Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[Sonny]

There is no justification apart from faith in Christ.

False. Christ justified all men before God's law in His doing & dying. Accepting what God has already done is justification by faith.

[Igakusei]

Many millions of people in other denominations do understand when they hear the message taught or preached, and that is why they leave spiritual Babylon and join the Remnant church in order to help spread the Three Angels Messages.

You misunderstand about the use of the adjective "wicked." It has nothing to with which denomination an individual is in. One can be considered by God among the "wicked" no matter which denomination one's membership is in. Whether one is "wicked" or not has nothing to do with location or geography.

Here's what the Bible teaches:

Daniel 12:8-10

I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?" [9] He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. [10] Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

Do you understand this? Do you have an interest in what it says?

God's people will be purified and made white and refined, whereas others will do wickedly and not understand. When does this occcur? It says it will take place at the time of the end.

The wicked are not purified and made white and refined because they love their sins and want to hold on to them. They see no reason to give up their sins. In fact, the wicked generally don't think they need to be purifed or cleansed.

Notice why Jesus said people don't undertsndand what he says or accept it:

John 7:17

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

John 8:31-32

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, [32] and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

John 8:43-47

Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. [44] You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. [45] But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. [46] Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? [47] Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

And:

1 Cor. 2:14

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

So when devout people in different denominations pray earnestly for the holy spirit's guidance while studying scripture as honestly as they can but still come to opposing conclusions on critical doctrines...

Are all but one of those parties simply being dishonest in their study and holding on to incorrect doctrines in spite of where the Holy Spirit is guiding them? That seems to be the implication from what I can see given the verses you decided to use. Unless Daniel 12 doesn't apply because it's not the end time yet, but I think EGW would disagree on that point.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[miz3]

There is no justification apart from faith in Christ

[miz3]

Babylon consists of false religions and false churches. One of the larger groups included here is the Roman Catholic Church, the "mother of harlots," but it also includes "the daughters," which are many of the protestant churches.

The fall of spiritiual Babylon took place when the churches rejected the first angels messages.

However, the message of the fall of Babylon will be repeated. The churches are not completely fallen away from the truth. The fall of Babylon is progressive as the churches reject more and more truth. In forming the mark of the beast, they will have fallen completely away from the truth of God.

OK, continuing our study of Revelation chapter 14 and the Three Angels and their messages.

1. Babylon according to you is false religions, false churches, the chief among these is the Roman Catholic Church.

2. These entities cited in #1 above have "fallen" because they rejected the First Angel.

3. When did these entities in #1 "reject the First Angel and his message? Was that in 1844? What event can we all independently use to verify this fall of Babylon in 1844?

4. The messages of the Three Angels (especially the Second Angel) never even hint that Babylon will fall more than ONCE.

5. Where in the Bible does it state that Babylon falls a second time or even falls more than once? Its not in the messages of the Angels.

6. You state that the entities of #1 have not completely fallen away. Does this mean the Second Angel was wrong about his 1844 message of the fall?

7. The Second Angel seems certain that the fall is complete and permanent. There is no way to infer from this text that the "fall" is a gradual process.

8. If the Roman Church is the "mother of harlots" does this mean the Roman Church spawned and/or is somehow responsible for Islam, Buddhism, the numerous other eastern religions, devil worship found in pagan cultures, Communism, Darwinism, other atheistic and agnostic belief systems, Socialism, etc.?

Please take each of my individual points and answer them separately, please.

[Sonny]

If you don't trust (faith) what God did for you (justified you first before anything you did) then you nullify what God did.

Right, God didn't justify you when you accepted Him. He justified you in His Son 2000 years ago. Paul is clear on this:

Rom 5:10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; ...18 So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life. ASV

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

There is no justification apart from faith in Christ

.

Originally Posted By: Sonny

False. Christ justified all men before God's law in His doing & dying. Accepting what God has already done is justification by faith.

Sonny you are perfect in what you said above! It is the absolute Truth!

If you don't trust (faith) what God did for you (justified you first before anything you did) then you nullify what God did.

