miz3 Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 The title is the question. Some say Jesus Christ was born with a sinful nature like you and I. Others say Jesus Christ was born with a Sinless Nature like Adam. Which is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 8, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 8, 2011 NO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Gerry, Do you mean "NO" to the title question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted April 8, 2011 Members Share Posted April 8, 2011 Gerry, Do you mean "NO" to the title question? I believe he is, but I'll let him reply to that. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 8, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 8, 2011 Gerry, Do you mean "NO" to the title question? NO to the title question. If you search the archive, this was discussed at great length & detail within the past 12 mos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 Thus, it is a settled question on this forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 8, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 8, 2011 Thus, it is a settled question on this forum? Everybody to their own opinions, just like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted April 8, 2011 Members Share Posted April 8, 2011 Thus, it is a settled question on this forum? Nothing is settle on this forum. Each brings there opinions, and all read what others have to say about a topic. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 If I read you correctly, this means on this particular issue, there is no consensus conclusion. In fact we do not seek to find consensus. We just express our opinions and let others have at it!!!!!!!!!!! This is good! However, does this mean specifically on this topic everyone is tapped out and no longer wants to participate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 8, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 8, 2011 If I read you correctly, this means on this particular issue, there is no consensus conclusion. This is good! However, does this mean specifically on this topic everyone is tapped out and no longer wants to participate? Yep. Apparently just like were in the "Free Moral Agents" thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tallmark Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 How was Jesus was born with the nature of Adam before the fall, and had the body of Adam after the fall? Paul said that he was made "like unto his brethren." Please tell me which one of his brethren had a nature and body like this? I'd say no one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Where did Paul say that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 9, 2011 How was Jesus was born with the nature of Adam before the fall, and had the body of Adam after the fall? Paul said that he was made "like unto his brethren." Please tell me which one of his brethren had a nature and body like this? I'd say no one. 1. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit. None of the other children of Adam could claim this. 2. He was called "holy" from the moment of conception. None of us can claim that. 3. If He had sinful flesh/nature, He would have been under condemnation just like the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Some say Jesus Christ was born with a sinful nature like you and I. I'll try to keep this simple. 1] Jesus is and has always been God. As God He is sinless. There's no sinful nature in Divinity. 2] At the incarnation, Christ's Deity was combined with our humanity in the womb of Mary. The life that came from Mary contained our sinful nature. Christ, as God, assumed this life for some 33 years. This life was called the Son of Man. He's the last Adam. 3] Because the Son of Man was born with our fallen nature the law immediately condemned Him. Not for being a sinner (as in transgression of the law), but for having a fallen human nature. 4] Christ was born unlike us because He was born with God's Spirit in control of His assumed human nature. Hence He never sinned.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 9, 2011 Where did Paul say that? KJV 1900 | Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 1. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit. None of the other children of Adam could claim this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 9, 2011 So as a human baby, He was UNholy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 So as a human baby, He was UNholy? If He was ... He wasn't of the age of accountability. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 So as a human baby, He was UNholy? As the Son of God He was holy....As the Son of Man - as a child of Adam - he was sinful by nature (not transgression) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo So as a human baby, He was UNholy? As the Son of God He was holy....As the Son of Man - as a child of Adam - he was sinful by nature (not transgression) I like your response better than mine Sonny. :) Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Jesus, as God, took our humanity (which stands condemned) for 33 years. At the cross Jesus as the Son of Man took the curse of the law. He experienced the 2nd death. At the resurrection God left Christ's fallen human life in the grave. In place of it He raised Christ with a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin (our sin nature). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 Jesus, as God, took our humanity (which stands condemned) for 33 years. At the cross Jesus as the Son of Man took the curse of the law. He experienced the 2nd death. At the resurrection God left Christ's fallen human life in the grave. In place of it He raised Christ with a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin (our sin nature). Thanks Sonny Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 Are you confusing the outward body that is filled with the ravages of sin with the inner (not matter but spiritual part) human which is where the "sinful nature" (again an intangible entity) rules and makes itself to fan out and rule every part of the human? I see a difference between inheriting the outward (tangible parts of humanity) flesh and inheriting the inner part (which is intangible) where the sinful nature resides and rules. To my view: 1. Jesus Christ inherited the outer sinful flesh. Thus, Jesus Christ got thirsty, got hungry, got tired, His skin would get bruised and even bleed, etc. 2. The inner part was like Adam before the fall. His nature was uncorrupted and sinless like Adam before the fall. Thus Jesus Christ had a "sinless nature". In regards to number one above Jesus Christ was like you and me. In regards to number two above Jesus Christ was like Adam before the fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 9, 2011 1] Jesus is and has always been God. As God He is sinless. There's no sinful nature in Divinity. 2] At the incarnation, Christ's Deity was combined with our humanity in the womb of Mary. The life that came from Mary contained our sinful nature. Christ, as God, assumed this life for some 33 years. This life was called the Son of Man. He's the last Adam. 3] Because the Son of Man was born with our fallen nature the law immediately condemned Him. Not for being a sinner (as in transgression of the law), but for having a fallen human nature. 4] Christ was born unlike us because He was born with God's Spirit in control of His assumed human nature. Hence He never sinned.... I agree with you almost completely. Where does the Bible teach #3? In Gal. 4: 4? Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, I agree with #4, but I would add that we can also allow God's Spirit to control us so that we are able to resist all temptations and overcome sin in our life. Jesus didn't have any greater power available to resist temptations than we can have. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 9, 2011 To my view: 1. Jesus Christ inherited the outer sinful flesh. Thus, Jesus Christ got thirsty, got hungry, got tired, His skin would get bruised and even bleed, etc. 2. The inner part was like Adam before the fall. His nature was uncorrupted and sinless like Adam before the fall. Thus Jesus Christ had a "sinless nature". In regards to number one above Jesus Christ was like you and me. In regards to number two above Jesus Christ was like Adam before the fall. The problem with your viewpoint is that teh Bible teaches that Christ was made like unto his brethren in all things in order to help the offspring of Abraham. He did this in order to suffer temptation so that He would be able to help those who are tempted. He couldn't become our High Priest without learning from personal experience what it is like to be sorely tempted to sin as humans are tempted. This means that Chrsit was tempted like his "brethren" are tempted, not like the pre-fallen Adam was tempted. The pre-fallen Adam was only tempted from outside. On the other hand, Christ's brethren whom he came to help are tempted from within as well as from without. Threfore, Christ also had to be tempted from within as well as from without. Hebrews 4: 15 in fact says that Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. That can only mean that Jesus was tempted as we are, not as Adam was tempted in the Garden while he was perfect. Jesus' tempations were far harder than Adam's. Consider the following verses: Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin. Hebrews 2:16-18 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. [17] Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. [18] For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Hebrews 2:16-18 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. [17] Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [18] For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. Here is how the Scriptures say we are tempted: James 1:14-15 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. [15] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. Jesus knew what it was like to be tempted from within to disobey His Father. If He didn't, then He didn't know what it was like to be tempted as all humans are tempted. As a man, Jesus' will was not always in harmony with God's will, as when He prayed in the Garden, "Your will be done, not my will." Jesus' will was to avoid death on the cross, but He chose to submit His will to the Father's. Thus every time He was faced with a choice, whether to obey the Father or to go His own way and to sin, Christ always chose to obey the Father. But the big point here is that Christ was sinless not because of the way He was born (different from all other humans), but because of His choice and His dependancy upon the power of God, the same power that is given to each and every believer in Him. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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