The Paradox of Adventism

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Ahh. You're just tryin' to one up me pk

I did agree with the post.

me 2 in addition to one uping Wayne. :)

[Gerr]

While I agree that Jesus is the Truth, if I believed that we are just one church among many who are teaching that Truth Jesus, I wouldn't be wasting time and resources in it.

[Woody]

While I agree that Jesus is the Truth, if I believed that we are just one church among many who are teaching that Truth Jesus, I wouldn't be wasting time and resources in it.

What would you be doing? Supporting one of the other churches that teach truth? I don't see that it matters. You are still supporting Jesus.

[fccool]

While I agree that Jesus is the Truth, if I believed that we are just one church among many who are teaching that Truth Jesus, I wouldn't be wasting time and resources in it.

So, all of the other Churches are wasting their time teaching that truth?

[Gary K]

The Adventist church takes a specific stand on the 1Cor 12 Bible teaching on spiritual gifts - in that we claim they are still valid. More than that we claim that the Gift of Prophecy is not merely "forth telling" because such a thing blurrs the line between teachers in 1Cor 12 and prophets in 1Cor 12 -- and such a definition does not work at all in 1Cor 14 or in Numbers 12.

And finally we believe that Ellen White is an example of someone who had the legit gift of prophecy in recent history.

in Christ,

Bob

I have no problem with any of that. I agree with it. But, it is not a fundamental belief. I just re-read the written SDA fundamental beliefs, and I don't see any fundamental belief that says, Ellen White is a prophet. I do see a fundamental belief in spiritual gifts, and many fundamental beliefs which Ellen White wrote and spoke about.

You're going to have to show me the where the SDA church has a written fundamental belief that states Ellen White is a prophet. Is she a central theme in our church? Yes, most definitely. But no where does the SDA church state Ellen White is a fundamental belief of the church.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

While I agree that Jesus is the Truth, if I believed that we are just one church among many who are teaching that Truth Jesus, I wouldn't be wasting time and resources in it.

What would you be doing? Supporting one of the other churches that teach truth? I don't see that it matters. You are still supporting Jesus.

Woody,

What is the difference between the tactics of the devil and the tactics God uses in the Great Controversy taking place at this time here on earth?

[fccool]

Quote:

just re-read the written SDA fundamental beliefs, and I don't see any fundamental belief that says, Ellen White is a prophet.

That's sort of what I'm talking about. You know that the church believes that she is a prophet. Prophets have gift of prophecy, that's why they are prophets ... because of this gift .

If the church believes that, then they should be upfront and honest about it, instead of presenting it as the last thing at the prophecy seminar.

[Woody]

Ellen White refused to call herself a 'Prophet' . Instead she chose the term 'messenger'.

"I am not to appear before the people as holding any other position than that of a messenger with a message"-- Testimonies for the Church, 8: 237."

This brings up the question ... Who is a messenger?

During Ellen White's days ... ALL pastors were referred to "messengers".

Ellen White describes those in ministry as being the messengers:

"God's chosen messengers, who are engaged in aggressive labor, should never be compelled to go a warfare at their own charges, unaided by the sympathetic and hearty support of their brethren. It is the part of church members to deal liberally with those who lay aside their secular employment that they may give themselves to the ministry. When God's ministers are encouraged, His cause is greatly advanced. But when, through the selfishness of men, their rightful support is withheld, their hands are weakened, and often their usefulness is seriously crippled." AA 340

"The displeasure of God is kindled against those who claim to be His followers, yet allow consecrated workers to suffer for the necessities of life while engaged in active ministry. These selfish ones will be called to render an account, not only for the misuse of their Lord's money, but for the depression and heartache which their course has brought upon His faithful servants. Those who are called to the work of the ministry, and at the call of duty give up all to engage in God's service, should receive for their self-sacrificing efforts wages sufficient to support themselves and their families." AA 340

"When God's messengers recognize their responsibilities toward the needy portions of the Lord's vineyard, and in the spirit of the Master Worker labor untiringly for the conversion of souls, the angels of God will prepare the way before them, and the means necessary for the carrying forward of the work will be provided. Those who are enlightened will give freely to support the work done in their behalf. They will respond liberally to every call for help, and the Spirit of God will move upon their hearts to sustain the Lord's cause not only in the home fields, but in the regions beyond. Thus strength will come to the working forces in other places, and the work of the Lord will advance in His own appointed way." AA 357

"Why do some of our ministers manifest so little interest in health reform? It is because instruction on temperance in all things is opposed to their practice of self-indulgence. In some places this has been the great stumbling block in the way of our bringing the people to investigate and practice and teach health reform. No one should be set apart as a teacher of the people while his or her own teaching or example contradicts the testimony God has given His servants to bear in regard to diet, for this will bring confusion. Disregard of health reform unfits one to stand as the Lord’s messenger." BLJ 291

"He who gave back to the widow her only son as he was carried to the burial is touched today by the woe of the bereaved mother. He who wept tears of sympathy at the grave of Lazarus and gave back to Martha and Mary their buried brother; who pardoned Mary Magdalene; who remembered His mother when He was hanging in agony upon the cross; who appeared to the weeping women and made them His messengers to spread the first glad tidings of a risen Saviour--He is woman's best friend today and is ready to aid her in all the relations of life." AH 204

"Messengers should be appointed who can present the Word of God from city to city". -Manuscript 52, 1900.

