The Paradox of Adventism

[fccool]

First of all, I am not asking this question to "knock on the church out of spite". I just want a good discussion started on the issue that I believe is seldom discussed in this manner.

Adventism is a unique system of beliefs that perhaps is held together by one idea more then any other. That idea is that Adventism is "right", that Adventism represents "truth". It is an idea that has a powerful influence on church members. If challenged, Adventists will digest and interpret information about doctrine with the premise that: "Adventists are right".

The human mind is wired to defend itself against change. When an important belief is challenged and someone makes a credible point against the validity of an Adventist doctrine, the Adventist believer thinks of another Adventist doctrine in which they "know" themselves to be right and also "know" the critic is "wrong", thus trumping any validity to the point made by the critic.

Simply put, Adventism is an "Us versus Them" construction. Usually, Adventists do not deal with one issue at a time because they see churches as "wholes", as systematic doctrinal schemes.

As a result, those who would detract from the validity of Adventism do so with a tremendous handicap. Adventists see the body of doctrines that is "Adventism" to be "the truth" as a whole, or if not all truth, at least the best exposition of truth that exists. Adventists could only expect or accept a valid criticism to come from someone who is right on all points of doctrine, and have a clear system of "truth".

As a result, Adventists will just mentally remind themselves that the critic who makes a good point in one area is wrong about a doctrine that is not under discussion in another area. For example, if a person is wrong on the "state of the dead" and prophetic standing of E.G.White, then he can not be viewed to be qualified to make proper evaluation of Investigative Judgment. So, the validity of "whole or nothing" type of doctrine is perpetuated by each separate doctrine "validating" another. State of the dead thus is necessitated for IJ to be true, and IJ is necessitated by state of the dead to be true.

I do understand that it's a bit of an over-generalization, but I doubt one can honestly say that it's ungrounded. If Adventist believers are reluctant to deal with doctrines "one by one" and therefore will not evaluate doctrines individually, how can one arrive at truth? How can an honest Adventist really come to a fair and honest evaluation of his or her belief system as it is taught in the Adventist Church if the "truth" is a closed loop of rationalized beliefs that dismisses any criticism based on validity of perhaps unrelated doctrine?

[phkrause]

I can agree with you to a certain extent. Maybe many individual adventists believe that. But as a denomination I don't see that at all. When I study my Bible I see only one church that follows the Bible more than any other and that's the reason I'm still an adventist. No church or denomination is perfect thats for sure.

[fccool]

Perhaps you can say that about every church, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

To demonstrate what you mean I'll ask you one more question:

What do you mean by "as denomination"? Isn't denomination consist of individuals who hold certain beliefs? Or do we surrender our mind and will to the organization we call "denomination" ?

This creates a certain dichotomy that can be viewed a somewhat sinister.

1) As individuals, Adventists live and organize the church according to the precepts that I've pointed out. In Sabbath school you can be a full-blow Adventist with all of the "I'm right because E.G. White said so" attitude.

2) For outreach, the word "Adventist" is shunned. E.G. White is not even mentioned. I've tried to look for one word that says "Adventist / SDA E.G. White" on the Amazingfacts.org, and I failed to find a single reference. So it becomes sort of a "sterilized" front for the beliefs that are expanded upon when people are joining the church.

I certainly don't dismiss the fact that one church can follow God more closely than other, YET the assumption on the side of Adventist's that such church is exclusively Adventist, based on doctrinal statement, and not "show and tell". I.E.:

a) We are closer to God because we have the "Spirit of Prophecy"

We are closer to God because we still "observe" the Sabbath

c) We are closer to God because we proclaim the last day message

Is that what it really means to be closer to God? Does it mean that people who have the least doctrinal points correct are the furthest from God, and the ones who got more right are the closest? See where I'm going with this?

[Parade Orange]

i do!

but it will be lost on many!

we are spood fed the TRUTH from the time we sit down church

everything we read in the bible is thru SDA glasses

when i bring up inconstistancie it is questioned AUTOMATICALLY of my sincerity and im considered a troublemaker

if shown in scriptures then pressed further with SOP and i still dont see it or understand they count me out

i see it done time after and most SDA'S dont understand someone in the church not seeing as they do

they are marked and if push comes to shove they are thought as less than in GODS eyes

and if u give a bible study to a seeker and they reject plain words of GOD on SABBATH and such they may have rejected the HOLY SPIRIT or at the least we dropped a seed that will hopefully blossom

nothing else in between!

