Why Adventists don't agree with the Nicene Creed.

[Gustave]

Why don't you show us some of them?

[Gustave]

From context I think Gustave is using 'mutate' with the (non-standard) meaning 'change his fundamental form'. That is, hsi claim is that Christ could not change from being fully God to being fully man. The argument is that in the Incarnation Jesus was *both* fully God and fully human, but if he had chosen to sin he would have been subject to death, and the divine part would have fled or died.

[Woody]

From context I think Gustave is using 'mutate' with the (non-standard) meaning 'change his fundamental form'. That is, hsi claim is that Christ could not change from being fully God to being fully man. The argument is that in the Incarnation Jesus was *both* fully God and fully human, but if he had chosen to sin he would have been subject to death, and the divine part would have fled or died.

It's an interesting point to make (and I hope I've made it a little clearer), and just goes to show how the Incarnation is an on-going mystery. Given that we've been told it will be our study in eternity, we're not going to solve it here today... but it's interesting to talk about.

Thanks Bravus. That clearly defines the issue.

[Woody]

Quote:

I'm saying is that for "God" to cease to exist because He sinned.

...Would require mutation.

God would not and could not die nor sin. Only Jesus the man would have died. And oh my I can see where this is going. I think I will have to stop and plead ignorance. Like Bravus says ... it is quite the mystery.

[Bravus]

How then do we reconcile His unfallen human nature with being 'in all points tested as we are'?

[Woody]

Quote:

Bravus: "How then do we reconcile His unfallen human nature with being 'in all points tested as we are'?"

I guess because He had to always use his Father's power and not his divinity. I am sure he had most of the temptations or type of temptations that we have.

[Woody]

My question to myself is - If this is true then the Father was not giving up much for His Son would never have died. It does create some issues. Hope someone will fill in the blanks of my ignorance.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...I'm familiar with a minimum of 28 explicit cases in Scripture in which the Arian concept of Christ loosing His salvation...

...Is classified as heresy.

Please provide all 28.

[Gustave]

My question to myself is - If this is true then the Father was not giving up much for His Son would never have died. It does create some issues. Hope someone will fill in the blanks of my ignorance.

No, Jesus DIED - when God meets death it isn't God that changes it's DEATH. How could you say that - "the Father wasn't giving up much"? Trust me, The Father gave ALL He had.

I've heard the same reasoning from the Jehovah's Witnesses and Christadelphians....

...They are also Adventists.

I'll catch up on this thread to the other answers then I would be happy to show you some Scriptures.

[Woody]

Quote:

No, Jesus DIED - when God meets death

Did Jesus die or did God?

People with different views of the nature of Christ are talking past each other. Kinda hard when definitions are not agreed upon.

[Gustave]

How then do we reconcile His unfallen human nature with being 'in all points tested as we are'?

Check the Greek Bravus, Christ WAS tempted in all points exactly like us BY or OF The DEVIL...

...This relates to the frail condition of the human body ( pain, sick, hunger, thirst, etc)

...Jesus was NOT EVER tempted within Himself to sin.

It would be like someone coming up to you and asking you if you would like to help molest a child after you took some hard core drugs.

YOU were tempted BY the guy who asked you to help molest the child....

...You did NOT have to RESIST this temptation because YOUR own lust was NOT pulling you toward that sin.

...This was the way Sacred Scripture said IT HAD TO BE WITH GOD.

ZEPH 3:5

The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, [color:#CC0000]he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame

A) God does NOT do iniquity

God does NOT FAIL

According to the Bible.

[Gustave]

Quote:

No, Jesus DIED - when God meets death

Did Jesus die or did God?

People with different views of the nature of Christ are talking past each other. Kinda hard when definitions are not agreed upon.

Jesus "IS" God as much as the Father is God and as much as the Holy Spirit is God...

[Bravus]

God does not fail but God dies?

[Woody]

Quote:

Jesus "IS" God as much as the Father is God and as much as the Holy Spirit is God...

Jesus came not to be God ... but man.

If Jesus as God died - How did He raise Himself up after He as God was dead?

[John317]

When the righteous are sealed and go to the "marriage feast" they will be one with God and as such will become as their older Brother Jesus, sons and daughters of God. They will sit on God's throne as God's....