Romans 5:1

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:30

since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

NOTE: All, Jews and gentiles, are justifed by faith.

Galatians 5:6

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: miz3

If you don't trust (faith) what God did for you (justified you first before anything you did) then you nullify what God did.

Right, God didn't justify you when you accepted Him. He justified you in His Son 2000 years ago. Paul is clear on this:

This is false. People are only justifed, set in right relationship with God and accounted as righteous, through faith in Christ. We were not justified before we were born or before we placed our faith in Christ.

The Bible does not teach that. Jesus died for us before we were born, but we aren't justfied apart from a choice of accepting Christ. Salvation is a choice, not something imposed on people. To be saved, people must want to be saved. No one is saved by accident or without making a choice.

Romans 5:1

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[miz3]

Daniel 12:8-10

I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?" [9] He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. [10] Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

The text you cite here, does say "time of the end".

1. People in all the generations of human experience have faced this dichotomy. The purifying, the rejection of truth, etc. Such a statement would not be novel except for the words "time of the end".

2. It also depends on what God meant by the phrase, "time of the end". Did God mean the end of the Messianic Era, the end of the Roman Empire, the end of the Jewish Nation as God's people, etc. How do we know from this text God means specifically you and I, now in the 21st Century, not to mention those in 1844.

Please answer my eight points, then answer this.

[Sonny]

This is false. People are only justifed, set in right relationship with God and accounted as righteous, through faith in Chrsit. We were not justified before we were born or before we placed our faith in Christ.

The whole world was justified in the doing and dying of Christ. Paul is clear. Anything outside this is a lie.

[Sonny]

Gospel issues in Adventism

Here's a sample:

When we consider the objective facts of salvation we are looking at the gospel from God’s point of view. And as far as God is concerned He has already redeemed or saved the entire human race in Christ. But when we consider the subjective truth of salvation, we are looking at it from man’s point of view. And from our point of view, only believers will be saved.

It is for this reason the Bible clearly teaches that no one will be lost for being born a child of Adam. The only reason anyone will be lost is because they have deliberately and ultimately rejected the objective facts of salvation in Christ [Mk. 16:15, 16; Jn. 3:18,36; Heb. 2:1-3; 10:26-29].

Further, because God has actually redeemed the entire human race in Christ, He can take to heaven all those who have never heard the gospel, through no fault of their own, but who were faithful to the light they had, whatever that light may have been. These will here about Jesus for the first time in heaven and at that time will give Him the glory for saving them.

[miz3]

Here's a sample:

When we consider the objective facts of salvation we are looking at the gospel from God’s point of view. And as far as God is concerned He has already redeemed or saved the entire human race in Christ. But when we consider the subjective truth of salvation, we are looking at it from man’s point of view. And from our point of view, only believers will be saved.

It is for this reason the Bible clearly teaches that no one will be lost for being born a child of Adam. The only reason anyone will be lost is because they have deliberately and ultimately rejected the objective facts of salvation in Christ [Mk. 16:15, 16; Jn. 3:18,36; Heb. 2:1-3; 10:26-29].

Further, because God has actually redeemed the entire human race in Christ, He can take to heaven all those who have never heard the gospel, through no fault of their own, but who were faithful to the light they had, whatever that light may have been. These will here about Jesus for the first time in heaven and at that time will give Him the glory for saving them.

Absolutely, stated perfectly!

Sonny you nailed it.

This is so Biblical! God acts from His point of view and God does not act from our point of view. The issue (like all issues) is totally about God. The fact that you and I benefit from God's actions tells you how Great God is!

[miz3]

Babylon consists of false religions and false churches. One of the larger groups included here is the Roman Catholic Church, the "mother of harlots," but it also includes "the daughters," which are many of the protestant churches.

The fall of spiritiual Babylon took place when the churches rejected the first angels messages.

However, the message of the fall of Babylon will be repeated. The churches are not completely fallen away from the truth. The fall of Babylon is progressive as the churches reject more and more truth. In forming the mark of the beast, they will have fallen completely away from the truth of God.

OK, continuing our study of Revelation chapter 14 and the Three Angels and their messages.

