Why Adventists don't agree with the Nicene Creed.

[John317]

Humans will remain humans, though glorified and immortal. They will never be God. God is Omnicent, Omnipresent, Omnicient, and infinitely holy and righteous, and absolutely perfect. God IS love. These man can NEVER BE. God is God by nature, just as humans are human by nature and as dogs are doggish by nature. Just as dogs can never be human or humans doggish, so humans can never be God or divine, although we share in certain qualities of that nature.

Sharing in the qualities of something-- such as in the divine nature-- is not the same as having the very essence of that nature.

For instance, man can have love and exhibit love, but man will never BE love. We will have life-- immortal life, as a gift-- but we will never have life itself in us. This is what Chrrist has:

John 1:4

[4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

This life was in Christ inherently and by nature, which meant that He was able to create life and give life to anyone He chose to give it to.

[skyblue888]

John, I am afraid that as a people we don't understand the glorious Gospel of Christ. We speculate about what is not revealed and what is revealed we totally ignore.

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." The Upward Look, 18.

There is always the danger to reason like the theologians whose words without knowledge only serve to darken the understanding.

Sorry but I can't help saying this.

sky :)

[Gustave]

John317, there was absolutely zero risk in God coming to save us....

...This concept is straight out of the JW and Arian playbook.

...Scripture affirms Salvation was NEVER a matter of "IF".

...It was ONLY ever a matter of when - when WOULD the Saviour come and Save!

You asked me for the 28 texts I told you I had and gave you 29....

...In many cases Jesus speaks of what WILL happen when He comes back.

...This was spoken of long prior to Christ's death on the Cross.

You claim I didn't quote Ellen White in context however this is simply a shibboleth on your part...

...The Context is simply that Ellen affirmed Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation.

...The Council of Nicaea is 100% in the Bibles' corner.

...Did I miss something here John317 - did you offer some Scriptures that say "CHRIST" could have lost His Salvation?

This is the reason the Creed is not affirmed in SDA Churches to this day...

...Simply because IF the Creed was read and looked at SDA's would realize there is a huge problem.

...With Ellen White.

I look forward to your Scripures that teach Christ could have lost His Salvation.

[John317]

John, I am afraid you don't understand the glorious Gospel of Christ.

I'm afraid you are going into areas of spiritualism, which is the problem with accepting Kellogg's views and being unable to see the differences between them and the Bible and the SOP.

Please answer this question:

Will the saved be Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, infinite, and absolutely perfect and holy?

Or will the saved continue to learn and be finite throughout eternity?

The bottom line, sky, is that humans will never be one of the persons of the Trinity. It seems to me that you are again confusing what it means to be God and what it means to share in the qualities, or nature and characteristics, of God. There's a world of difference. Lucifer wasn't content to share in God's attributes; he wanted to BE God.

The Mormons teach that humans will one day be Gods, the same as God the Father. This is false and a dangerous error.

[skyblue888]

Like I said, John, we speculate on what is not revealed and we ignore what is clearly revealed.

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." The Upward Look, 18.

"Christ places His own merits upon man and thus elevates him in the scales of moral value with God." E.G. White, Our Father Cares, p.121.

This is what is revealed.

sky

[John317]

John317, there was absolutely zero risk in God coming to save us....

...This concept is straight out of the JW and Arian playbook.

I happen to believe that the JW are right in some things. Just because the JW teach something is no sign that it is error. They teach many things that are biblical, more so than some other protestant or Orthodox groups.

I believe the Bible shows that Jesus of Nazareth could have sinned. He was free to choose. He did not HAVE to obey His Father. He chose to obey.

Or would you say that the Bible shows Jesus had no choice but to obey the Father?

Were the temptations genuine?

[John317]

Will the saved be Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, infinite, and absolutely perfect and holy?

Or will the saved continue to learn and be finite throughout eternity?

What's your answer?

[karl]

Will the saved be Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, infinite, and absolutely perfect and holy?

Or will the saved continue to learn and be finite throughout eternity?

Finite to infinity and beyond

[John317]

...Scripture affirms Salvation was NEVER a matter of "IF".

...It was ONLY ever a matter of when - when WOULD the Saviour come and Save!

