Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[John317]

Paul stated with the greatest possible emphasis that the only Doctrine he would preach about was "Christ crucified". Why?, because that was the WHOLE GOSPEL!

If all Christ had done was to be nailed to a cross and die, you and I would still perish in our sins without a speck of hope.

According to Paul's own testimony, Christ's crucifixion was most definitely not the whole of the good news.

Amazing!

ABSOLUTELY Amazing!!

[Sonny]

If all Christ had done was to be nailed to a cross and die, you and I would still perish in our sins without a speck of hope.

"The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. I present before you the great, grand monument of mercy and regeneration, salvation and redemption--the Son of God uplifted on the cross" (Gospel Workers, p. 315.)

[BobRyan]

If all Christ had done was to be nailed to a cross and die, you and I would still perish in our sins without a speck of hope.

According to Paul's own testimony, Christ's crucifixion was most definitely not the whole of the good news.

True - and that explains why Paul spends so much time on the resurrection of Christ in 1Cor 15 and so much time on the High Priestly heavenly ministry of Christ in Heb 4,7,8,9,10...

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

True - and that explains why Paul spends so much time on the resurrection of Christ in 1Cor 15 and so much time on the High Priestly heavenly ministry of Christ in Heb 4,7,8,9,10...

Amen. Because what Christ is doing right now is as important for our salvation as what He did on the cross. It was absolutely necesary for Christ to ascend to heaven and become our mediator in the heavenly sanctuary above.

The true gospel is about much more than the act of dying on the cross. That was critical and even central, but without the resurrection, the ascension and the mediation of Christ, He could never return for His purified church.

[Sonny]

The true gospel is about much more than the act of dying on the cross. That was critical and even central, but without the resurrection, the ascension and the mediation of Christ, He could never return for His purified church.

John, the cross is the central theme....All other truths point back to the cross, period. Read that EGW statement once again:

"The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. I present before you the great, grand monument of mercy and regeneration, salvation and redemption--the Son of God uplifted on the cross" (Gospel Workers, p. 315.)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The true gospel is about much more than the act of dying on the cross. That was critical and even central, but without the resurrection, the ascension and the mediation of Christ, He could never return for His purified church.

John, the cross is the central theme....All other truths point back to the cross, period. Read that EGW statement once again:

"The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. I present before you the great, grand monument of mercy and regeneration, salvation and redemption--the Son of God uplifted on the cross" (Gospel Workers, p. 315.)

I didn't say the cross is not the central theme. Yes, of course it is. I said that there is more to the gospel than the fact that Christ died on the cross. That was not the complete atonement. His death was a complete and perfect sacrifice, never to be repeated, but Christ's death did not complete the atonement.

Read the quote again, especially the part in red.

[miz3]

John317,

The "Sanctuary Doctrine" will not save you; the "Investigative Judgment Doctrine" will not save you, the "2300 days Doctrine" will not save you, the Doctrine of the "Sabbath" will not save you, etc.!

The only Doctrine that brings SALVATION TO LOST SOULS is:

JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED!

That is why it, and it alone is the Gospel.

It appears that such things are too simple for SDA. Paul was correct in his assessment in 1Corinthians 1:18-31 quoted in previous post.

The Resurrection is not a separate Doctrine from the Cross. These are not two separate Doctrines or concepts. They are ONE DOCTRINE!

However, the same cannot be said for:

the sanctuary, the 2300 days, the investigative judgment, the Sabbath, the state of the dead, etc. These things are not the Gospel!

Even Ellen White agrees with me.

"The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. I present before you the great, grand monument of mercy and regeneration, salvation and redemption--the Son of God uplifted on the cross" (Gospel Workers, p. 315.)

Either it is or it isn't.

No one IS saying there are not other things about Truth to know.

What I am saying is that the Cross of Jesus Christ is the center around which everything else revolves!

I am also saying that SDA don't follow this STANDARD!

SDA make the sanctuary doctrine, the 2300 days, the investigative judgment, their status as the remnant of the remnant their gospel. As such they attempt to make the whole world SDA.

To SDA anything less than making one SDA is a failure. That to me is STUNNING ARROGANCE!

[miz3]

The good news of Jesus Christ includes more than Christ's death on the cross 2,000 year ago. That is a static gospel if that is all it is. Christ is a living Savior, not a dead one. The gospel includes His resurrection, His ascension, and His mediation for us.

