End of Time - another Surprise Ending??

[BobRyan]

Surprise endings (ones that the people of God do not expect) seem to be the norm when it comes to eschatology.

1. Noah was "tested" by the fact that once the boat was built - and God closed the door on the 8 people that entered... it was 7 days of "pause" before the rain fell.

2. When Christ came the first time - neither his enemies nor his followers expected the suprise ending - where the Messiah dies on the cross.

3. When the 1843-1844 message was preached by Millerites - those in the message were utterly shocked at the suprise ending.

4. Now we as SDAs expect a Sunday-Legislation dominated scenario that leads to the close of probation and the 7 last plagues... ARE WE headed for a "surprise ending"?

Here is a clue - what odds and ends do we find in regard to the end of time - in places like Revelation and Ellen White's statements... where we don't know how they fit into the end-time-picture?

It is interesting that it is not until Matt 16 after 3 years of ministry that Christ starts to make it very clear to his disciples that they are headed for a surprise because he will be crucified. They are totally confused by his words - they don't know how to "interpret them".

Do we ALSO have some odds and ends sitting up on the high shelf that we do not know how to fit into the final picture?

Are we headed for "hey you guys! you never told us about THIS -- you just talked about Sunday Laws".

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

We have the blessing of Ellen White's ministry in these last days - but there are many details she left out... nuclear reactors, China and Russia as competing superpowers, the role taken by Islam and Communism, Nuclear weapons, Germany's role in WWII, the internet, travel to the moon, space probes leaving our solar system.

etc.

Clearly our "blue print" is not exhaustive -- and yet she does provide details we have yet to "place".

Here are just a few --

Signs and Wonders BEFORE the Close of Probation:

Quote:

We are warned that in the last days he will work with signs and lying wonders. And he will continue these wonders until the close of probation, that he may point to them as evidence that he is an angel of light and not of darkness. {Mar 208.2}

Will have to deny our senses

Quote:

Only those who have been diligent students of the Scriptures and who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive. By the Bible testimony these will detect the deceiver in his disguise. To all the testing time will come. By the sifting of temptation the genuine Christian will be revealed. Are the people of God now so firmly established upon His word that they would not yield to the evidence of their senses? Would they, in such a crisis, cling to the Bible and the Bible only? {Mar 160.6} {GC88 625.2} {GC 625.3}

Fire coming down from heaven

Quote:

Satan will come in to deceive if possible the very elect. He claims to be Christ, and he is coming in, pretending to be the great medical missionary. He will cause fire to come down from heaven in the sight of men to prove that he is God. {Mar 208.3}

It is the lying wonders of the devil that will take the world captive, and he will cause fire to come down from heaven in the sight of men. He is to work miracles; and this wonderful, miracle-working power is to sweep in the whole world. {Mar 208.4}

Some will be tempted to receive these wonders as from God. The sick will be healed before us. Miracles will be performed in our sight. Are we prepared for the trial which awaits us when the lying wonders of Satan shall be more fully exhibited? Will not many souls be ensnared and taken? By departing from the plain precepts and commandments of God, and giving heed to fables, the minds of many are preparing to receive these lying wonders. We must all now seek to arm ourselves for the contest in which we must soon engage. Faith in God's word, prayerfully studied and practically applied, will be our shield from Satan's power and will bring us off conquerors through the blood of Christ. {Mar 208.5}

And here is the big one -- sitting high up on the shelf

(far from the "Sunday-is-coming" material??).

Heathen deities will manifest before the cities of the world

Quote:

Maranatha – July 21, May 12. P140, P210

Rapidly are men ranging themselves under the banner they have chosen, restlessly waiting and watching the movements of their leaders. There are those who are watching and waiting and working for our Lord's appearing; while the other party are rapidly falling into line under the generalship of the first great apostate. They look for a God in humanity, and Satan personifies the one they seek. Multitudes will be so deluded through their rejection of truth, that they will accept the counterfeit. Humanity is hailed as God. {Mar 140.1}

