The 1896 Sabbath School Lesson -- What changed?

[Gustave]

Pastor Chick,

Good to see you online again Pastor Chick....

...Way back in the day you hosted a discussion with me on your website.

...Creation Advent or something to that effect.

...We talked about "authority" in the Church.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I still don't get it. What is the fundamental problem with the SS lesson as it regards current thinking and/or current established doctrine now as opposed to then?

Hi ClubV12,

To summarize what the question is asking (Cliff-notes style), the post from the SSQ shows that the Church once accepted the position that to rely upon the state for the establishment or defense of doctrine and the Church's institutions was an indication of a "fallen" system. Since this does not appear to be the position of the Church NOW, as it does (and I've found much evidence to support this myself) tend to rely strongly on the power of the state for a great many things (and protecting its name from "other groups" with a federal trademark and a series of lawsuits is only one of several examples)... the question is, "Why has this position been changed?"

If it was changed based on increasing light, surely there will be Bible verses and passages that support it. If the pioneers were mistaken on their position, and one person who posted before I did seems to say that "Since there is no indication that the SSQ material was voted on, it shouldn't be trusted as the Church's position," then why was the original position embraced by the SSQ author wrong? I think it is a valid question, at least worthy of some consideration.

Thanks Scoin! You took the words right out of my fingers. Question: Could the corporate Seventh-Day Adventist Church be 'our' own worst enemy some day?

[Pastor_Chick]

Pastor Chick,

Good to see you online again Pastor Chick....

...Way back in the day you hosted a discussion with me on your website.

...Creation Advent or something to that effect.

...We talked about "authority" in the Church.

Gustave,

Thank you for the welcome. Please forgive my small loss of memory. I have been at this a long time and do not recall all of my past interactions.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

[...]

Question: Could the corporate Seventh-Day Adventist Church be 'our' own worst enemy some day?

Dr. Rich,

"Someday" has already come for us who live by conscience. I object to your idea of being our "savior" if we had only known you (somewhere mentioned in the thread). Obviously, you have not studied the history of our motives and actions.

Anyway, prophecy tells us that our "former brethren" will be our "greatest enemies." When they take us to court for conscience' sake, sanction me $68,000 (plus), and press the Feds to incarcerate my assistant pastor and me until I pay the money and we promise to give up our faith, I would say that qualifies as "our own worst enemy" TODAY.

Did I become a little "emotional" here? I wonder why? I invite one professed SDA to step into my shoes and maintain their "corporate image policy."

[ClubV12]

Any group needs to adapt to the demands of the age they live in, without sacraficing fundamental principle. It doesn't really take "new light" or "new bible verses" to figure out that it's OK to quit using horses now and drive an automobile instead.

It also applies to trademark laws, in my opinion. Not a big deal back in the day, potentially a VERY big deal today. Protection is not just a good idea, it's something in this day and age that needs to be pursued. It would be very foolish indeed to not do so.

Now, can we find some balance? I DO hope in this pursuit of trademark issues it is not done from a spirit of anger or inciting a riot or unchristian like behaviour. Of course, you can't keep all the people happy all the time in that regards, so you have to move forward anyway.

By the way, I am having some very serious issues with the Conference myself, but I've not much to say about that here. So, I do understand your pain to some degree Chick.

[Pastor_Chick]

Any group needs to adapt to the demands of the age they live in, without sacraficing fundamental principle. [...]

[...]

Now, can we find some balance? I DO hope in this pursuit of trademark issues it is not done from a spirit of anger or inciting a riot or unchristian like behaviour. Of course, you can't keep all the people happy all the time in that regards, so you have to move forward anyway.

By the way, I am having some very serious issues with the Conference myself, but I've not much to say about that here. So, I do understand your pain to some degree Chick.

Hello Club,

I am not picking on you. I was getting ready to add to my last post, and yours came in before I submitted what I intended to add for Dr. Rich.

This is not about "pain." This is about "godly sorrow." Christ was a "man of sorrows." He suffered much, but His most heart-felt pain was for others. On one occasion He "wept." It was not for Himself or Lazarus, but for the unbelieving Jews.

Yes, in my humanity, I experience some "pain." I possess more "righteous indignation" than anything. Why? Because people are being led astray by worldly policy and other devices of "our greatest enemy" -- Satan.

