Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

May 5, 2011

Originally Posted By: miz3

But lets be clear "The Cross" only is the Gospel. No additions or take a ways.

Yes, John317, that is all the Gospel is! God did not make it complicated, yet the Cross alone is indeed very dynamic in the lives of those who know it without takeaways or additions. This is precisely why Paul says that it is foolishness to those who do not "believe" that, that it is all there is!

I thought the Gospel was the Good News. The cross standing alone without the resurrection and Christ's mediation for us would mean nothing.

You are right, Pam. The cross is Christ's perfect sacrifice for us, but without the resurrection and His ascension to the heavenly sanctuary, there would be no second coming and no resurrection of the saints. The whole reason Chrsit lived and died for us was to be our mediator and give us the Holy Spirit and to strengthen us in our time of need. See Heb. 4:16.

Hebrews 4:16

Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

This is certainly all a part of the good news of Jesus Christ. We serve a living Savior, not a dead one. He is risen and ascended and is a very present help to us.

May 5, 2011

Please note that God, in Christ, saved you in His humanity while you unconverted and lost.

It's true that Christ died for us before we were born, that that is not the same as saying we are saved before we are born. Paul never told people that they were saved before they were born. He told people they would be saved through faith in Christ. People are saved by God's grace "through faith in Chrsit." Justification is by faith. There is no justification apart from faith in Christ.

Originally Posted By: sonny

6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

Isn't the above-- raising us up with Christ and seating us with him in the heavenly places --- part of the Good News of Jesus Christ?

May 5, 2011

NOT 1844! NO INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT! NO SANCTUARY MOVEMENT!

This is a conclusion based on faulty exegesis, as I've shown in my previous posts.

Here is some of the biblical evidence for the date of 1844 as the beginning of the Investigative Judgment:

The Judgment

How many must meet the test of the judgment?

"I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked." Eccl. 3:17.

Will any besides the human family be judged?

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude 6.

With which class will the judgment begin?

- With the righteous.

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

Out of what will they be judged?

"A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him; thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him; the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Dan. 7:10.

Will there be a resurrection of all the dead?

"For the hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28 (Acts 24:15).

What first occurs when the voice of Christ is heard?

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first." 1 Thess. 4:16.

In what condition are the saints when raised from the dead?

"For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." 1 Cor. 15:52.

Are the righteous and the wicked raised together?

"And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." Rev. 20:4, 5.

Why have these been separated from the others before the voice of Christ is heard?

"But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage." Luke 20:35.

What takes place with the living righteous at the second advent?

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump." 1 Cor. 15:51, 52; 1 Thess. 4:16, 17.

Why are these separated from among the living wicked, and thus changed?

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may he accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:36.

How far will this investigation of cases extend?

"For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." Eccl. 12:24 (Matt. 12:36, 37).

When and where are the open and the secret things recorded?

"Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for them that feared the lord, and that thought upon His name." Mal. 3:16 (Rev. 20:12).

By whom is this record made?

"Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?" Eccl. 5:6 (Matt. 18:10).

Who opens the judgment, and presides over it?

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit... A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him; thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him; the judgment was set, and the books were opened." Dan. 7:9, 10.

Who ministers to the Lord, and assists in the judgment?

"Thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him." Dan. 7:10. "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." Rev. 5:11.

Who else is brought before the Father at this time?

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him." Dan. 7:13.

What is Christ's special work there before the Father and His angels?

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." Rev. 3:5.

NOTE. - We have learned that during this judgment scene the dead are still in their graves. The record of each one's life, however, is in the books in heaven, and by the record their characters are well known. These records were made by the angels, who are there to present them as the names of those who have professed to be Christ's followers are called from the book of life (Rev. 20:12). Christ is also there to appear in behalf of those who have chosen Him as their advocate. (1 John 2:1). He presents His blood, as He appeals for their sins to be blotted from the books of remembrance (Mal. 3:16). Those sins of which they had repented were forgiven when they confessed them (Acts 3:19-21); but they could not be blotted out until by a final examination of their life record it should be known that they had repented of all their sins, and were finally overcomers. If this is the case, then their names are confessed in the judgment. But if it is seen that though running well for a time (Gal. 5:7), they did not overcome, then instead of confessing their names before the Father and His angels, and blotting out their sins, Christ will blot out their names from the book of life (Rev. 3:5). As the place of judgment is in heaven, where the throne of God is, and as Christ is present in person, it conclusively follows that the work of judgment is also in heaven. All are judged by the record of their lives, and thus answer for the deeds done in the body. It is easy to see that such a work will not only decide forever the cases of the dead, but will also close the probation of all who are living, after which Christ will come to take to Himself those who are found to be loyal to Him.