1. Babylon according to you is false religions, false churches, the chief among these is the Roman Catholic Church.

2. These entities cited in #1 above have "fallen" because they rejected the First Angel.

3. When did these entities in #1 "reject the First Angel and his message? Was that in 1844? What event can we all independently use to verify this fall of Babylon in 1844?

4. The messages of the Three Angels (especially the Second Angel) never even hint that Babylon will fall more than ONCE.

5. Where in the Bible does it state that Babylon falls a second time or even falls more than once? Its not in the messages of the Angels.

6. You state that the entities of #1 have not completely fallen away. Does this mean the Second Angel was wrong about his 1844 message of the fall?

7. The Second Angel seems certain that the fall is complete and permanent. There is no way to infer from this text that the "fall" is a gradual process.

8. If the Roman Church is the "mother of harlots" does this mean the Roman Church spawned and/or is somehow responsible for Islam, Buddhism, the numerous other eastern religions, devil worship found in pagan cultures, Communism, Darwinism, other atheistic and agnostic belief systems, Socialism, etc.?

Please take each of my individual points and answer them separately, please.

[ClubV12]

"...but who were faithful to the light they had, whatever that light may have been."

Thats one of the first things that was preached at the evangelistic meetings I first attended. The evangelist covered that point many times as the meetings continued.

Every man has written on his heart a fundamental appreciation for the sacredness of life, as opposed to animals. That applies to tribesman living deep within the jungles of some remote location as well. Or a group of people who have little or no knowledge of "religion". This fundamental truth, in my opinion, rules out "salvation" for sin's like human sacrafice, for whatever reason, particularly in regards to child victims. "Mankind" just KNOWS it aint right, and doesn't need a bible or a preacher to spell it out. Violation of those basic principles is choosing "sin". When that tribe or nation or peoples "cup of iniquity" is full they will pay the same price as a "christian" who has also has chosen "sin", willfully and with that inherent knowledge all men possess.

We are told of some groups of people who will not be resurrected, ever. They will never face any judgement of any kind. They will have lived their life, died, and thats it. The example given is in referrence to slaves who's master has had such control over their life there were little better off than the beasts of the field. No free choice, no opportunity to ever choose. Without that "test" of choice heaven's future happiness would be at risk from this unknown (unknown to the inhabitants of heaven at least).

The Jews in the land of Egypt were heading in that direction. Having been there so long as slaves, forced to work on the Sabbath, oppressed to the point of almost loosing "choice" in their lives. The knowledge of God almost extinguished. Their rescue coming not a moment to soon.

[miz3]

We are told of some groups of people who will not be resurrected, ever. They will never face any judgement of any kind. They will have lived their life, died, and thats it. The example given is in referrence to slaves who's master has had such control over their life there were little better off than the beasts of the field. No free choice, no opportunity to ever choose. Without that "test" of choice heaven's future happiness would be at risk from this unknown (unknown to the inhabitants of heaven at least).

These same ones who you assert will never ever see a resurrection were made by God.

Thus, are you asserting that God made these people to be the way they are only to simply throw them away in the garbage can. That is a cruel God that would do that.

Again, I ask are you accusing God of making these "freaks" and/or placing these "poor souls" in these degrading circumstances and then God says, "Sorry, its my fault but you get nothing"?

Where in the Bible is this?

If it is not in the Bible, then where did you ever get such an unholy idea?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If there are people who won't be resurrected at all because they couldn't make a choice, that rules out babies as well. I don't think that's how it's going to be.

[Nan]

We can be grateful that each case will be judged by God,

not a human being.

[John317]

Daniel 12:8-10

I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the outcome of these things?" [9] He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. [10] Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

Originally Posted By: miz3

The text you cite here, does say "time of the end".

1. People in all the generations of human experience have faced this dichotomy. The purifying, the rejection of truth, etc. Such a statement would not be novel except for the words "time of the end".

It is self-evident that the text is referring to a special time of purification among God's people living at the time of the end. This is precisely what the Investigative Judgment, or the atitypical Day of Atonement, is all about.

