Why SDAs Reject the Historic Creeds

[John317]

As you doubtless realize, this is a statement made by Ellen G. White. While it is not in the bible, yet it also does not contradict the Bible. The Bible simply does not go into details on that matter. But you should be OK with it, I think, since you support Ellen White's other statement (which is also not found in the Bible) that there will be children in heaven without their parents. I believe both statements because I have learned that Ellen White can be trusted. For the same reason I trust the Bible even when I have no proof that it is correct.

Originally Posted By: miz3

If Ellen White made such statements and the principle you are stating above holds, then why would anyone ever go to the Bible when they can pull down Desire of Ages and read everything found in the Gospels and more besides.

Why bother to read Revelation when we can pull down Great Controversy and read everything found in Revelation and more besides.

....Why would I go to the Bible, except on rare occasions, in order to know something?

The simple answer is that the Bible is the Word of God, the canon, and Ellen White's writing's are not the Word of God.

And it simply is not true that we can read everything found in Revelation or the Gospels by reading Ellen White.

Besides, Ellen White herself said directly and clearly that we should not read her comments on the Bible until we have studied the Bible for ourselves. So if we really believe what she says, we will do this. Contrary to what you say, Ellen White was not given in order to take the place of the Bible. If people use her that way, they are hurting themselves. It is a misuse and abuse of her.

That would be like going to hear a good preacher and casting aside the Bible. Some people do that, to their own hurt.

She was never intended to be used in that way. Her entire purpose is to lead us to study and practice what God reveals to us in the Bible. I personally study the Bible about four hours for every hour that I study Mrs. White's writings.

Originally Posted By: miz3

After all Ellen White covers everyone of our Doctrines in her writings. She has basically (not fully) almost replaced the Bible.

If you don't want to read Ellen White's writings, that's up to you. No one is saying you have to read her or accept her if you don't want to. If you want to, stay with only the Bible. You don't need to read or study what anyone else says, and that includes Ellen White. I believe it is your loss, but if that is your decision, it's your decision.

[John317]

We're in agreement here, miz3. That is really what I've been saying.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John

that there will be children in heaven without their parents.

The Bible teaches this.....Rom 5:18 and other verses

Romans 5:18

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Where do you find in this text the viewpoint that there will be some children in heaven without their parents?

Are you saying that Romans 5: 18 teaches that all babies or young children will be saved?

Wouldn't that mean that we should hope our children will die early, so they will be sure to be in heaven? Are you sure this is what Romans 8: 18 is saying?

[miz3]

We're in agreement here, miz3. That is really what I've been saying.

I guess I am not too sharp about your statement.

Just what are you and I in agreement about?

[Gerr]

.

My point is that SDA get there Doctrines of the Investigative Judgment, the Sanctuary, the 2300 Days, the "little horn", Babylon, the Nature of Christ (mainly His humanity), and a large part of their other beliefs:

FROM ELLEN G. WHITE!

Is that a bad?

If you are asking me, I would say that it is not necessarily bad.

It is terrible because it is not true!!! If you don't want any false things said about you, then extend the same courtesy to others. I have already shown you a parade of expositors that reached similar conclusions LONG before EGW came on the scene. Bearing false witness is a serious matter.

[John317]

Evreryone,

I need to clear things up a bit.

You and others keep defending Ellen White.

Maybe I need to do a better job of explaining. I am not after Ellen White. You are free to believe in her inspiration to the full extent of your desire and belief.

OK.

Quote:

My point is that SDA get there Doctrines of the Investigative Judgment, the Sanctuary, the 2300 Days, the "little horn", Babylon, the Nature of Christ (mainly His humanity), and a large part of their other beliefs:

FROM ELLEN G. WHITE!

This can be fairly easily disproved, since each one of those doctrines preceeded Ellen White. Study the Sabbath Bible Conferences of 1849-1850. Also study Crosier's article on the sanctuary in the Day-Star Extra. You will see that Ellen Whtie is not even mentioned in his article, and she wrote very little on the investigative judgment until the 1880s. Perhaps what you mean is that Ellen White gave her support to those doctrines. That is true, but it is different from claiming that Seventh-day Adventists got their doctrines from her.