As we near the close of time, there will be greater and still greater external parade of heathen power; heathen deities will manifest their signal power, and will exhibit themselves before the cities of the world; and this delineation has already begun to be fulfilled. By a variety of images the Lord Jesus represented to John the wicked character and seductive influence of those who have been distinguished for their persecution of God's people. All need wisdom carefully to search out the mystery of iniquity that figures so largely in the winding up of this earth's history. . . . In the very time in which we live, the Lord has called His people and has given them a message to bear. He has called them to expose the wickedness of the man of sin who has made the Sunday law a distinctive power, who has thought to change times and laws, and to oppress the people of God who stand firmly to honor Him by keeping the only true Sabbath, the Sabbath of creation. . . . {Mar 140.2}

hmmm -- can't tell you how many times I have heard this one in an evangelistic seminar -- " As we near the close of time, there will be greater and still greater external parade of heathen power; heathen deities will manifest their signal power, and will exhibit themselves before the cities of the world;"...

Oh wait yes I can! - zero.

Could we be in for a surprise ending?

in Christ,

Bob

[Kevin H]

The surprises continue: Deuteronomy 4 predicted two possible histories for Israel. One if they were faithful and God would bless them and the world would come to them for the gospel and nations would join them, other's reject then and the world end in a great eschatological war. Or that they are unfaithful get a lot of curses and if nothing else works then they would go into exile, where they were to share the gospel with their neighbors and that the exile was to be the last days ending with the messiah leading them home in a second great exodus.

[Kevin H]

Mrs. White's details are how Jesus could have come in her life time or soon thereafter. However her basic frame work still is valid: The Catholics and Protestants becoming highly influenced by existentialism (spiritualism), Enforced religion, with Sunday laws and the message of the Sabbath playing a role in a world wide economic state.

[John317]

Good post, Bob. Very significant points about the end-time that we all need to be aware of and planning for.

[John317]

A close student of end-time events as seen in the Bible and the writings of Ellen White will be able to tell where we are in relation to prophetic events to occur just before the second coming.

[BobRyan]

The surprises continue: Deuteronomy 4 predicted two possible histories for Israel. One if they were faithful and God would bless them and the world would come to them for the gospel and nations would join them, other's reject then and the world end in a great eschatological war. Or that they are unfaithful get a lot of curses and if nothing else works then they would go into exile, where they were to share the gospel with their neighbors and that the exile was to be the last days ending with the messiah leading them home in a second great exodus.

Indeed. Knowing how it turned out - it is somewhat of a 20-20 hindsight exercise to then go back into the OT and find all the datapoints supporting the actual event.

But that involves careful discounting or qualifying places like Zechariah 9 and 13 as well as the predictions of John the baptizer's father (Zacharias) in Luke 1 and the predictions of John the baptizer himself in Luke 3 regarding the mission of the Messiah. So knowing which ones to highlight and which ones to lament as "never happened" is the blessing of 20-20 hindsight.

The same is true with what we find in Daniel and Rev and in Ellen White's writings regarding the end of time. In a "surprised once again" scenario, we will then have the same 20-20 hindsight enabling us to go back through and pick out all the key items that we "set high up on the shelf" today, but which may come back to bite us in the not-so-distant future.

What is curious is that EVERY time the saints in history came to one of these events - they were ALWAYS certain that THIS time we will not be surprised.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

A close student of end-time events as seen in the Bible and the writings of Ellen White will be able to tell where we are in relation to prophetic events to occur just before the second coming.

I agree.

In fact in AA 260 we are told that "it is sinful to be indifferent to the signs" of Christ's second coming. (That was a comment on 1Thess 5 in the book Acts of the Apostles).

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

In Ellen White's predictions -- there are combinations of neglected facts that come into play.

1. Miracles, signs and wonders done by demons.

2. Evolution as Satan's special program of deception.

3. Mesmerism (hypnotism) being of the devil. (Called regression therapy today)

4. Spirit manifestations.

5. Heathen deities displaying themselves before the cities of the world.

6. Destroying the Bible without taking it away by making various claims that appear to refute the Bible.

For 1000's of years we have had mediums, and worshippers of false gods, and we still have them today. So that is not the "new" element that Ellen White was predicting.