Your own quote indicts you. You are adding to the Gospel when you add, "the ascension" and the "mediation" etc.

Paul never added such things to the Gospel.

Does that mean we are to never mention those other items.

Of course not!

But lets be clear "The Cross" only is the Gospel. No additions or take a ways.

Yes, John317, that is all the Gospel is! God did not make it complicated, yet the Cross alone is indeed very dynamic in the lives of those who know it without takeaways or additions. This is precisely why Paul says that it is foolishness to those who do not "believe" that, that it is all there is!

This why SDA have missed it!

[miz3]

John317,

Just for the record my NIV in Revelation 14:7 says, "has come". Regardless, they both mean the same thing. The first angel announces that judgment is here right now.

The question is, "when is right now"?

When the Bible speaks of the right now, does it mean at the moment when the reader reads it? If that were the case then judgment already took place when Martin Luther read the text. Next week when my neighbor for the first time reads this text then that is also when the judgment takes place.

So which is it?

1. Has the event already taken place (Martin Luther).

2. Is the event yet to take place (my neighbor).

It would be proper to state that this text meets its fulfillment when the reader of the text reads the text and hears God's message. Thus, judgment would be when the reader reads this text. Therefore, judgment has been happening all along and will continue going on.

NOT 1844! NO INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT! NO SANCTUARY MOVEMENT!

Another way to look at this text would be to see that all three Angels are giving a Present message. That means all three messages are happening almost, if not exactly, at the same time.

That means for instance, that judgment comes when Babylon falls and the third angels prediction of punishment will happen.

The question then is, "When did Babylon fall?

Is the falling of Babylon, a past event, a present event, or a future event?

Depending on your answer to Babylon's fall that will also be the time of judgment stated by the first Angel.

You see the first and second Angel happen at the same time and the third Angel predicts the punishment of those who do not heed the first and second Angels.

Its all very simple, John317.

NO INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT! NO 1844! NO SANCTUARY MOVEMENT!

It is just a judgment which God has said all along He will do.

The Three Angels and their message is the same message that has existed since Genesis 3:15. It is not some "NEW" Gospel given to some "last" day Church.

You are reading into the text things that are not present in the text itself.

Unless there is some "outside" of the Bible "source" that tells us otherwise this text does not say what you say it does.

In that case such an "outside source" would then be the basis for such a new Doctrine and this "New Doctrine" would not be the Bible and the Bible only!

It would be [the "outside source" and the Bible] because using the Bible and the Bible only would never lead one to conclude what you have concluded.

In addition the "GOSPEL OF THE FIRST ANGEL":

1. Fear God.

2. Give God glory.

3. God is the Judge and He will judge whether you feared Him and whether you gave Him glory.

4. Worship the Creator.

That is the Gospel of the First Angel.

NO INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT! NO 1844! NO SANCTUARY MOVEMENT!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

But lets be clear "The Cross" only is the Gospel. No additions or take a ways.

Yes, John317, that is all the Gospel is! God did not make it complicated, yet the Cross alone is indeed very dynamic in the lives of those who know it without takeaways or additions. This is precisely why Paul says that it is foolishness to those who do not "believe" that, that it is all there is!

I thought the Gospel was the Good News. The cross standing alone without the resurrection and Christ's mediation for us would mean nothing.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

SDA make the sanctuary doctrine, the 2300 days, the investigative judgment, their status as the remnant of the remnant their gospel. As such they attempt to make the whole world SDA.

To SDA anything less than making one SDA is a failure. That to me is STUNNING ARROGANCE!

What kind of SDA's have *you* been palling around with? I've been around a long time, some of it as an Adventist, some years quite the opposite....but I've never had the impression that there was a holier-than-thou attitude amongst most Adventists...no more so than any other denomination.

[miz3]

rudywoofs,

The mediation of Jesus Christ is not part of the Gospel. You are adding to the Word of God in order to suit your own false purposes and your false premises.

All I can do is to share the Truth with you and hope that God will convict your heart and then you will know the Truth.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

You are adding to the Word of God in order to suit your own false purposes and your false premises.

no, I'm not. You are bearing false witness against me. Stop it.

