed when federal (national) sunday laws are passed.

They will likely be of the same form that we have in the State's existing blue laws and will not be "A test" for SDAs.

Rather that will be the final "sign" for SDAs that they are to leave the large cities.

The "test" will come with later more stringent Sunday laws that go BEYOND the milk-toast level of the existing State Sunday Laws.

in Christ,

Bob

[Pastor_Chick]

The image to the beast is formed when federal (national) sunday laws are passed.

They will likely be of the same form that we have in the State's existing blue laws and will not be "A test" for SDAs.

Rather that will be the final "sign" for SDAs that they are to leave the large cities.

The "test" will come with later more stringent Sunday laws that go BEYOND the milk-toast level of the existing State Sunday Laws.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

How long would you expect before this "test" develops? Is it possible to see something "go BEYOND the milk-toast level of the existing State Sunday Laws" within the next 20 years?

I mean, it has taken nearly 100 years to go from virtually every state in the Union enforcing Sunday "blue laws" to few states having them on the books.

The Jews missed the Messiah.

[skyblue888]

A.T. Jones dealt with this question as to how it will repeat itself at the 1893 General Conference. The Third Angel's Message, lectures # 2-6. Excellent studies.

sky

[BobRyan]

Ellen White states that the final events will be rapid ones.

If you read the religious liberty thread I started on the Sunday Law you will see a mechanism already at work in the U.S that could change our story over-night.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post447086

in Christ,

Bob

[Pastor_Chick]

Ellen White states that the final events will be rapid ones.

If you read the religious liberty thread I started on the Sunday Law you will see a mechanism already at work in the U.S that could change our story over-night.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post447086

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

What is the point? I missed it.

[phkrause]

There are countries right now that have been jailing Sabbath keepers! And also if you look at the history of the Jews they've been persicuted for most of there exsistence for worshipping on the Sabbath.

[Pastor_Chick]

There are countries right now that have been jailing Sabbath keepers! And also if you look at the history of the Jews they've been persicuted for most of there exsistence for worshipping on the Sabbath.

pk,

I would like to see some of that documentation. Are there online sources? If not, can you offer some details here? Thanks in advance.

[phkrause]

I would like to see some of that documentation. Are there online sources? If not, can you offer some details here? Thanks in advance.

Without doing a google at this point. Have you not read many instances where Chinese Pastors have been imprisoned for worshiping on the Sabbath?? And also N. Korea?? I have a friend up in Mass that is from N. Korea that had to leave is home country because of persecusion over the Sabbath. Russia has had many Sabbath keepers put in prison for this and this was not that many years ago. And of course we have the Nazis that put Jews into concentration camps for the sole purpose of extermination and I believe that Jews are Sabbath keepers????? So there are plenty of cases. What's so hard to accept this?????

[phkrause]

And to add to that, in many countries Christians are persecuted for just being Christians. Of course there's been plenty of persecution from Christians also throughout history.

[Pastor_Chick]

And to add to that, in many countries Christians are persecuted for just being Christians. Of course there's been plenty of persecution from Christians also throughout history.

pk,

Thank you for responding on this with a couple of tries.

I do not receive religious news-letters or have subscriptions to news services. I live in an undeveloped part of Africa, and am blessed to have Internet service a few hours per day. So, if you have some links or documentation, I would be interested to be educated on what you know. Thank you.

[phkrause]

Thank you for responding on this with a couple of tries.

I do not receive religious news-letters or have subscriptions to news services. I live in an undeveloped part of Africa, and am blessed to have Internet service a few hours per day. So, if you have some links or documentation, I would be interested to be educated on what you know. Thank you.

Here is a link:

http://www.google.com/search?q=Sabbath+persecution&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

to a bunch of stuff. You will have to copy and paste, sorry.