I've already given you the titles of books which show the Bible evidence for the Investitative Judgment. If you check them out, I think you'll see that it is not founded on Ellen White's statements.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

We're in agreement here, miz3. That is really what I've been saying.

I guess I am not too sharp about your statement.

Just what are you and I in agreement about?

This:

Originally Posted By: miz3

ClubV12,

Enjoy spending as much time as you want in Ellen White. I have no quarrel with that at all.

She does indeed have much good in her communications and I would much rather you be engrossed in her communications than in other some other human works.

My opinion is, that next to the Bible, Ellen White is the best there is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (repeated for emphasis, not shouting loud).

[miz3]

Gerry,

SDA were indeed influenced by the expositors that you cited. In fact they were in full agreement with them on specific issues.

However, SDA cannot use these "expositors" as the basis for their Doctrines. On the other hand Ellen White's "inspiration" makes her legitimate to judge whether our Doctrines are true or false.

Do you think Ellen White would sit by quietly if she knew for certain that SDA espoused a "false" Doctrine. What kind of Prophet would that be? It would be a useless and false Prophet. What good is a Prophet if the people can not count on the Prophet speaking the Truth to them about and from God?

If Ellen White is a True Prophet, as you say she is, then I would be extremely disappointed if she did not have almost total say in what we as a people believe.

Now if God does not inform her, then we cannot hold her accountable for what God doesn't tell her. However, we can hold her accountable if God told the Truth and she kept her mouth shut.

Thus, if Ellen White is the True Prophet SDA say she is, then I would expect her to tell us what God has to say even if it means God through her is telling us that some Bible texts now have additional meanings that were not apparent in their original state.

[Woody]

Quote:

If Ellen White is a True Prophet, as you say she is, then I would be extremely disappointed if she did not have almost total say in what we as a people believe.

God tells me what I should believe not Ellen.

EGW has no say in what I believe as an SDA.

It's between me and God. NOT me and EGW.

[miz3]

Fair enough Woody.

However, I don't think most SDA are the way you are. I can't prove that but my experience tells me "orthodox" SDA are indeed far too dependent on Ellen White for just about everything including what exactly they believe.

[Woody]

Fair enough Woody.

However, I don't think most SDA are the way you are. I can't prove that but my experience tells me "orthodox" SDA are indeed far too dependent on Ellen White for just about everything including what exactly they believe.

Fair enough returned.

You are probably right.

Most are not like me unfortunately. LOL I am certainly not "orthodox".

And many do consult with the dear lady far to much.

But praise God there are people like you and me. :)

[Gerr]

Gerry,

SDA were indeed influenced by the expositors that you cited. In fact they were in full agreement with them on specific issues.

However, SDA cannot use these "expositors" as the basis for their Doctrines. On the other hand Ellen White's "inspiration" makes her legitimate to judge whether our Doctrines are true or false.

Let me repeat again what I said before. Those expositors were cited NOT for authority but to show you that by studying the Bible ALONE, many others have come to the same conclusion without the benefit of EGW!!! The Bible and the Bible ALONE is the ULTIMATE authority. EGW writings are subject to it and the SDA church have NEVER claimed that her writings are equal to it!!! If you want to believe that SDA doctrines were EGW derived, that's your right. But there is nothing that I hold for doctrine that I cannot support from Scripture alone. You will never find me quoting EGW when discussing doctrine with anyone questioning my faith.

[John317]

I can't prove that but my experience tells me "orthodox" SDA are indeed far too dependent on Ellen White for just about everything including what exactly they believe.

I think you may not be considering the fact that when SDAs talk and study among themselves, they use both the Bible and Ellen White's writings, but when they talk or study with non-SDA they use only the Bible. It's true that some SDAs may use Ellen White when talking with non-SDA, but that is not typical and it is certainly not the right thing to do. It would be like using Luther as an authority when studying with a Catholic. Or like a Mormon using Joseph Smithas an authority when talking to an SDA.

SDAs most certainly need to understand what both the Bible and Ellen White teach, so her writings are something we do need to study and talk about among ourselves. Given the fact that we believe she is a genuine prophet of God, it stands to reason that we will be interested in studying what she says.