It is clear to see how Protestant America has united with Catholicism in all but the final Sunday-law agenda at this point in time. It is not so clear that America in official government action is going to unit with spiritism which may invovle the 6 points above. (stay tuned)

Hint: That combined program may already be starting.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

A separate point to consider - sometimes what the Bible says in figure and symbol - not only has a symbolic meaning that is fulfilled - but in some cases the symbol itself gets a bit of a boosted endorsement.

For example --

In Rev 14: 3 angels preach the gospel from mid-heaven. And oddly enough we now literally have satellites in mid-heaven proclaiming the 3-angels message to earth. Not the main point of prediction in the text - but an interesting "coincidence". Maybe God was telling us something - without telling us something.

(Curiously - in Rev 16 - Unclean spirits “like frogs” deal directly with human governments the way Rev 16 describes - will be part of the 7 last plagues. Who knows – they may literally take on an appearance similar to frogs (in some small way - like skin or eyes or hands or who knows)-- in at least some cases.

[Dr. Rich]

The end time events will only be a surprise for the wicked as found in Dan. 12:10. For those of 'us' who have insight, Jesus has done a great job of presenting the truth regarding the events and time that these events will happen. And as it now appears, these events are going to surprise far too many within the Adventist church because they have been mislead by the one found in Rev. 2:18-26. It seems that not many of them will even want to know what and when things are going to happen. Remember, 144,000 out of the full membership of the SDA church is a drop in the bucket! It is no wonder the gate and road to salvation is narrow!

[Christopher]

Jesus said The Gospel shall be preached to all the world then the end will come,that will be the end of probation before that happens is the Shaking and the Little Time of Trouble. Some People will be surprised for sure probably even those who think they know what to expect.

Also the Enemy of all knows what is expected of him so he will work to make it as unexpected as possible.

[Haldog]

God is the one holding all the cards. "The Enemy of all" is in the dark and God intended it that way. God has had satan off-balance since Genesis 3.

[Christopher]

God is the one holding all the cards. "The Enemy of all" is in the dark and God intended it that way. God has had satan off-balance since Genesis 3.

Would have to disagree that the enemy doesn't know because i;m sure he can read the bible as well as he was the smartest creation being next to God for so long.His thinking is warped by sin of course still i think he can out-think us and such deceive us in so many differing ways we would be spinning if we didn't keep our eyes on Jesus.He does have free-will also and God doesn't need nor does keep anything secret,that would sorta defeat the purpose.

[Haldog]

Of course he can deceive us, look at all the religions of the world.

The plan of Salvation as we know it now was not laid out in detail in the Garden of Eden, just a hint was given. And ever since the devil has been having to guess who the Messiah was. He thought maybe Moses was the Messiah and had all the babies killed. He missed over and over again. He has always been a step behind God. Even now satan doesn't know when the tribulation will start but he knows that once the rapture happens (I know...SDA's don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I do) he has a limited time to setup his men-in-waiting because he knows his days are numbered.

[ClubV12]

Of course the 144K would not include martyrs and others who die in Christ before the fomation of that elite group of survivors.

...or, will it?

"All" those who died under the 3rd angels message, along with those that "pierced Him", will rise BEFORE the general resurrection of all the dead in Christ throughout the ages. Resurrection #1; all those under the 3rd angels message, followed shortly by resurrection #2, all the righteous through out all time, at His coming.

It's not impossible that those "early" risen Saints (all those who died under the 3rd angels message) could be considered "qualifiable" for inclusion within the 144,000.

[wayfinder]

There are only two resurrections. The first resurrection is of those who sleep in the dust of the earth, the righteous. The second resurrection is of the dead, the wicked, who are resurrected to receive their judgment/sentence. Those of the second resurrection will experience the second death. The 144,000 are alive at the end of time and are sealed prior to the shaking of the kingdom of the heavens.

Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection ; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

[miz3]

God is the one holding all the cards. "The Enemy of all" is in the dark and God intended it that way. God has had satan off-balance since Genesis 3.

I agree with this statement. If it is not true, then why do the evil spirits say this:

"Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss." Luke 8:30-31.