[fccool]

I've been there, and learned to know better than to be the dissident. The irony is that if the same idea/questions come from progressive pastor who is a guest speaker... these ideas are generally better received and pondered upon.

But, complaining aside, we can move to the pragmatic part of it all.

How do you handle genuine disagreements on doctrinal issues in your church?

Is it a time to be quiet and go with the flow? Is it a time to secretly believe what you do without trying to explain yourself?

Can we find a pragmatic way to concentrate on building a community of people that are striving to find truth, supporting each other, and improving the community .... rather than concentrating our efforts on making sure that we have a "united army of adventist clones" (great name for a band by the way, if you want dibs on it .

P.S. I'm not assuming that such way is not there. Yet, from observing my local church, the case is that people are more concerned with being Adventists and keeping up with the traditional ideas and liturgy, rather than building a functional community that can do much more than 4 hrs of Saturday morning lecture and singing.

[Gary K]

Perhaps you can say that about every church, but that's not really what I'm talking about.

To demonstrate what you mean I'll ask you one more question:

What do you mean by "as denomination"? Isn't denomination consist of individuals who hold certain beliefs? Or do we surrender our mind and will to the organization we call "denomination" ?

This creates a certain dichotomy that can be viewed a somewhat sinister.

1) As individuals, Adventists live and organize the church according to the precepts that I've pointed out. In Sabbath school you can be a full-blow Adventist with all of the "I'm right because E.G. White said so" attitude.

2) For outreach, the word "Adventist" is shunned. E.G. White is not even mentioned. I've tried to look for one word that says "Adventist / SDA E.G. White" on the Amazingfacts.org, and I failed to find a single reference. So it becomes sort of a "sterilized" front for the beliefs that are expanded upon when people are joining the church.

I certainly don't dismiss the fact that one church can follow God more closely than other, YET the assumption on the side of Adventist's that such church is exclusively Adventist, based on doctrinal statement, and not "show and tell". I.E.:

a) We are closer to God because we have the "Spirit of Prophecy"

We are closer to God because we still "observe" the Sabbath

c) We are closer to God because we proclaim the last day message

Is that what it really means to be closer to God? Does it mean that people who have the least doctrinal points correct are the furthest from God, and the ones who got more right are the closest? See where I'm going with this?

fccool,

I disagree with your assertions. I know that SDA's exist who fit them, but they are not the majority. They don't even have a relationship with God as most believe, like a large portion of non-Adventists, that their membership in the church is what will save them. To tell the truth I've never met a person in the SDA church in whom I can see Christ that in any way believes your a,b,and c assertions.

We can have a clearer conception of God through the SOP. We can be closer to God because He states that Sabbath keeping is our acknowledgement that it is He who sanctifies us. Lastly, if we as individuals do believe, and are proclaiming, the last day message of God to the world then we will be closer to God as doing personal evangelism, witnessing for God, etc... will draw us close to God for we will realize our utter helplessness to do this on our own.

[fccool]

Garry,

Do you believe that you are closer to God than any Catholic or Baptist believer because you know and observe the above-described doctrine and rituals?

I think I can be fairly certain that the majority of my local church, and most churches I've visited would answer the above question with a resounding "yes".

Do you believe that your relationship with God depends on you doing or not doing things for God?

I likewise believe that the answer will be a resounding "yes".

[Gary K]

Garry,

Do you believe that you are closer to God than any Catholic or Baptist believer because you know and observe the above-described doctrine and rituals?

I think I can be fairly certain that the majority of my local church, and most churches I've visited would answer the above question with a resounding "yes".

Do you believe that your relationship with God depends on you doing or not doing things for God?

I likewise believe that the answer will be a resounding "yes".

My relationship with God, and my closeness to Him is directly related to whether I surrender self to Him in the things He brings before me and tells me I need to give up.