I agree that it was never a matter of "IF" Christ would come to this earth as the Messiah and Savior. But what I am saying is that this Savior was a free moral agent, and as such He made real choices and underwent real temptations and tests. Those would not be real without the possibility that He could have sinned. To say that Christ could not possibly have sinned and had no choice but to obey is not to do the Father any favors. It makes it look like God deceived everyone.

Since when is a test a test if it's foregone conclucion that the person being tested will pass the test? Is that the way it was with the first Adam?

Please answer this last question, yes or no.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Will the saved be Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, infinite, and absolutely perfect and holy?

Or will the saved continue to learn and be finite throughout eternity?

Finite to infinity and beyond

Humans will always be learning and becoming more and more perfect. There will be no stopping point. The saved will never become absolutely perfect, or reach a point where there will be no more learning and no more progress.

This is what makes humans different from Deity. Deity is already perfect and knows all things and is all powerful. Christ is infinitely holy and righteous. Humans will never be. The proof of this is that humans will forever be becoming more and more like Christ and God in their characters, not in their essence. Again, there's a world of difference between quality and essence. Christ is God essentially. Humans will never be God essentially.

[skyblue888]

Please let me go over it again:

I realize that this is a deep truth to consider. But sometimes I get the impression that we speculate in regard to what is not revealed and we ignore what is clearly revealed.

Please look at it again:

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature FAR ABOVE that which Adam forfeited by transgression." E.G. White, The Upward Look, 18.

In order to begin to get a glimpse of what this really means, we need to read this:

"Christ places His own merits upon man and thus elevates him in the scales of moral value with God." E.G. White, Our Father Cares, p.121.

Wow!!!

"The exaltation of the redeemed will be an eternal testimony to God's mercy." Desire of Ages,26.

"By gentle and patient ministry the angels move upon the human spirit, to bring the lost into a fellowship with Christ which is even closer than they themselves can know." D.A.21.

The redeemed will be one with God as Christ is one with the Father. Is this not the "unfathomable gift." 2 Cor.9:15.

If this gift is unfathomable, we cannot speculate as to what it really means but we know that it means that the redeemed will be forever one with Christ and the Father. And this is a marvel to the angels who have never sinned, and their great joy!

"The declaration in His intercessory prayer, that the Father's love is as great toward us as toward Himself, the only-begotten Son, and that we shall be with Him where He is, forever one with Christ and the Father, is a marvel to the heavenly host, and it is their great joy." E.G. White, Testimonies to Ministers, p.18.

Somewhere else she quotes Isaiah 9:6 "Unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace," and then says, "Does not that say that I and my Father are one?" F.W.75.

What a union is this?

"He gave Him not only to bear our sins, and to die as our sacrifice; He gave Him to the fallen race." D.A.25.

And "In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."

Col.2:9,10; Eph.3:14-19.

Is this not the glorious gospel of the blessed God?

sky

This experience can be ours now as by faith we appropriate the merits of the Son of God as it is our privilege to claim them for Jesus was treated according to our demerits that we might be treated according to His merits. See D.A.25.

[karl]

The proof of this is that humans will forever be becoming more and more like Christ and God in their characters, not in their essence. Again, there's a world of difference between quality and essence. Christ is God essentially. Humans will never be God essentially.

Yes, but as I near retirement, I am planning to be essentially non-essential.

[John317]

...You asked me for the 28 texts I told you I had and gave you 29....

...In many cases Jesus speaks of what WILL happen when He comes back.

...This was spoken of long prior to Christ's death on the Cross.

I think this is your problem: you are assuming that because Jesus spoke of what will happen when He comes back, it means that there was no risk that Jesus could have sinned. But that argument doesn't hold.

All those promsies were based on the condition that Christ would fulfill the Father's will and obey all of His commandments, and Christ could have done differently than He did. He made real choices. He didn't HAVE to do what He did.

We need to remember that when the pre-incarnate Christ inspired the prophets to write the promises of His first and His second coming, and of His dying and resurrection-- all of these promises were inspired by the eternal, infinite Son of God; but as a human being, Jesus of Nazareth in and of Himself was not all-knowing. He was a real man and he grew and developed like a normal human being. He relied completely on the Father for everything, including His knowledge of the future. As He Himself said, "Of mine own self, I can do nothing." The secret of Christ's victory was that He relied completely upon His Father every minute of his earthly ministry.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The proof of this is that humans will forever be becoming more and more like Christ and God in their characters, not in their essence. Again, there's a world of difference between quality and essence. Christ is God essentially. Humans will never be God essentially.