Where will Christ receive His kingdom?

"And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him." Dan. 7:14 (Luke 19:12, 15) (Rev. 11:15).

When He comes to earth, what title will He bear?

"And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written King of Kings, and Lord of Lords." Rev. 19:16.

What will be His mission to the earth?

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works." Matt. 16:27 (Rev. 22:12).

Where will the Saviour take His people?

"In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:2, 3.

During the one thousand years that intervene between the two resurrections, what will the saints do?

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned [in the sense of judging] with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 20:4.

Who will thus be judged by the saints?

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world [the wicked]? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" 1 Cor. 6:2, 3 (Dan. 7:21, 22).

NOTE. - As the names of the wicked were not found in the book of life at the time of the investigative judgment, before the second coming of Christ, it was known that they were not "worthy" of eternal life; but the degree of punishment that they should receive is left for Christ and His saints to decide during the one thousand years before the second resurrection. The wicked angels, also, are to be judged at this time, in the same manner.

When will the saints judge the world?

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come." 1 Cor. 4:5.

How will the decision of the saints be executed?

"And out of His [Christ's] mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." Rev. 19:15.

Why is the execution of the judgment thus given to Christ?

"For as the Father hath life in Himself , so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself; and hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man." John 5:26, 27.

How will the opening of the investigative judgment be made known to the world?

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." Rev. 14:6, 7.

NOTE. - It is seen that there are two phases of the judgment brought to view in the Scriptures, the investigative and the executive. The investigative judgment takes place in heaven before Christ comes, in order to ascertain who are worthy to be raised in the first resurrection, at His coming, and who among the living are "accounted worthy" to be changed in the "twinkling of an eye," at the sounding of the last trump. It is necessary, therefore, for the investigative judgment to take place before the second advent, as there will be no opportunity for such a work to be done between the coming of Christ and the raising of the righteous dead, who are to be clothed with immortality in the act of rising from the grave. The executive judgment of the wicked occurs after the extent of punishment which they are to receive has been decided by the saints who were raised to sit on thrones of judgment (Rev. 20:4, 5) during, the thousand years (1 Cor. 6:1-3). The investigative judgment is that which is announced to the world by the angel's message of Rev. 14:6, 7.

http://www.projectrestore.com/library/biblereadings/br049.htm

May 5, 2011

"Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christs physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.'
Colossians 1:21-23.

2. This text is NOT talking about "mediation".

3. It is a STATEMENT OF FACT NOT A STATEMENT OF PROCESS.

Sanctification is a process.

1 Thes. 5:23

Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thes. 4:7

For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.

The following verses concern Christ's mediation:

Hebrews 9:13-15, 23-24:

For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, [14] how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

[15] Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

.... Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [24] For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

May 5, 2011

John317,

If your analysis is correct concerning the "First Angel", then:

1. Who is Babylon?

2. Did Babylon fall in 1844 right after the First Angel's message?

When you read the Revelation chapter 14 passage the three Angels follow one another with no lapsed time period. They come one after another in rapid succession (simultaneously). Thus, my two questions above.

May 5, 2011

"This is a conclusion based on faulty exegesis, as I've shown in my previous posts.

Here is some of the biblical evidence for the date of 1844 as the beginning of the Investigative Judgment:"

You say my exegesis is faulty? Then you string a bunch of texts that talk about "Judgment" but none of them ever, ever, makes a clear unambiguous difference between an "investigative judgment" and the "executive judgment".

There is nothing in any of these texts to indicate that any judgment would happen in 1844!

I am afraid my friend that it is your exegesis and your logic that is at fault.