But I don't bring up Mrs. White's writings unless other people (non-SDA) do first. For instance, I wouldn't talk to B. Humble or Gustave about Ellen White if he didn't want to talk about her. Nor would I mention her writings to you, except that you obviously want to talk about her.

[John317]

If Ellen White is a True Prophet, as you say she is, then I would be extremely disappointed if she did not have almost total say in what we as a people believe.

Now if God does not inform her, then we cannot hold her accountable for what God doesn't tell her. However, we can hold her accountable if God told the Truth and she kept her mouth shut.

Thus, if Ellen White is the True Prophet SDA say she is, then I would expect her to tell us what God has to say even if it means God through her is telling us that some Bible texts now have additional meanings that were not apparent in their original state.

This is your private opinion, and you are welcome to it, but I believe it is wrong, and for the following reasons:

Even God Himself does not reveal all truth at once. Revelation of truth is always progressive. Moses did not reveal all the truth because God didn't reveal all teh truth to Moses. The same can be said about each one of the Bible prophets. The same for the apostles Peter, Paul and John.

Another thing is that Ellen Whtie herself was growing spritiually and becoming more knowledgeable about some doctrines. Prophets don't know everything about everything. They also don't tell all the truth at one time. It's like a person studying the Bible with someone-- they don't study or tell everything at once. God reveals as much as people are ready for. You can't give meat to a baby-- they have to have milk first. They could choke to death on the meat. Ever heard of someone choking to death on too much spiritual meat? It happens. God doesn't overwhelm people with truth-- if He did, many people would despair, get discouraged and give up. It would be a little like overwhelming a person with light after an eye operation.

[miz3]

John317,

I agree with you in principle. You are also correct that I am not put off by Ellen White and a discussion of her and her communications.

We may differ about things but I would never ever remove her as if she did not exist.

I just hate SDA penchant for over using her and too often the Bible gets left in the dust.

I believe what I would term Ellen White abuse is found through and through the SDA Community from top to bottom.

We Adventists used to be known as the "People of the Book". Meaning the Bible! I am afraid we lost that virgin status a long time ago, even when Ellen White was alive. I also believe that Ellen White herself would be amazed to find out things about her history then and now that she was not ever aware of.

I believe Ellen White tried to be a careful Steward of God's gift to her but it is not fair to place on her the responsibility for all possible and any known abuses then and now. I think she honestly was in the dark about many abuses to the Spirit of Prophecy not because she was a slipshod steward but that is an immense responsibility which not any human entity could bear. Given her background and education as a child she was amazing because God made her so. I also believe God did not always correct the wrongs concerning this immediately but He plans to address them when it comes time to meeting out punishment. I would not want to be among those who are guilty they will pay a high price for their brief advantage by sinning against God's Prophet.

That is my opinion and I believe it to be true. Others may have different views but until I can see convincing evidence that says different I am sticking by this.

[Woody]

I agree with you.

Unfortunately - with the abuse that has happened - EGW now does more harm than good to our church. The Devil has managed to turn something good into something bad.

Because of this ... yes it would be good if we returned to being known as a people of the book.

[John317]

...We Adventists used to be known as the "People of the Book". Meaning the Bible! I am afraid we lost that virgin status a long time ago, even when Ellen White was alive.

We still can be-- I mean many SDAs still are a people of the book.

The problem as I see it is not that they don't study the Bible and instead study Ellen White too much, but that they don't study either the Bible or Ellen White's writings. If people study Ellen White, they will be driven to their Bibles. That's been my experience. Ellen White's writings will cause a reader to fall in love with Jesus and the Bible, and they will want to read His word.

By the way, Ellen White doesn't say that before Chrit comes back, people will read too much of her writings, but rather she says that before Christ returns, there will be an almost Satanic hatred for her writings and that there will be a move within the church to destroy confidence in the Testimonies of the Spirit of God.

Do you see that happening today?

[John317]

THE PROBLEM IS: USING ELLEN G. WHITE TO GET YOUR DOCTRINES AND THEN LYING ABOUT IT BY SAYING SDA ARE A BIBLE AND BIBLE ONLY PEOPLE.

Such a statement is patently false!

Your denials notwithstanding SDA are stating a pure out and out falsehood by asserting they are a Bible and Bible only Church.

Why cannot SDA be honest with themselves and with the rest of the World about this specific point?