Yes, but as I near retirement, I am planning to be essentially non-essential.

Hey don't do that! You'll find yourself without purpose or direction. Dont' retire. You can't get tired without being re-tired. lol

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

How then do we reconcile His unfallen human nature with being 'in all points tested as we are'?

Check the Greek Bravus, Christ WAS tempted in all points exactly like us BY or OF The DEVIL...

...This relates to the frail condition of the human body ( pain, sick, hunger, thirst, etc)

...Jesus was NOT EVER tempted within Himself to sin.

How does the Greek help you there, Gustave? Please parse it and show us your exegesis.

Hebrews 4:15

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Doesn't it say that Christ was tempted in every respect just as we fallen humans are?

What is the Greek for "just as"? What does it mean?

How are we fallen humans tempted? It says that Jesus was tempted in every way just as we are, not as the pre-Fall Adam was tempted.

Here's how the Bible says we are tempted:

James 1:14-15

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. [15] Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

For what purpose was Christ so tempted?

Hebrews 2:17-18

Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [18] For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

[John317]

...You claim I didn't quote Ellen White in context however this is simply a shibboleth on your part...

...The Context is simply that Ellen affirmed Christ could have sinned and lost His Salvation.

You claimed that Ellen White teaches that Christ "mutates." I haven't see those quotes. Does she say that?

Could you please show some quotes of her's which you believe teach what you are saying? I've never thought of it in terms of "mutating."

I have never-- nor has the SDA church-- ever denied that Ellen White says Christ could have sinned. This is a well-known fact, and one that the church believes it is right to stand by.

[John317]

Like I said, John, we speculate on what is not revealed and we ignore what is clearly revealed.

"It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ's nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." The Upward Look, 18.

"Christ places His own merits upon man and thus elevates him in the scales of moral value with God." E.G. White, Our Father Cares, p.121.

This is what is revealed.

sky

None of those statements say that creatures become God, do they?

What does it mean to "possess Christ's nature"?

Does it mean we become a part of the Trinity?

Does it mean we are the perfect copy of the very image of God's being (as Christ is said to be in Hebrews 1: 3)?

I'm surprised that you evidently are unable to see the distinction between Christ's essence and Christ's qualities or attributes.

It's like the difference between the essence of humanity and the attributes of humanity. A monkey has certain attributes of humanity but a monkey will never have very essence of humanity. Do you see the differnce? Christ is the very essence of God because He is God. Humans will never be God, although the saved will be like God in many ways.

The Bible itself distinguishes between these things. See Col. 2: 9, for instance. That verse is speaking of the very essence of the Godhead, as opposed to the quality.

[John317]

...I look forward to your Scripures that teach Christ could have lost His Salvation.

Let's start with this:

Are you looking for a verse that says, "Christ could have sinned"?

Or one that says, "Christ could have lost His salvation"?

Of course, as I'm sure you realize, the Bible need not make direct statements such as this in order to contain the concept. Similarly, the Bible doesn't make a direct statement about the Trinity, although the concept is taught there.

What is the basis of your denial that Christ could have sinned?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ had no choice but to obey the Father? Or was Jesus of Nazareth a free moral agent with the ability to make genuine choices?

[wayfinder]

John 10:30 NAS

"I and the Father are one."

When Jesus made this statement, and others like it, was He stating that He and the Father are one in essence and nature? Was He saying that they are one in nature only, or one in essence only? If He was saying one in essence and nature then how would you understand this request.

John 17:11 NAS

"I am no longer in the world ; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.

John 17:21 NAS

that they may all be one ; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

What is clear to me from the forgoing texts is, Christ is asking His Father to make His disciples, the eleven and those who will believe in the truth through "their words", one with Him(Father) as He(Christ) is one with Him, there is no subordination of persons in this request. To be one with God is to have the "nature" and essence" that is God. When we are born anew(from above) we are no longer what we were before. I used the term "Mother" because that is the "symbol" used in Revelation 12:17 for the one who is giving birth to the "last offspring" of God.