Again:

1. Who is Babylon?

2. When does Babylon fall?

May 5, 2011

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsit is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithand this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are Gods handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Ephesians 2:1-10.
...8. Verse 10 also states that God the Father prepared us in advance of what Jesus Christ did on the Cross and in the Resurrection to "do good works".

9. In other words God the Father knew that Jesus Christ would be successful so God the Father poured out on all of us humans His Grace and His Faith and the ability to "do good works".

READ IT CAREFULLY!

1. NO mediatory work!

2. NO 1844!

3. NO 2300 days!

4. NO sanctuary movement!

5. NO investigative judgment!

The fact that Eph. 2: 1-10 does not mention the mediatorial work of Christ or the 2300 day prophecy does not mean that the rest of the Bible does not teach them.

Here are evidences from the Bible that point to Christ as our intercessor:

Our Pattern, Helper, and Friend

ow alone should the Christian walk?

"He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." 1 John 2:6. (See Colossians 2:6.)

What mind should be in us?

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:5.

NOTE: The mind of Christ was characterized by humility (verses 6-8); dependence upon God (John 5:19, 30); a determination to do only the Father's will (John 5:30; 6:38); thoughtfulness of others (Acts 10:38); and a willingness to sacrifice and suffer, and even to die, for the good of others (2 Corinthians 8:9; Romans 5:6-8; 1 Peter 2:24).

While yet but a child, what example of obedience to parents did He present to us?

"And He went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them." Luke 2:51.

How are His childhood and youth described?

>"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." Verse 52.

What example did He give us in regard to baptism?

"Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad Him, saying, I have need to be baptized of Thee, and comest Thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then He suffered him." Matthew 3:13-15.

How important was prayer in His life?

"He went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God." Luke 6:12. "He took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray." Luke 9:28.

To what kind of work did Jesus dedicate His life?

"Who went about doing good." Acts 10:38.

What was it that caused Jesus to leave the riches of heaven and come down and live here on earth?

"For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich." 2 Corinthians 8:9.

When misunderstood, reviled, and mistreated, what did He do?

"Who, when He was reviled, reviled not again,. when He suffered, He threatened not; but committed Himself to Him that judgeth righteously." 1 Peter 2:23.

How did He pray for those who crucified Him?

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34. (See Acts 3:17.)

What did the Bible predict His life would be like?

"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:9.

How powerfully can Jesus bring us salvation?

"I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save." Isa. 63:1.

What was Christ's purpose in coming to this world?

"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:10.

Through what was Christ made a complete and perfect Saviour?

>"For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." Hebrews 2:10.

As a result of His suffering and temptation, what is Christ able to do?

"For in that He himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted." Verse 18.

How complete a Saviour is He?

"Wherefore he is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:25.

From what is He able to keep us?

"Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen." Jude 24, 25.

What does Jesus, our Pattern, Helper, and Friend, call those who accept Him?

"Henceforth I call you not servants;... I have called you friends." John 15:15.

What kind of friend is He?

"There is a Friend that sticketh closer than a brother." Proverbs 18:24.

What is the evidence of a genuine friend?

"A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity." Proverbs 17:17.

May 5, 2011

John317,

If your analysis is correct concerning the "First Angel", then:

1. Who is Babylon?

Babylon consists of false religions and false churches. One of the larger groups included here is the Roman Catholic Church, the "mother of harlots," but it also includes "the daughters," which are many of the protestant churches.

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. Did Babylon fall in 1844 right after the First Angel's message?

May 5, 2011

...Thank you Sonny for reminding us that in Jesus Christ we do have ASSURANCE OF SALVATION!

Unfortunately many worry about this when there is no need to worry.

Wherein lies our assurance of salvation?

Is there such a thing as false assurance? False faith?

Should everyone be assured of their salvation?

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

1 Cor. 10:12

Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Hebrews 12:15

See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no "root of bitterness" springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled;

May 5, 2011

Originally Posted By: John317

"This is a conclusion based on faulty exegesis, as I've shown in my previous posts.

Here is some of the biblical evidence for the date of 1844 as the beginning of the Investigative Judgment:"

You say my exegesis is faulty? Then you string a bunch of texts that talk about "Judgment" but none of them ever, ever, makes a clear unambiguous difference between an "investigative judgment" and the "executive judgment".

There is nothing in any of these texts to indicate that any judgment would happen in 1844!