This "purifying" is a cleansing from sin; that is, separating sin from us. That is the reason the Investigative Judgment is so important among SDAs. This purifying only occurs because of the Holy Spirit and because people are following Jesus by faith in His High Priestly ministry in the Most Holy Place. If people don't do this, they will go about life as if nothing has changed since 2000 years ago. They won't understand "present truth."

Satan is determined to get SDAs to forget, neglect, or reject this aspect of the Three Angels Messages, and he will succeed in getting many to do this, although he can't defeat God's purposes.

Study GC 425, 431.

Originally Posted By: miz3

2. It also depends on what God meant by the phrase, "time of the end". Did God mean the end of the Messianic Era, the end of the Roman Empire, the end of the Jewish Nation as God's people, etc. How do we know from this text God means specifically you and I, now in the 21st Century, not to mention those in 1844.

Yes, study the meaning of "the time of the end."

There is a difference between "time of the end" and "the end of time."

The Bible teaches that if God wants his people to understand what is meant by "the time of the end," they will know it. "The time of the end" is a relatively short period of time before the second coming of Chrsit, and we are living during that time. We live close to the time of Christ's return.

Check out these paragraphs:

Quote:

A wonderful connection is here seen between the universe of heaven and this world. The things revealed to Daniel were afterward complemented by the revelation made to John on the isle of Patmos. These two books should be carefully perused. Twice Daniel inquired, How long shall it be to the end of time? “And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. . . . But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.” {CTr 334.4}

It was the Lion of the tribe of Judah who unsealed the book and gave to John the revelation of what should be in these last days. Daniel stood in his lot to bear his testimony, which was sealed until the time of the end, when the first angel’s message should be proclaimed to our world. These matters are of infinite importance in these last days. . . . The book of Daniel is unsealed in the revelation to John, and it carries us forward to the last scenes of this earth’s history.

Quote:

The message itself [Rev. 14: 6] sheds light as to the time when this movement is to take place. It is declared to be a part of the “everlasting gospel;” and it announces the opening of the Judgment. The message of salvation has been preached in all ages; but this message is a part of the gospel which could be proclaimed only in the last days, for only then

356

would it be true that the hour of Judgment had come. The prophecies present a succession of events leading down to the opening of the Judgment. This is especially true of the book of Daniel. But that part of his prophecy which related to the last days, Daniel was bidden to close up and seal “to the time of the end.” Not till we reach this time could a message concerning the Judgment be proclaimed, based on a fulfillment of these prophecies. But at the time of the end, says the prophet, “many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” [Daniel 12:4.] {GC88 355.3}

The apostle Paul warned the church not to look for the coming of Christ in his day. “That day shall not come,” he says, “except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.” [2 Thessalonians 2:3.] Not till after the great apostasy, and the long period of the reign of the “man of sin,” can we look for the advent of our Lord. The “man of sin,” which is also styled the “mystery of iniquity,” the “son of perdition,” and “that wicked,” represents the papacy, which, as foretold in prophecy, was to maintain its supremacy for 1260 years. This period ended in 1798. The coming of Christ could not take place before that time. Paul covers with his caution the whole of the Christian dispensation down to the year 1798. It is this side of that time that the message of Christ's second coming is to be proclaimed. {GC88 356.1}

No such message has ever been given in past ages. Paul, as we have seen, did not preach it; he pointed his brethren into the then far-distant future for the coming of the Lord. The reformers did not proclaim it. Martin Luther placed the Judgment about three hundred years in the future from his day. But since 1798 the book of Daniel has been unsealed, knowledge of the prophecies has increased, and many have proclaimed the solemn message of the Judgment near. {GC88 356.2}

Like the great Reformation of the sixteenth century, the Advent movement appeared in the different countries of

357

Christendom at the same time. In both Europe and America, men of faith and prayer were led to the study of the prophecies, and, tracing down the inspired record, they saw convincing evidence that the end of all things was at hand. In different lands there were isolated bodies of Christians, who, solely by the study of the Scriptures, arrived at the belief that the Saviour's advent was near. {GC88 356.3}

[John317]

That is for sure, Nan.