Revelation 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Do you mean "as Gods"?

The righteous will share the throne but they will never have the same nature as Christ and the Father. That's an impossibility.

Jesus Christ and the Father have life in themselves-- that is, life that they can give to others. That is why they can create life. Creatures, on the other hand, will never be able to create life. The saved will never be "Gods." They will be immortal, glorified human beings, but will never be God and man as Christ is.

[skyblue888]

The righteous will share the throne but they will never have the same nature as Christ and the Father. That's an impossibility.

John317

___________________

John, sometimes, I really don't understand your reasoning, especially when it comes to this subject. They share the throne because they have become one with God in Christ. According to the Scriptures the righteous are "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) but I guess, according to you, that is different from God's divine nature???!!!

The Scriptures teach that the redeemed are one with Christ as Christ is one with the Father. You believe that Christ is God in the highest sense and the redeemed are one with Him in the same way that Christ is one with the Father and somehow you deny that their oneness with Christ is the same as Christ's oneness with the Father!

John, from what I understand, your reasoning is merely human reasoning. Why take the "unfathomable gift" out of the equation? Why do that?

2 Cor.9:15.

sky

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

Why don't you show us some of them?

Alright,

Originally Posted By: Ellen White, 10MR 385.1

[color:#FF0000]If one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished

Here's the entire passage:

Quote:

MR No. 846 - If One Sin had Tainted Christ's Character

To the honor and glory of God, His beloved Son--the Surety, the Substitute--was delivered up and descended into the prisonhouse of the grave. The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. If one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished. But it was only for a little while the divine Vanquisher seemed the vanquished. The serpent had bruised the heel, but Christ could not be holden by death. The stone was rolled away. The Lord Jesus walked forth from His prison house a triumphant, majestic conqueror, and proclaimed over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, "I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25).--Ms. 81, 1893, p. 11. (Diary entry for Sunday, July 2, 1893, Wellington, New Zealand.)

White Estate Washington, D. C. April 27, 1981 {10MR 385.1}

Yes, this is what I believe. What's wrong with this, in your view?

If Christ had sinned, what do you believe would have happened to the human race?

If Christ had sinned, do you believe Christ could have had fellowship with the Father and stood in His presence?

[John317]

sky, the Bible does not teach that creatures will be God or the same as God. The saved will never be able to create and give life to others.

What the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy teach is that the saved will have many of the same qualities as God-- as, for instance, love, patience, kindess, wisdom,etc.--- but we will never be of the same substance or essence as the Godhead. We won't ever be the fullness of the Godhead, as are the Father, the Son , and the Holy Spirit. For instance, the saved won't ever be Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, infinite, etc.

There's a difference between the communicable attributes of God and the incommunicable attributes. God cannot make you Omniponent or Omnicient. But God can give you immortality and eternal life. Those are qualities, not the very essence, of Deity.

So then it is the difference between attributes and essence. We can share in the attributes of God but not in His very essence.

[wayfinder]

When the time came for Michael to become "flesh and blood" He had two mothers who gave Him "birth". One Mother was the Holy Spirit, God, and this is revealed in Revelation 12. One mother was Mary, a flesh and blood human. It was by these two mothers that Michael became Son of God and Son of Man. We have been born of our flesh and blood mothers and are flesh and blood. When we complete the sanctification process we will be born of our Spirit Mother, the Holy Spirit God, and at the time the occurs we will be sons of man and sons of God, as Jesus is Son of Man and Son of God. We will have life in us as God does, but as for creative ability that remains to be seen. We will, like God, know good and evil, and will have triumphed over evil by demonstrating perserverence and commitment to right wisdom(righteousness). My understanding of the word "God" is that it is the "family name" of the One true God. When we are born into this family we will have the family name.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Ellen White UL 48.4

In the smallest as well as the largest matters, the first great question is, What is God's will in the matter; for His will is my will. "To obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams" (1 Sam. 15:22). Who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? One man may be required by God to do a work and stand in a position that is peculiarly trying and taxing. The Lord has a work for him to do and [color:#330000]he risks his life, his future eternal life, in standing in that place. This was the position Christ occupied when He came to our world, entering into conflict with the rebel leader of the fallen angels