To answer your question related to denominations, it all depends upon the individual's willingness to surrender self to God. In a denomination that does not teach that self needs to be surrendered to God, nor that it is important to the indivual's relationship with God there will not be a recognition of the need to do that(the surrender of self). Some of the people will do that because they are listening to the Holy Spirit, but when the church teaches that they need not do that, it discourages many of them from entering that deeper relationship.

So, my answer to your question is a maybe, and it is based upon the individual. The fact that the SDA have a deeper understanding of God's will makes us more responsible, not less responsible, for how we live and reflect the character of Christ. However, if we do not acknowledge that responsibility and act on it our head knowledge does us absolutely no good. Theology won't save us. Our SDA membership won't save us. Only a healthy relationship with God puts us in a place where God can save us.

BTW, I disagree with your assertion even though I answered it. I know of very few SDA's who fit the description you say is the dominant thinking within the SDA church, and I've lived in some of largest, and the coldest, conclaves of Adventism. I've also attended a lot of small SDA churches where Christianity is alive and well. Methinks you generalize far too much.

[fccool]

Gary,

What do you mean by "surrendering yourself" to God? Sounds like you guys are at war. Do you mean God having His way instead of you having yours? Does it mean that you don't really want the same things?

[Parade Orange]

Gary,

What do you mean by "surrendering yourself" to God? Sounds like you guys are at war. Do you mean God having His way instead of you having yours? Does it mean that you don't really want the same things?

i dont know u and i dont know your intentions and i dont know your religious background or what church u go to if any

i dont know your posts or where u stand on any issue

i know nothing of u !

but i do know that when one speaks of surrender it means either ...

recognizing GOD IS LORD and SAVIOUR of your life and we submit to HIS LAWS AND DECLARATIONS over our LIVES because HE is our FATHER and we are HIS CHILDREN

and/or

TRUSTING GOD TO SET US RIGHT BY FAITH- believing in HIS FINISHED WORK on the CROSS and there is nothing we can do to set ourselves right

thats because we are born sinners that need HIM to be saved from this wretched world and even need to be saved from ourselves cause our hearts are at enmity with HIM from the womb!

we are at war!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! uhhh thats why we need a NEW HEART

i just had to step in i think everything i said u agree with and understand the scriptures that way

i would hope

but i am speaking out of ignorance or your intentions but i had to say something I HAD TO SAY IT

[Parade Orange]

hey look i know how to box a quote!!!!!!!!! never did that before

this can be fun

[BobRyan]

In the Bible (Matt 7) error is popular and truth is unpopular.

The Adventist church makes the claim that it is accurately reading the Bible and seeing the truth (the unpopular truth) that the Bible defines and promotes.

Thus by associating ourselves with an unpopular element - the truth of Scripture, we share its same popularity.

So this is not a "Believe whatever Adventists say because we are unpopular" model - it is a "Believe the Bible and don't be fooled into thinking that Bible truth is truth by concensus or that it is popular truth" model.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gary K]

Gary,

What do you mean by "surrendering yourself" to God? Sounds like you guys are at war. Do you mean God having His way instead of you having yours? Does it mean that you don't really want the same things?

Hmmm... So, you are telling me that everything God asks of you never conflicts with any of your selfish desires? Or, do you not have a selfish nature?

The Bible tells us that our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. That's my carnal nature, and yours. It must be surrendered day-by-day, moment-by-moment, to God. That's the only way it can be overcome. You and I cannot change our spots. Only God can change them, and He can only change them if we allow Him to do that work within us.

[Flyboy]

How do you handle genuine disagreements on doctrinal issues in your church?

Is it a time to be quiet and go with the flow? Is it a time to secretly believe what you do without trying to explain yourself?

This is exactly what I've done. I don't have issues with the doctrines but other issues that are less clear, yes. I do not speak to people in my immediate environs openly about these issues. That a Christian could feel that way about exploring truth is indicative of a problem. Overgeneralization or not, people do, in fact, feel this way and thus it is a valid concern.

But how exactly am I to go about deconstructing this generalization about my church, by asking questions, when there is a corresponding inverse ratio of my credibility in the eyes of those who I ask, and all those they talk to.

I would only be stoking the flames of my own self-immolation within the church.