Abyss means to be sent to hell! They were afraid this was the time for their punishment.

[ClubV12]

"The first resurrection is of those who sleep in the dust of the earth, the righteous."

...along with those that pierced Him, those that reviled Him, and all those who died under the 3rd angels message.

The details of this "special resurrection", as some call it, are clearly laid out in the Great Controversy. There is no specific time reference offered between the special and the general resurrection. It could be very short, or somewhat in length of time. But we know this, the special resurrection occurs when the "small dark cloud, about the size of a fist" first becomes discernible. This is the same time as the beginning or possibly during or even at the end of the seventh and last plague. Personally, I put the time frame at the beginning of the seventh plague from my study on the matter, but I'm flexible on that.

As the cloud draws nearer, or one might say, "has arrived", the general resurrection then takes place. The risen wicked, along with the living wicked, are killed by His glory. For those who pierced and/or reviled Him, this is the second time they have died. They now wait (along with all the wicked dead), for a 1,000 years. They are resurrected, again, and finally die a third and everlasting time.

[miz3]

To all,

Why would the demons even remotely think that Jesus was going to send them to hell at that moment if demons knew the time line?

[miz3]

Wouldn't Satan and his demons know the 2300 day prophecy and have already figured out that they had at least until 1844?

[ClubV12]

You tend to loose, at least in the moment, all reason and logic in that moment of sheer terror when faced with certain doom! :)

[Dr. Rich]

Club12V, Like I said before, ONLY those who are the bond servants will understand. Hang in there Club12V but don't hold your breath while believing in the one who wrote the GC. And by the way, The great tribulation will start around the spring equinox in 2016. But what the heck do I know? Perhaps we will find out. Hmmmm?

There will only be two resurections. One for the righteous who are now in thier sleep death and one for those who are wicked to be raised for the purpose of letting them know the real truth.

And no, EGW will NOT be raised in the first resurection, see Rev. 2:18-26 to find out why.

And no, those who are now dead will not be part of the 144k. These are now living and will be those who will know the real truth. And no, the gospel that Paul taught will NOT be the same gospel that Jesus taught that will be given to the whole world. Jesus' gospel is the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. See Matt. 24

[miz3]

Wouldn't Satan and his demons know the 2300 day prophecy and have already figured out that they had at least until 1844?

That is a supposition on your part is not a fact. There is no where such a thing is stated except in your mind.

Besides we have come to believe that the devil and his demons:

1. Are smarter and more learned than we are and we know the 2300 day stuff.

2. In the temptation of Christ it is clear that Satan knew Scripture.

3. Thus my question still stands valid at this point.

[Kevin H]

Wouldn't Satan and his demons know the 2300 day prophecy and have already figured out that they had at least until 1844?

No they wouldn't because it was written in Eastern cyclic thought (the same thing that is mis-applied to the idea of reincarnation). The term is not a clear time date but cyclic "Evening-Morning" which compared to Leviticus' cycles can be 2300 literal days, 2300 weeks, 2300 half years (between Yom Kipper and Passover, to Yom Kipper again), 2300 years, 2300 Sabbatical years in connection with Jubelees. (However Daniel is more Deuteronomic and less Priestly so the Jubelee was not that emphesised so the longest to Daniel would mean years)

The original context of Daniel 8:14 was that it was given the year that included 2300 literal days from the fall of Babylon (while we don't know the day of the year Daniel had the vision, we know that from that year 2300 days later was either Persia breathing down Babylon' neck, the fall of Babylon and the early days of Persia)

Then Daniel 9 reapplies it to being connected with the 70 weeks prophecy. The Cyclic language gives room for the 70 weeks of years to be cut off from the longer (Years) possibliity, but also if you look at the time line of Ezekiel 39, you come up with 2310 days. However if you subtract the 10 days from New Years to Yom Kipper, you have 2300 days, and fro that context it could again be the last 2300 days of the 70 weeks of years propheecy.

The condition for the second coming is the gospel being preached into all the world. Satan and the demons knew that there were the different possiblites of the cyclic applications of which 1844 was just one possibility; but not which possibility it would be.