We can be glad that Jesus is the Judge in the Judgment. We can absolutely trust that He will do what is loving, just, and merciful.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

There is no justification apart from faith in Christ.

False. Christ justified all men before God's law in His doing & dying. Accepting what God has already done is justification by faith.

That is not what the Bible teaches.

What is "justification"? It is declaring that a person or persons are forgiven and righteous, as if they had never sinned. Are you saying this is what God did to all the world when Christ died? That would clearly be false. Were all the world covered with the righteousness of Christ? Of course not. What happened was that God made available to all people the righteousness of Christ through faith in Him. But that righteousness by must accepted personally by faith. And if we truly accept His righteousness by faith, it will be manifested in the keeping of God's commandments.

Nowhere does Paul or Peter or any other apostle teach that "you are already justified. All you need to do is accept the fact that God justified you before you were born." No such message is found anywhere in the Bible or in the Spirit of prophecy.

Acts 16:31

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved [NOT "you have been"], you and your household."

Romans 3:26

It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:28

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Romans 5:1

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:24

So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:6-7

just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?

[7] Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

Paul tells us that God "chooses us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

2 Thes. 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

[miz3]

Babylon consists of false religions and false churches. One of the larger groups included here is the Roman Catholic Church, the "mother of harlots," but it also includes "the daughters," which are many of the protestant churches.

The fall of spiritiual Babylon took place when the churches rejected the first angels messages.

However, the message of the fall of Babylon will be repeated. The churches are not completely fallen away from the truth. The fall of Babylon is progressive as the churches reject more and more truth. In forming the mark of the beast, they will have fallen completely away from the truth of God.

OK, continuing our study of Revelation chapter 14 and the Three Angels and their messages.

1. Babylon according to you is false religions, false churches, the chief among these is the Roman Catholic Church.

2. These entities cited in #1 above have "fallen" because they rejected the First Angel.

3. When did these entities in #1 "reject the First Angel and his message? Was that in 1844? What event can we all independently use to verify this fall of Babylon in 1844?

4. The messages of the Three Angels (especially the Second Angel) never even hint that Babylon will fall more than ONCE.

5. Where in the Bible does it state that Babylon falls a second time or even falls more than once? Its not in the messages of the Angels.

6. You state that the entities of #1 have not completely fallen away. Does this mean the Second Angel was wrong about his 1844 message of the fall?

7. The Second Angel seems certain that the fall is complete and permanent. There is no way to infer from this text that the "fall" is a gradual process.

8. If the Roman Church is the "mother of harlots" does this mean the Roman Church spawned and/or is somehow responsible for Islam, Buddhism, the numerous other eastern religions, devil worship found in pagan cultures, Communism, Darwinism, other atheistic and agnostic belief systems, Socialism, etc.?

Please take each of my individual points and answer them separately, please.

[John317]

By the way, are you in favor of SDAs recognizing the Nicene Creed as a doctrinal authority? We might discuss that a little bit since it is the topic of this discussion. I have not yet seen that you have even taken a position on this. Nor Robert (i.e., Sonny).

[John317]

If there are people who won't be resurrected at all because they couldn't make a choice, that rules out babies as well. I don't think that's how it's going to be.

The Bible says nothing about babies. It's something we have to simply trust God with, which I'm willing to do, since I know He loves people more than anyone does.

The reason the Bible doesn't say anything about babies' salvation is that we can't do anything about it anyway. Only God can do it.

The Bible doesn't say that some people won't be resurrected, but neither does it specifically deny it. I believe what Ellen White teaches on this point. It makes perfectly good sense, considering what the Bible teaches us about the character of God. God will not force people's change of character and neither will He compel people to be saved. Nor will God hold people responsible and punish them for things they had no knowledge of.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Babylon consists of false religions and false churches. One of the larger groups included here is the Roman Catholic Church, the "mother of harlots," but it also includes "the daughters," which are many of the protestant churches.

The fall of spiritiual Babylon took place when the churches rejected the first angels messages.