Yes. We are called to be His messenger to tell of the risen Saviour.

[Tom Wetmore]

Now you opened another can of worms...

[fccool]

It does not matter what she called herself, or refused to call herself. If she claimed to receive visions and messages from God... then she automatically has a claim to a prophet.

[ClubV12]

Ha Ha, your right Tom, thats a BIG can of worms Woody just opened. Right off the bat I see tithe and cheese are on the menu!

Beleiving in Ellen White is not a test of faith. BUT, depending on your position; Education and time within the church structure "fighting against" her prophetic gifts could be a test of faith at some point for some people.

[skyblue888]

Thousands upon thousands in this world proclaim that Jesus is all they need and yet they do not undersand His speech. John 8:43. Many are saying, "Lord, Lord," and yet the Lord will say to them, "I do not know you. Depart from me all ye workers of iniquity." Luke 13:27.

Jesus is all we need but we must make sure we have the genuine article. There are many false Christs. The living Christ leads into all truth. He has sent the Holy Spirit, His representative, to teach us all things pertaining to godliness. 1 John 2:20,27. "He shall teach you all things." John 14:26.

How many of you here believe that the Holy Spirit not only can teach you all things but that it is His will that you know all things? It is essential that we know all things for "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free." John 8:32.

We need every ray of light that God sends in order to be the light of the world. We need to know and understand not only the truth that God has revealed in the past, we also need to keep pace with the advancing light.

"You are the light of the world." Matt.5:14.

sky

[Tom Wetmore]

... I am not so sure you see which can of worms I was talking about.

But Woody knows, don't you, Woody!

[Woody]

... I am not so sure you see which can of worms I was talking about.

But Woody knows, don't you, Woody!

I use worms for fishing.

But while doing so I pray that I don't land anything such as the topic Tom is referring to. I do gentle hinting. But woe to me if THE topic is landed. THE topic like none other. If you want to be attacked - just barely breathe it.

[BobRyan]

The Adventist church takes a specific stand on the 1Cor 12 Bible teaching on spiritual gifts - in that we claim they are still valid. More than that we claim that the Gift of Prophecy is not merely "forth telling" because such a thing blurrs the line between teachers in 1Cor 12 and prophets in 1Cor 12 -- and such a definition does not work at all in 1Cor 14 or in Numbers 12.

And finally we believe that Ellen White is an example of someone who had the legit gift of prophecy in recent history.

[Tom Wetmore]

OK. I'm a dumb fish. I'll take the bait... And with a worm on my tongue I will anxiously await the rest of the can of worms to be thrown overboard for the rest of us dumb fish to have a snack or worm flesh!

According to the gospel of EGW:

Pastor/Minister = Messenger

EGW = Messenger

Sooo... ipso facto, EGW = Pastor/Minister (and visa versa I would suppose...)

But wait... there's more...

If as she said, she was "more than a prophet" than it only follows that a messenger must be "more than a prophet" and if pastors/ministers are messengers, they each would likewise be "more than a prophet."

OK, last bite for now... What exactly does it mean to be "more than a prophet"?

Oh, did I forget to mention EGW was therefore a female messenger/pastor/minister.

[BobRyan]

It does not matter what she called herself, or refused to call herself. If she claimed to receive visions and messages from God... then she automatically has a claim to a prophet.

“Why have I not claimed to be a prophet? Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word prophet signifies.”—Review and Herald, July 26, 1906, cited in Selected Messages, book 1, p. 32.

Selected Messages, book 1, p. 34. To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.”

[ClubV12]

Hey, theres more worms in that can than I realized!

...but don't shoot the messenger. :)

[Woody]

Quote:

Oh, did I forget to mention EGW was therefore a female messenger/pastor/minister.

You are exactly correct Tom. And boy you have landed a big one this time.

[BobRyan]

if pastors/ministers are messengers, they each would likewise be "more than a prophet."

[Woody]

Quote:

But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out.”

That would be correct. We are not to call her anything more than a messenger/pastor.

[Overaged]

Quote:

just re-read the written SDA fundamental beliefs, and I don't see any fundamental belief that says, Ellen White is a prophet.

That's sort of what I'm talking about. You know that the church believes that she is a prophet. Prophets have gift of prophecy, that's why they are prophets ... because of this gift .

If the church believes that, then they should be upfront and honest about it, instead of presenting it as the last thing at the prophecy seminar.

They are quite upfront and honest about it. Changing the order of presentation around the way you say, will not suddenly confer "honesty" to it. I think perhaps you need to review some of our fundamental teachings and practices, before you make such pronouncements.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

... I am not so sure you see which can of worms I was talking about.

But Woody knows, don't you, Woody!

I use worms for fishing.

But while doing so I pray that I don't land anything such as the topic Tom is referring to. I do gentle hinting. But woe to me if THE topic is landed. THE topic like none other. If you want to be attacked - just barely breathe it.

Alright. I can't stand it! What are you two talking about? LOL

[Flyboy]

Beleiving in Ellen White is not a test of faith. BUT, depending on your position; Education and time within the church structure "fighting against" her prophetic gifts could be a test of faith at some point for some people.

It may not be a test of faith, but it has been a test of employment in two (of three) church job interviews I have had in North America.

[ClubV12]

As it should be a condition of CHURCH related employment in many cases! If you are going to be supported by a Seventh Day Adventist payroll you should have had enough time to settle the question once and for all.