[Sonny]

The mediation of Jesus Christ is not part of the Gospel.

Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you [where?] in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him [God] holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Please note that Christ presents you perfect in Himself. What He accomplished by His birth, life, death & resurrection are being used now in the heavenly courts.

If your faith is in Christ you stand perfect, not in yourself, but in Him. That's because of what He did 2000 years ago.

[Woody]

Wow. That's good news Sonny. Thanks for sharing that.

[Sonny]

Any agape experienced in your life is the result of resting in Christ's finished works.

Eph 2:4 because of his great [agape] love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Please note that God, in Christ, saved you in His humanity while you unconverted and lost.

6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

When God raised Christ He raised you in Christ's glorified life. You have a new glorified life in the 2nd Adam.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

We have to accept the gift no strings attached. It's a free gift, but because God won't force it on us (agape can't coerce) we must accept His completed work by faith alone. We can't add to His perfect works by our works. This would allow us to boast if we could.

10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works [genuine works from agape love], which God prepared for us to do.

The only way to experience agape is recognize the impossibility of creature merit. We must have the assurance of His love and complete salvation. Only then can we begin to grow in grace. This is the evidence of our faith.

[miz3]

Sonny,

"Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.'

Colossians 1:21-23.

1. I agree with Woody that this is a great and wonderful promise. That should be us so much comfort!

2. This text is NOT talking about "mediation".

3. It is a STATEMENT OF FACT NOT A STATEMENT OF PROCESS.

4. Paul is saying that Jesus presents us as His trophies of what He (Jesus) did on the Cross and at the Resurrection.

5. NO 1844! NO INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT! NO 2300 DAYS!

6. Just Jesus Christ and His death and resurrection. THE GOSPEL!

[miz3]

Sonny,

Again, you have given us another great Bible text!

Unfortunately, your analysis is faulty!

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Ephesians 2:1-10.

1. Verses 1-3 state that you and I and every other human once belonged evil and were slaves to evil.

2. Verses 4-6 states that because of God's great love and mercy for us He, God, made us alive "with" Jesus Christ and seated us with Jesus Christ in Heaven. THE FATHER IS DOING ALL THE ACTION HERE, NO ONE ELSE!

3. Verse 7 states that what God did in #2 above was because He (God the Father) would be able to "BOAST" in the future about His (God the Father) GRACE!

4. Verse 8 states that the GRACE in #3 above is what has saved us (nothing else saved us). It also states that because of our FAITH----A FAITH WE DID NOT MAKE OURSELVES BUT GOD GAVE US THIS FAITH AS A GIFT!

5. Thus, verses 7 and 8 state that God the Father SAVED US by giving us the gifts of GRACE and FAITH!

6. Verse 9 states that we received these TWIN GIFTS from God the Father so that neither you nor I (or anyone else) can boast.

7. Verse 10 states the reason we cannot boast. It is because we are God the Father's WORKMANSHIP!

8. Verse 10 also states that God the Father prepared us in advance of what Jesus Christ did on the Cross and in the Resurrection to "do good works".

9. In other words God the Father knew that Jesus Christ would be successful so God the Father poured out on all of us humans His Grace and His Faith and the ability to "do good works".

NOW THAT IS WHAT THE TEXT SPEAKS, Sonny!

READ IT CAREFULLY!

1. NO mediatory work!

2. NO 1844!

3. NO 2300 days!

4. NO sanctuary movement!

5. NO investigative judgment!

[Sonny]

This text is NOT talking about "mediation".

But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

[Sonny]

Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. 16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

[Sonny]

Sonny,

Again, you have given us another great Bible text!

Unfortunately, your analysis is faulty!

I wasn't trying to prove mediation - I was emphasizing our position in Christ to prove our need of assurance.

[miz3]

Sonny,

On my part, I was not trying to prove that "mediation" did not exist because "mediation" does in fact exist.

I was only trying to point out that "mediation" is not the gospel!

To me the Life, Death, and Resurrection (the Cross) are the Gospel!

Are their other things of Truth that are important? Yes! However, they are not the Gospel!

Thank you Sonny for reminding us that in Jesus Christ we do have ASSURANCE OF SALVATION!

Unfortunately many worry about this when there is no need to worry.