ELLEN G. WHITE is not the issue with me, SDA and the way they conduct their business is the issue!

I think you need to be careful that you are making a true, valid accusation about the SDA church.

For one thing, do you understand correctly what it means to say we are a "Bible and Bible only Church"? Are we claiming that we don't study and accept Ellen White as an authority? It sounds like that is how you understand it.

As a church, ought we to be better acquainted with the Bible? Yes, of course. But does that mean that we ought to set Ellen White aside and and read only the Bible? No. In fact, we ought to be more diligent studends of both, and put both into practice.

[Woody]

Quote:

By the way, Ellen White doesn't say that before Chrit comes back, people will read too much of her writings, but rather she says that before Christ returns, there will be an almost Satanic hatred for her writings and that there will be a move within the church to destroy confidence in the Testimonies of the Spirit of God.

Do you see that happening today?

This kind of statement is a great way to ensure one's future legacy don't you think. Very wise. Let none discount our prophet.

[ClubV12]

I for one can really testify to what John said. If and as, you read what Ellen White has to say it WILL drive you to the bible.

I have been substantially impressed how true that has been for me. And vice versa! In reading the bible I find myself consulting what Ellen White had to say on the subject. It like a "loop", I can't fathom one without the other!

One day while reading Matthew I came across 17:1. Which speaks of the transfiguration event AFTER 6 days. I thought, "Six days of WHAT?" What were they doing for six days? Such a simple verse, a simple statement, "six days". Between studying the bible AND Ellen White's writings I got a tremendous blessing out of that "simple verse". Wonderful!

I actually drew out a flow chart of their travels and the time frame that led up to the six days, why and what they were doing. It will make a great sermon someday!

[Woody]

Do not quote my words again as long as you live until you can obey the Bible. When you make the Bible your food, your meat, and your drink, when you make its principles the elements of your character, you will know better how to receive counsel from God, and will be partakers of His divine nature. Let us all search the Scriptures, for in them you will find our Saviour a present help in every time of need. I exalt the precious Word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that." Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands. Christ said, "I must work the works of him that sent Me." The Father and the Son are united. Will you [during this] morning address consecrate yourselves to God? {13MR 248.1}

[John317]

Quote:

By the way, Ellen White doesn't say that before Chrit comes back, people will read too much of her writings, but rather she says that before Christ returns, there will be an almost Satanic hatred for her writings and that there will be a move within the church to destroy confidence in the Testimonies of the Spirit of God.

Do you see that happening today?

This kind of statement is a great way to ensure one's future legacy don't you think. Very wise. Let none discount our prophet.

Please explain.

[Woody]

Quote:

Please explain.

That statement of your's needs balance. She DID state that people would quote her to much.

"Do not repeat what I have said, saying, "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that." Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands. Christ said, "I must work the works of him that sent Me." The Father and the Son are united. Will you [during this] morning address consecrate yourselves to God? {13MR 248.1}

[John317]

Do not quote my words again as long as you live until you can obey the Bible. When you make the Bible your food, your meat, and your drink, when you make its principles the elements of your character, you will know better how to receive counsel from God, and will be partakers of His divine nature. Let us all search the Scriptures, for in them you will find our Saviour a present help in every time of need. I exalt the precious Word before you today. Do not repeat what I have said, saying, "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that." Find out what the Lord God of Israel says, and then do what He commands. Christ said, "I must work the works of him that sent Me." The Father and the Son are united. Will you [during this] morning address consecrate yourselves to God? {13MR 248.1}

So study your Bible. That is her point.

Notice she does not say "Don't read or study my words" until you obey the Bible. She is talking about people who quote her just to support an idea they have when they actually don't follow either the Bible or the Testimonies. As miz3 would say, they are people who are "cherry-picking" Ellen White's writings.

[Woody]

Quote:

Notice she does not say "Don't read my words" until you obey the Bible

“the testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God’s Word is the unerring standard . . . Let all prove their positions from the Scriptures and substantiate every point they claim as truth from the revealed Word of God” (Ev 256). At a meeting held in the Battle Creek College library on the eve of the General Conference of 1901 she told the leaders, “Lay Sister White right to one side. Don’t . . . ever quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible” (SpM 167).