[John317]

...The Council of Nicaea is 100% in the Bibles' corner.

If you're talking about the First Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, held in 325, it was initiated by the Emperor, Constantine, and therefore has no authority whatsoever as far as Seventh-day Adventists are concerned. It was the beginning of the church riding on the back of the state, where the civil power controls the church and enforces matters that are the prerogatives of the church alone.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: John317

I happen to believe that the JW are right in some things. Just because the JW teach something is no sign that it is error. They teach many things that are biblical, more so than some other protestant or Orthodox groups.

I believe the Bible shows that Jesus of Nazareth could have sinned. He was free to choose. He did not HAVE to obey His Father. He chose to obey.

You choose to believe it because Ellen White promulgated it despite the fact Scripture says it was impossible...

...This demonstrates, at least in this case, that the Creed is fully compliant with the Bible.

...While the Arianism contained within Jehovah's Witness & SDA theology is NOT.

...So far you've just offered what "you" believe and offered not one text to support it.

Originally Posted By: John317

Or would you say that the Bible shows Jesus had no choice but to obey the Father?

Jesus was / is God & the Bible no where even remotely suggests Jesus was a God apart from "God"...

...The Bible affirms our Salvation was "assured" in Christ before creation itself.

...The Arian Rubric affirms Christ really wasn't the Christ UNTIL the atonement took place.

...According to Scripture this is 100% heretical.

Originally Posted By: John317

Were the temptations genuine?

[/quote

This questions only shows that within Adventist groups ( JW's, Christadelphians, WWCOG & SDA ) a colossial misunderstanding of Scripture exists...

...Of course Satan really "tempted Christ" - I'll try to show you how this took place.

Jesus was tempted 'of' or 'by' the Devil and if we believe the Bible Satan himself came to do this...

...The grave error Arian theology makes is impregnating Christ with CONCUPISCENCE.

...Which is the requirement to make the Arian or the Adventist rubric work.

If we base our Doctrine from the Sacred Scriptures we can let the Bible instruct us how it was possible that Christ was tempted...

...The following is the teaching of Scripture.

Every man is tempted when that man is DRAWN away by HIS OWN lust......

...That is, the "SIN" already within the man is what causes him to be ATTRACTED to the sin.

If someone walked up to you John and said; 'hey John, let's shoot some heroin and rob the liquor store down the street"....

...My guess is that you would NOT be tempted to go along with that.

...However the fact remains that you WERE indeed tempted "BY" or "OF" the guy who walked up to you and offered to do drugs and rob!

In each and every case THIS was what was going on with Jesus - He was not ONCE ever tempted...

...So that it would have been said Jesus resisted "His own lust" for if Jesus did resist His own lust.

...You can take it to the bank Jesus was NEVER "The Christ" and that defaults into Jesus NEVER being God.

When the Bible says Jesus was the Lamb slain from the Foundations of the world....

...It means that "God" was ALWAYS the ONLY ONE who was going to save humanity by HIS WORKS.

...Arian theology requires that Scripture itself be ignorned in favor of an Alien concept.

...That God's promised SALVATION was conditional on "GOD" meeting the conditions!

...That, without a doubt is most grave heresy.

Bible = Salvation was ONLY a matter of WHEN, it was never a matter of "IF".

Arianism = Salvation was "conditional" provided that "creature" could meet the conditions.

Because Adventism was built on the foundation of Arianism and Ellen had already provided prophetic utterance on this issue...

...SDAism was required to keep this concept as part of it's theology to protect Ellen's status as a "prophet".

...This is why the Nicene Creed is rejected within SDA or any other Adventist body of belivers.

Here are some SDA examples:

Originally Posted By: Adventis Review and Herald April 17 1883

*Question to the Editor:

Will you please favor me with those scriptures which plainly say that

Christ is a created being ? J. c.