[karl]

Adventism is a unique system of beliefs that perhaps is held together by one idea more then any other. That idea is that Adventism is "right", that Adventism represents "truth".

How many ideas or belief systems do you ascribe to that you consider to be "wrong" or "false?" And why would you be interested in said ideas or belief systems?

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: fccool

How do you handle genuine disagreements on doctrinal issues in your church?

Is it a time to be quiet and go with the flow? Is it a time to secretly believe what you do without trying to explain yourself?

This is exactly what I've done. I don't have issues with the doctrines but other issues that are less clear, yes. I do not speak to people in my immediate environs openly about these issues. That a Christian could feel that way about exploring truth is indicative of a problem. Overgeneralization or not, people do, in fact, feel this way and thus it is a valid concern.

But how exactly am I to go about deconstructing this generalization about my church, by asking questions, when there is a corresponding inverse ratio of my credibility in the eyes of those who I ask, and all those they talk to.

I would only be stoking the flames of my own self-immolation within the church.

I certainly don't have a problem with someone searching for truth, for God does not lead everyone through the same steps at the same time. That being said, when someone has made up their mind that most things about the SDA church are wrong, and they have settled in their mind that SDA doctrines are wrong, then why stick around?

Personally, I could never stick around. If I believed SDA theology was wrong, and that Ellen White was either a false prophet or no prophet, I would be leaving the SDA church asap. I just could never associate myself with that which I believe to be untrue, as that would be a form of dishonesty. I would be lying about what I stand for.

I would see it as no different than working for a dishonest company and cheating their customers just because the boss told me I had to. I would be smeared with the same sin of dishonesty. I've been in this exact situation multiple times during my life. I quit a half-dozen jobs, and was fired from twice, over a period of 20 years because I refused to participate in that behavior.

I just can't look at myself in the mirror every morning, or face God every day knowing I am deliberately being dishonest with people. I'm far from perfect, but my conscience just will not allow me to be dishonest in either way.

[Flyboy]

...when someone has made up their mind that most things about the SDA church are wrong, and they have settled in their mind that SDA doctrines are wrong, then why stick around?

Personally, I could never stick around. If I believed SDA theology was wrong, and that Ellen White was either a false prophet or no prophet, I would be leaving the SDA church asap.

Don't raise the bar here. I don't think either fccool, in the opening question of this thread, or myself, said anything about most of SDA doctrine being wrong. In fact, I said exactly the opposite... that I agree with the doctrines but have some issues with a few other non-doctrinal beliefs/practices. If I didn't believe, I too would leave.

As for EGW, while I believe in her writings, and I certainly believe that any organized institution has the right to include/exclude members based on their stated acceptance of the rules of the body in question, I have never been entirely comfortable with EGW being a fundamental belief. Shouldn't all of our doctrines be Bible from square 1? Lowering her status to a non-doctrinal belief would not diminish her importance to anyone, but it would send a message to non-SDA that the Bible is THE authority in our beliefs. After all, I'd say most people in Heaven, once we all get chatting up there, will have never heard of EGW.

[Gerr]

Adventists could only expect or accept a valid criticism to come from someone who is right on all points of doctrine, and have a clear system of "truth".

Wrong premise, so the conclusions will be wrong. One of the genius of the Advent MOVEMENT is the recogniction that truth is progressive. The SDAC did not arrive at the 28 fundamentals overnight. My mind is not frozen so that it cannot accept new truths. Look at many of the churches that came out of the Reformation. When their founders died, they took no further steps to discover new truths. What most of the detractors are bringing to this forum are NOT new truths; they are just bringing up errors that SDAs have discarded along their way to finding the truth.

Originally Posted By: fccool

Adventism is a unique system of beliefs that perhaps is held together by one idea more then any other. That idea is that Adventism is "right", that Adventism represents "truth". It is an idea that has a powerful influence on church members. If challenged, Adventists will digest and interpret information about doctrine with the premise that: "Adventists are right".

Not unique on this point. No church that I know operates on the premise that they are wrong!