I am afraid my friend that it is your exegesis and your logic that is at fault.

The Bible is clear that there is a judgment that takes place before the second coming of Chrsit and a judgment that takes places after the one thousand years.

The judgment after the one thousand years is the Great white throne Judgment.

The judgment scene in Daniel 7 takes place while the little-horn power is still active on the earth, thus proving that it is happening before the second coming of Christ. Chrst brings his rewards when He returns the second time, and therefore, there is a judgment prior to this time.

That there is an invetigative judgment prior to the second coming is proved by the following verses:

Matthew 22:1-14

And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, [2] "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, [3] and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. [4] Again he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.' [5] But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, [6] while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. [7] The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. [8] Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. [9] Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.' [10] And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

[11] "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. [12] And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. [13] Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' [14] For many are called, but few are chosen."

May 5, 2011

The Bible is clear that there is a judgment that takes place before the second coming of Christ and a judgment that takes places after the one thousand years.

The Bible is chock full of Judgments because God before the Second Coming is in a constant and continuous state of Judging. For you to cherry pick judgments that take place prior to the 2nd Coming and use such texts to support a particular singular event that happened in 1844 stretches at minimum credibility.

Such Biblical cherry picking is reminiscent of Morman and Jehovah Witness uses of the Bible. It is a huge stretch for SDA to label such texts as "investigative judgment". SDA do cherry pick because they feel (unnecessarily I might add) that have to PROVE that they are a PEOPLE OF DESTINY.

I am deeply disappointed in such efforts. However, I do believe that you and many other SDA are honestly trying to do the right and honest thing. Having said that, there are others who know full well that they are fudging on this so-called doctrine when they say the Bible and the Bible only.

SDA are a viable Church without:

1. 1844.

2. their unique Sanctuary Doctrine.

3. the investigative judgment.

4. the 2300 days.

The SDA investment in these doctrines is so deep and has so stubbornly been held that SDA feel they would lose all credibility if they agreed that they had been wrong all along.

Did we fall apart when we changed from an Arian to a Trinitarian Church? NO!

May 5, 2011

Babylon consists of false religions and false churches. One of the larger groups included here is the Roman Catholic Church, the "mother of harlots," but it also includes "the daughters," which are many of the protestant churches.

The fall of spiritiual Babylon took place when the churches rejected the first angels messages.

However, the message of the fall of Babylon will be repeated. The churches are not completely fallen away from the truth. The fall of Babylon is progressive as the churches reject more and more truth. In forming the mark of the beast, they will have fallen completely away from the truth of God.

OK, continuing our study of Revelation chapter 14 and the Three Angels and their messages.

1. Babylon according to you is false religions, false churches, the chief among these is the Roman Catholic Church.

2. These entities cited in #1 above have "fallen" because they rejected the First Angel.

3. When did these entities in #1 "reject the First Angel and his message? Was that in 1844? What event can we all independently use to verify this fall of Babylon in 1844?

4. The messages of the Three Angels (especially the Second Angel) never even hint that Babylon will fall more than ONCE.

5. Where in the Bible does it state that Babylon falls a second time or even falls more than once? Its not in the messages of the Angels.

6. You state that the entities of #1 have not completely fallen away. Does this mean the Second Angel was wrong about his 1844 message of the fall?

7. The Second Angel seems certain that the fall is complete and permanent. There is no way to infer from this text that the "fall" is a gradual process.

8. If the Roman Church is the "mother of harlots" does this mean the Roman Church spawned and/or is somehow responsible for Islam, Buddhism, the numerous other eastern religions, devil worship found in pagan cultures, Communism, Darwinism, other atheistic and agnostic belief systems, Socialism, etc.?

Please take each of my individual points and answer them separately, please.

May 5, 2011

SDA are a viable Church without:

1. 1844.

2. their unique Sanctuary Doctrine.

3. the investigative judgment.

4. the 2300 days.

The SDA investment in these doctrines is so deep and has so stubbornly been held that SDA feel they would lose all credibility if they agreed that they had been wrong all along.

miz3, I'm curious, what do you believe happened at the end of the 2300 days? You may have stated in one of these posts but I missed it. :)

May 5, 2011

Originally Posted By: John317

The Bible is clear that there is a judgment that takes place before the second coming of Christ and a judgment that takes places after the one thousand years.