However, the message of the fall of Babylon will be repeated. The churches are not completely fallen away from the truth. The fall of Babylon is progressive as the churches reject more and more truth. In forming the mark of the beast, they will have fallen completely away from the truth of God.

OK, continuing our study of Revelation chapter 14 and the Three Angels and their messages.

1. Babylon according to you is false religions, false churches, the chief among these is the Roman Catholic Church.

Yes, certainly. Do you agree or deny it?

Originally Posted By: Miz3

2. These entities cited in #1 above have "fallen" because they rejected the First Angel.

Those churches or groups have fallen away from the truth, and as churches, they will not change doctrinal positions in regard to Bible truth. In other words, a person in those churches will not hear the full truth of the Bible by staying inside those churches. For instance, a person won't hear the Three Angels messages from priests, bishops, or popes. They won't hear the Sabbath taught or the truth about the state of man in death, nor will he hear the truth about Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. However, since the church is not completely fallen away from truth, people in the Catholic Church will hear some of the gospel. Hence people can still learn some of the truth while in those Babylonian, i.e, fallen, churches. Most of them teach the Trinity and the death of Christ for our sins, even though much of it is mixed up with false teachings, "the wine of Babylon."

PS. Most of my wife's family are nominal Catholics, and my wife was one until about 6 years after we married. I used to take her to Mass and sit with her through it. One of her sisters is a very faithful Catholic and a wonderful person and a devoted Christian. I often watch Catholic TV and study Cathoiic publications.

[John317]

Hey Dr. Rich,

You posted:

Quote:

Hmmm? Lets see now, you say that the Catholic Church is the mother of all of the harlots--right? Since the Catholic Church is the mother of ALL of the so called other Christian Churchs, are you saying that all of them are playing the part of a harlot? Ok, I can buy that, since it was Paul who invented Christianity anyway.

She is the mother, certainly, of those churches which came directly out of the Catholic Church. Most of the churches today are full of false doctrines, such as "original sin," "Sunday," the immortality of the soul and of the wicked, the Mass, the human priesthood, "once saved always saved," the belief that faith frees us from obedience to God's moral law, i.e., the Ten Commandments.

It isn't that Paul invented Christianity. It is that many people and churches have perverted Paul's teachings. For instance, many teach that Paul taught the immortality of the soul and that believers need not obey God's law. Paul, in fact, taught none of these things, but actually taught against them. But we ought not to be astonished at this, because the very same perversions are commonly taught about Christ and the Gospels.

[John317]

Babylon consists of false religions and false churches. One of the larger groups included here is the Roman Catholic Church, the "mother of harlots," but it also includes "the daughters," which are many of the protestant churches.

The fall of spiritiual Babylon took place when the churches rejected the first angels messages.

However, the message of the fall of Babylon will be repeated. The churches are not completely fallen away from the truth. The fall of Babylon is progressive as the churches reject more and more truth. In forming the mark of the beast, they will have fallen completely away from the truth of God.

Originally Posted By: miz3

3. When did these entities in #1 "reject the First Angel and his message? Was that in 1844? What event can we all independently use to verify this fall of Babylon in 1844?

The fall of the churches away from truth was (is) a process. No church falls into error overnight, or all at once. It is one step at a time, and usually the church is not even aware of its fall. They don't intend to fall. History shows clearly that the Catholic church, as well as some of the protestant churches, had been falling into false doctrines for a very long time, starting in the third and fourth centuries AD.

Read GC 375-390. See esp. 379- 384.

Originally Posted By: miz3

4. The messages of the Three Angels (especially the Second Angel) never even hint that Babylon will fall more than ONCE.

You need to read the whole of Revelation, and in fact, the whole of the NT. Compare Rev. 14: 8 and Rev. 18: 2-4.

The Christian church began to fall as far back as the time of John, basically as soon as the apostles passed off the scene of action. They warned the church of what to expect, a great falling away, or apostacy. See 2 Thess. 2: 1-5; 1 Tim. 4: 1-5. History records that this is exactly what occurred.