[Gerr]

a) We are closer to God because we have the "Spirit of Prophecy"

We are closer to God because we still "observe" the Sabbath

c) We are closer to God because we proclaim the last day message

I have never seen any such claims in any church publication that I've read. The opposite is true - we have laid claim to lukewarm Laodicea from the early days of the church.

[Haldog]

Good topic fccool!

Having been in the SDA church for 40+ years and then leaving I see your point clearly and agree. I LOVED being an SDA! I went to SDA schools, dated SDA girls, married an SDA, worked for the SDA health system, ate SDA food, drank SDA drinks and best of all, ate at SDA potlucks!

One reason I loved it was because I knew that I was "right". It broke my heart to leave but after a significant time studying scripture I could no longer support a church which refused to change doctrine, even when it was clearly shown (in my opinion of course) that the doctrines and beliefs were not consistent with the Word of God.

Since leaving 3-4 years ago I have encountered numerous friends and family who while being "faithful" SDA's were completey unable to justify or show me their beliefs in the Word. For them it was enough "knowing" that they were right and there was no way I could be right. Not even on one single point.

Shalom

[phkrause]

Gary,

What do you mean by "surrendering yourself" to God? Sounds like you guys are at war. Do you mean God having His way instead of you having yours? Does it mean that you don't really want the same things?

Not trying to talk for Gary, but I believe Paul does a very good job of explaining what "surrendering yourself" to God meant to him. I'd say that's what it would be to me. If you need to Bible text for that just let me know.

[Gail]

It often feels like a war- a battle with self!

This is an important question and thanks for starting it, whoever did.

In relation to this, does anyone get the feeling that many of us simply don't know what it means to live and walk by faith? That we cannot give a reason for our faith, except to parrot what we've heard all our lives?

That may be one reason why I love to hear how the Spirit has led in people's lives. That is something you cannot learn from a book, but through personal experience. I love the theory but even more the practice- what Christ does in a life.

[Gail]

Or...

Maybe we feel that soul work is not needed if we have all the ideas in the right place and in the right order.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gary K

...when someone has made up their mind that most things about the SDA church are wrong, and they have settled in their mind that SDA doctrines are wrong, then why stick around?

Personally, I could never stick around. If I believed SDA theology was wrong, and that Ellen White was either a false prophet or no prophet, I would be leaving the SDA church asap.

Don't raise the bar here. I don't think either fccool, in the opening question of this thread, or myself, said anything about most of SDA doctrine being wrong. In fact, I said exactly the opposite... that I agree with the doctrines but have some issues with a few other non-doctrinal beliefs/practices. If I didn't believe, I too would leave.

As for EGW, while I believe in her writings, and I certainly believe that any organized institution has the right to include/exclude members based on their stated acceptance of the rules of the body in question, I have never been entirely comfortable with EGW being a fundamental belief. Shouldn't all of our doctrines be Bible from square 1? Lowering her status to a non-doctrinal belief would not diminish her importance to anyone, but it would send a message to non-SDA that the Bible is THE authority in our beliefs. After all, I'd say most people in Heaven, once we all get chatting up there, will have never heard of EGW.

Who is raising the bar? Not me. I was just talking about those who have made up their mind to reject all SDA doctrine, rejected Ellen White, and yet claim to be SDAs. I never claimed you nor fccool have done that. That would be pretty stupid as both of you have stated that you haven't.

I never said Ellen White is a fundamental belief. Her message is, however, a central theme in Adventism. If I were to completely reject her as a prophet I would see the SDA church as promoting falsehood. I wouldn't want to remain an SDA with that understanding of Adventism, and most likely would have rejected all the pillars of Adventism by that time anyway.

[Gary K]

It often feels like a war- a battle with self!

This is an important question and thanks for starting it, whoever did.

In relation to this, does anyone get the feeling that many of us simply don't know what it means to live and walk by faith? That we cannot give a reason for our faith, except to parrot what we've heard all our lives?

That may be one reason why I love to hear how the Spirit has led in people's lives. That is something you cannot learn from a book, but through personal experience. I love the theory but even more the practice- what Christ does in a life.

Absolutely. Most see a life lived by faith as legalism. I like to say faith is a verb as the Bible always associates it with actions. Faith and works cannot be separated. According to the Bible they are inextricably intertwined.