The Bible is chock full of Judgments because God before the Second Coming is in a constant and continuous state of Judging.

You're right that there were judgments:

1) The Flood

2) Sodom and Gomorrah

3) Judgment On Egypt

4) Judgment on Ninavah

5) Judgmetns on Israel and Judah

6) Judgments against Babylon

7) Judgment on literal Israel in 70 AD

Notice that God always sent warning messages before all these judgments.

God also sends a warning message before the Investigative Judgment. That last warning message to the world is called the Three Angels Messsages. People are hearing it now. You are hearing it here and no doubt elsewhere.

So the pre-Advent Judgment is different from all these previous judgments. It judges everyone who ever claimed to put their faith in God. It is the last judgment prior to the second coming of Christ. After that, no one can make any changes. Now-- NOT later--- is the time to make changes and prepare for the judgment.

The pre-Adventit Judgment is announced by a world wide-proclamation and includes everyone who has ever made a profession of faith in God or Christ. It examines closely the life of every indiviual from Adam to the last person who accepts Christ before the second coming.

It involves the whole universe, including the angels, and shows the differences between the sheep and the goats. After this investigative judgment, Jesus comes with His reward, to give to every men according to his work.

May 5, 2011

John317,

You would think that such a "unique judgment" would be heralded with a lot of clarity but all we get is huge stretches of inferences that are not even close within the texts themselves that this "vital judgment" even exists.

To me God speaks with great clarity. So in this case you would think that God would not hide such an important "event" in such cloudiness.

The judgments of the Flood was extremely clear. As were the judgments on Egypt, the judgments on Israel (both northern and southern kingdoms), etc.

Your assertions do not follow the patterns of even these judgments. You would think the greater the importance the louder and clearer the message. Yet in this case you assert that God wants us to go around the barn to hunt and peck in the tall grass for the nuggets. It just does not add up.

Please John317, answer my eight queries posted a few minutes ago. Thanks.

May 5, 2011

SDA are a viable Church without:

1. 1844.

2. their unique Sanctuary Doctrine.

3. the investigative judgment.

4. the 2300 days.

If 1844 was false, then the SDA church is false and we have no real reason for being.

If the Investigative Judgment and the blotting out of sins is false, then there's no importance in keeping the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath.

And if that is true, then Ellen White was a false prophet, and the SDA church might as well break up and join the other protestant churches. If we as a church have been teaching all those false doctrines these many years,we should recognize it now and all go our separate ways. There is no sense in continuing as a distinct and sepearte denomination.

In that case, why not join the Baptist church, the Methodist church, or even return to the Catholic Church? I would be a Roman Catholic now if I did not believe the prophecies concerning the little horn power, the change of the Sabbath, the mark the beast, and the Investigative Judgment.

May 5, 2011

teresaq(sda),

I would love to answer your question. However, at this moment I am reluctant to do so because I don't think we have solved the current track on Babylon, the Three Angels, and my eight questions.

I would like to stay on the current track until I get more answers.

Please don't let me forget to respond to you directly when it is appropriate. You did ask a very pertinent question and I do really want to respond.

I hope this is OK with you?

May 5, 2011

Did we fall apart when we changed from an Arian to a Trinitarian Church? NO!

That's because we followed the Bible in changing from Arian to the belief we hold today. That is far different from turning our backs on truth and passing from the light to the darkness. What you are suggesting is that Seventh-day Adventists turn against everything we have stood for-- all of the Bible doctrines that make us the church which we have been since 1863, and the very teachings that God designed us to give to the world to help prepare a people for the second coming of Christ.

That is precisely what Satan wants the church and individual SDAs to do. Satan hates the Three Angels Messages and doesn't want to see them practiced or taught.

What do you mean by "we"? Are you a former SDA?

May 5, 2011

... there are others who know full well that they are fudging on this so-called doctrine when they say the Bible and the Bible only.

When was the last time you studied a book on the IJ by an SDA? Have you read any books written by SDAs showing the Bible evidence for the Investigative Judgment?

I gave you a number of titles of books. Have you studied any of them?

May 5, 2011