*ANSWER :

You are mistaken in supposing that S. D. Adventists teach that Christ was ever created. They believe, on the contrary, that he was "begotten" of the Father, and that he can properly be called God and worshiped as such. They believe, also, that the worlds, and everything which is, was created by Christ in conjunction with the Father. They believe, however, that somewhere in the eternal ages of the past there was a point at which Christ came into existence. They think that it is necessary that God should have antedated Christ in his being, in order that Christ could have been begotten of him, and sustain to him the relation of son*. They hold to the distinct personality of the Father and Son, *rejecting as absurd that feature of Trinitarianisna which insists that God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three persons, and yet but one person. S. D Adventists hold that God and Christ are one in the sense that Christ prayed that his disciples might be one *; i. e.,* one in spirit, purpose, and labor*. See " Fundamental Principles of S. D.Adventists," published at this Office. Price, 4 cts.

There is a truckload of such statements to be found in the Sabbath School lesson study...

...And even more within the SDA publications such as the Review and others.

...You will notice the last couple sentences of that quote IS a direct quote from Ellen White.

...Who promulgated that man could have the same keeping power which allowed Christ to "not sin".

Please John, if you have any questions about how Jesus could have tempted please ask me...

...I believe I have a good grasp of this issue and I can offer many more Scriptures.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...I look forward to your Scripures that teach Christ could have lost His Salvation.

Let's start with this:

Are you looking for a verse that says, "Christ could have sinned"?

Or one that says, "Christ could have lost His salvation"?

Of course, as I'm sure you realize, the Bible need not make direct statements such as this in order to contain the concept. Similarly, the Bible doesn't make a direct statement about the Trinity, although the concept is taught there.

What is the basis of your denial that Christ could have sinned?

Do you believe that Jesus Christ had no choice but to obey the Father? Or was Jesus of Nazareth a free moral agent with the ability to make genuine choices?

We both know there is no such Scripture which directly affirms Christ could have lost His Salvation....

...What you have been called out to do is find ANY support from Scripture that what you affirm is possible.

...Simply produce a text and show how your premise is within the teaching of Scripture.

...Or show how my texts don't really say what they actually do.

Please, don't use the JW argument that Salvation was "conditional" on Michael the archangel meeting the conditions!

[John317]

This is the reason the Creed is not affirmed in SDA Churches to this day...

...Simply because IF the Creed was read and looked at SDA's would realize there is a huge problem.

...With Ellen White.

The real reason the SDA Church does not and will not affirm the creeds, including the Nicene Creed is, first of all, NOT because we disagree with it but because we are opposed to creeds in principle. That's why I say, it wouldn't matter if we agreed with it; our decision would be the same. Our doctines must come directly from the Scripture and not from a creed.

A second reason for our rejection of creeds is that from the SDA perspective, they have often been abused.

A third reason is that once creeds are writtten, there is no changing them, even when they are shown to be imperfect or wrong in the light of further Bible study under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. You'll notice that our Fundamental Beliefs say directly that they are subject to change when the church finds greater truth or learns a better way of expressing those truths.

[John317]

Please, don't use the JW argument that Salvation was "conditional" on Michael the archangel meeting the conditions!

The condition of our salvtion was that Christ obey all of His Father's commands, which is the same thing as saying Christ could not have succeeded if he'd sinned. That's extremely important.

As a church, we do believe that Michael the Archangel is another name for the pre-incarnate Christ.

But unlike the Jws, we don't believe that Jesus was merely an angel or that He had been created.

Archangel really means leader or head of the angels. The angels belong to Christ since it was he who made them.

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...You asked me for the 28 texts I told you I had and gave you 29....

...In many cases Jesus speaks of what WILL happen when He comes back.

...This was spoken of long prior to Christ's death on the Cross.

I think this is your problem: you are assuming that because Jesus spoke of what will happen when He comes back, it means that there was no risk that Jesus could have sinned. But that argument doesn't hold.

All those promsies were based on the condition that Christ would fulfill the Father's will and obey all of His commandments, and Christ could have done differently than He did. He made real choices. He didn't HAVE to do what He did.

We need to remember that when the pre-incarnate Christ inspired the prophets to write the promises of His first and His second coming, and of His dying and resurrection-- all of these promises were inspired by the eternal, infinite Son of God; but as a human being, Jesus of Nazareth in and of Himself was not all-knowing. He was a real man and he grew and developed like a normal human being. He relied completely on the Father for everything, including His knowledge of the future. As He Himself said, "Of mine own self, I can do nothing." The secret of Christ's victory was that He relied completely upon His Father every minute of his earthly ministry.