Here's the entire paragraph in context:

Quote:

In the smallest as well as the largest matters, the first great question is, What is God's will in the matter; for His will is my will. "To obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams" (1 Samuel 15:22). Who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? One man may be required by God to do a work and stand in a position that is peculiarly trying and taxing. The Lord has a work for him to do and he risks his life, his future eternal life, in standing in that place. This was the position Christ occupied when He came to our world, entering into conflict with the rebel leader of the fallen angels. God devised a plan, and Christ accepted the position. He consented to meet the foe singlehanded, as every human being must do. He was provided with all the heavenly powers to aid Him in this great conflict; and man, if he walked in the way and will of God, is provided with the same keeping power. The same heavenly intelligences minister unto those who shall be heirs of salvation, that they may overcome every temptation, great or small, as Christ overcame. But anyone who places himself in a position of peril from any motive but obedience to the will of God will fall under the power of temptation. . . . {UL 48.4}

No one is secure who thinks it is his privilege to choose for himself.--Letter 22, Feb. 3, 1899, to a businessman. {UL 48.5}

Yes, I believe Christ took a risk in coming here. That shows how much He and the Father love us. Christ could have fallen, but He never did fall because every time He was faced with a decision whether to obey the father or not to obey Him, Christ always chose to obey His heavenly Father.

So, yes, I believe that "God devised a plan, and Christ accepted the position." Jesus the man, had he sinned, would certainly NOT have had eternal life.

[skyblue888]

"Christ had not exchanged His divinity for humanity; but He clothed His divinity in humanity... He did not cease to be God when He became man." 5 B.C.1128,1129.

The humanity of Jesus would have died eternally if Jesus had sinned but His divinity would not have died. "The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless true that 'God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...'" 5 B.C.1129,1130.

"When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been an impossibility." 5 B.C.1113.

"Divinity and humanity were mysterioulsy combined and man and God became one. It is in this union that we find the hope of our fallen race." Ibid,1130.

John, do you get the last sentence? It is IN THIS UNION that we find the hope of our fallen race. MAN AND GOD BECAME ONE. In the redeemed divinity and humanity are mysteriously combined. And somehow, according to you, the redeemed are not sharing Christ's divine nature?

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." E.G. White, The Upward Look, p.18.

If this last quote does not do it for you, what will John?

sky

[John317]

... When we complete the sanctification process we will be born of our Spirit Mother, the Holy Spirit God, and at the time the occurs we will be sons of man and sons of God, as Jesus is Son of Man and Son of God. We will have life in us as God does, but as for creative ability that remains to be seen. ... My understanding of the word "God" is that it is the "family name" of the One true God. When we are born into this family we will have the family name.

Again, never does the Bible refer to the Holy Spirit as feminine or as "mother." On the contrary, it always refers to the Holy Spirit in the neuter or masculine gender. Jesus called the Holy Spiirt by the masculine pronoun.

As for being God, cretures can never be the same as God. Do you believe, for instance, that the saved will be omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, or infinite?

The saved will increasingly become more and more like God-- sharing in the communicable attributes of His character, i.e., the qualities of God-- but that is different from sharing in God's very essence.

It is like saying a dog can be like you in some ways-- sharing in certain human qualities, such as love and affection and self-control-- but it would be foolish to think that a dog could ever share the very essence of humanity.

[John317]

sky, do you believe the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy teach that the saved will ever be Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, or infinite?

Or will humans continually grow in knowledge? Will they always remain finite?

[skyblue888]

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." E.G. White, The Upward Look, p.18.

We cannot even begin to fathom what this means to the redeemed and to God and to the universe. I believe what is revealed but what is not revealed I leave alone.

This is the "unspeakable Gift" the apostle Paul is talking about in 2 Cor.9:15. Let us not belittle it.

"Divinity and humanity were mysterioulsy combined and man and God became one. It is in this union that we find the hope of our fallen race." Ibid,1130.

Get this: "man and God became one."

What a union is this!

We can never fully fathom it.

sky

[John317]

Jesus came not to be God ... but man.

If Jesus as God died - How did He raise Himself up after He as God was dead?

Good question. The answer of course is that Christ's divine nature did not die. God didn't die, only humanity died.