[John317]

John317,

The "Sanctuary Doctrine" will not save you; the "Investigative Judgment Doctrine" will not save you, the "2300 days Doctrine" will not save you, the Doctrine of the "Sabbath" will not save you, etc.!

The only Doctrine that brings SALVATION TO LOST SOULS is:

JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED!

That is why it, and it alone is the Gospel.

No one is saying that we are saved by the Sabbath or the sancuary doctrine or by the Investigative Dctrine. We are not saved by doctrine, period. We are also not saved by the doctrine of righteousness by faith or by the Bible or by any of Paul's letters or by any of the Gospels. We are saved by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

[John317]

John317,

Just for the record my NIV in Revelation 14:7 says, "has come". Regardless, they both mean the same thing. The first angel announces that judgment is here right now.

The Greek verb is elthen, which is aorist, active, indicative, third person singular. The lexicon form (present tense, first person indicative) is erchomai (Strongs#2064).

The significance is that the judgment did not come in John's day, nor does the judgment come after Christ's return, but it comes prior to the the return of Christ. That much is certain.

John is pointing to a future time (from the point of view of his day) when a message will be preached throughout the world that the judgment of God has come.

The message is not the judgment will come (future) but that it has come and is a present reality. The indicative mood shows that the judgment is not potential but is actual and is already happening.

[John317]

Just for the record my NIV in Revelation 14:7 says, "has come". Regardless, they both mean the same thing. The first angel announces that judgment is here right now.

You're right that Rev. 14: 7 means that the judgment is here right now. That is exactly right.

Originally Posted By: miz3

The question is, "when is right now"?

When the Bible speaks of the right now, does it mean at the moment when the reader reads it?

No. We know this is not the case because the judgment hadn't come in the time of John or Paul. The judgment was yet future at the time John wrote the book of Revelation.

Acts 17:31

because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

Acts 24:25

And as he reasoned about righteousness and self-control and the coming judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, "Go away for the present. When I get an opportunity I will summon you."

Romans 3:4

By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,

"That you may be justified in your words,

and prevail when you are judged."

NOTE: the above verses prove that the judgment had not yet taken place or begun in the time of Paul. The judgment was still future.

Originally Posted By: miz3

If that were the case then judgment already took place when Martin Luther read the text. Next week when my neighbor for the first time reads this text then that is also when the judgment takes place.

The judgment it refers to hadn't begun in John's day (100 AD) or in Martin Luther's day (1500s).

We know this because the context of the verse is a short time before Christ returns. The messages are given in verses 6-12 of chapter 14, and the very next thing recorded is the second coming of Jesus Christ. Read verse 14-20.

The purpose of thet three angels messages are, first, to warn people of the mark of the beast and the seven last plagues, and second, to prepare the world for Christ's second coming. These messages produce the people described in Rev. 14: 12-- those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus are protected against receiving the mark of the beast and the seven last plagues.

Originally Posted By: miz3

So which is it?

1. Has the event already taken place (Martin Luther).

No, it has already been shown that this could not be. See abov e.

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. Is the event yet to take place (my neighbor).

This judgment is going on right now. It began in 1844, at the end of the 2300 day prophecy, at which time the sanctuary was to be cleansed, or purified. There was only one sanctuary at that time, and that was in heaven. Both Moses and John saw it. See Hebrews 8: 5; Rev. 11: 19.

Hebrews 8: 1-2 and 9: 11-15, 23 prove that there is a literal sanctuary in heaven where Christ ministers as our mediator.

Daniel 7 provides the proof that there is a judgment that takes place in that sanctuary. And it takes place while the little-horn power is active in opposing God on the earth. We know that this occurs after the time of John and a relatively short time before the second coming of Christ.

Originally Posted By: miz3

It would be proper to state that this text meets its fulfillment when the reader of the text reads the text and hears God's message. Thus, judgment would be when the reader reads this text. Therefore, judgment has been happening all along and will continue going on.

This is proved to be false by the simple fact that the judgment is announced at the time of the fall of spiritual Babylon in order to warn people against receiving the Mark of the Beast. Why? Because people who receive the mark of the Best receive the seven last plagues. These plagues come only a short time before Christ's return in glory. See Rev. 15 and 16.

The proclaimation of the three angels messages result in the "saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" of Rev. 14: 12. Compare Rev. 12: 17 for additional marks of identification.