I live "true as steel to principle." I do not commit sin. Yes, you read me right. I do not commit sin. (see 1 John 3:6-9) I love all people. I love the Devil. Why? Because that is the character of YAHWEH. He is LOVE. "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Rom. 13:10)

Now, even IF I could compromise and join the "corporate image protectors" of Adventism, I would NOT qualify to join the SDA Church because I do not subscribe to the Trinity doctrine. So, I am disqualified on TWO cardinal issues. BUT, I am a faithful "Adventist." I am a brother to James White, Joseph Bates, J. N. Loughborough, and a host of other SDA pioneers who would likely be with me today.

I am willing to give my life for "the faith once delivered to the saints." And many who claim to be advocates of that "most precious faith," are ready to take my life (after exiling me from my country and bankrupting me and my church) all "in the name of the LORD."

I look forward to the judgment, for I have walked in my integrity. I have no question about my destiny, and that is my consolation. Thanks be to YAHWEH, my refuge. But, I cry for Israel; I lament her back-sliding and "sigh and cry for the abominations done in the midst of her."

If the 1896 SSL principles were believed by "God's professed people" today, you would see a different church. She would be suffering persecution, but she would be making herself ready for the soon coming of her Husband.

Thank you for caring.

[Pastor_Chick]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

[...]

[...]

Question: Could the corporate Seventh-Day Adventist Church be 'our' own worst enemy some day?

Dr. Rich,

"Someday" has already come for us who live by conscience. I object to your idea of being our "savior" if we had only known you (somewhere mentioned in the thread). Obviously, you have not studied the history of our motives and actions.

Anyway, prophecy tells us that our "former brethren" will be our "greatest enemies." When they take us to court for conscience' sake, sanction me $68,000 (plus), and press the Feds to incarcerate my assistant pastor and me until I pay the money and we promise to give up our faith, I would say that qualifies as "our own worst enemy" TODAY.

Did I become a little "emotional" here? I wonder why? I invite one professed SDA to step into my shoes and maintain their "corporate image policy."

Oh, and I wanted to add this.

The General Conference leaders know they have done wrong, or they would be bragging in all of their journals and periodicals about how they defeated the Creation Seventh Day Adventists all the way to the Supreme Court. In every other SDA trademark case, they have made a big deal about their victories, even when they were located in foreign jourisdictions. This one is the "greatest" victory of all, but we hear only silence.

So, you will find NOT ONE article written about this 6-year legal confrontation in an Adventist paper. Oh, "Adventist Today" wanted "the scoop" and suddenly got "cold feet." Why? I'll let you make that call.

While many of you support what the General Conference leaders do in protecting "the good name of the church," there are others (maybe many) who would not swallow it. The tithes would tumble, and the empire would crash if they knew where the tithe was going.

What the leading men did not foresee was that I would survive the war and go international. Now, the conflict will be on the international scale, not merely in the USA. We shall see what they do next.

[BobRyan]

[...]

Our position on appealing to the state to enforce doctrine has never changed.

[...]

[BobRyan]

Now, even IF I could compromise and join the "corporate image protectors" of Adventism, I would NOT qualify to join the SDA Church because I do not subscribe to the Trinity doctrine. So, I am disqualified on TWO cardinal issues.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

[...]

[...]

Question: Could the corporate Seventh-Day Adventist Church be 'our' own worst enemy some day?

Dr. Rich,

"Someday" has already come for us who live by conscience. I object to your idea of being our "savior" if we had only known you (somewhere mentioned in the thread). Obviously, you have not studied the history of our motives and actions.

Anyway, prophecy tells us that our "former brethren" will be our "greatest enemies." When they take us to court for conscience' sake, sanction me $68,000 (plus), and press the Feds to incarcerate my assistant pastor and me until I pay the money and we promise to give up our faith, I would say that qualifies as "our own worst enemy" TODAY.

Did I become a little "emotional" here? I wonder why? I invite one professed SDA to step into my shoes and maintain their "corporate image policy."

I will make an offer to pay them off in full and show you what remedy to take to settle your problems with them. Just contact me in the private section. This is what I do for a living. Don't mess with the truth!

[Naraiel]

There were some principles taught in 1896, just four years after EGW said, "the loud cry of the third angel has already begun in the revelation of the righteousness of Christ," that are no longer taken seriously among leaders and laity of mainline Adventism.

Why the change?

It was understood by the 1896 SDA Church that two dangerous categories of corporate back-sliding exist:

1) "Babylon": after having imbibed pagan errors causing confusion (from which recovery is possible), and

2) "Babylon fallen": the condition of no return as the result of joining hands with the state and using the power of civil government rather than the word of God

Here is an online source in case the images below do not load:

http://home.netcom.com/~crmin/csdachurch/1896sabb.html

Looking forward to your understandings.

Those statements are very interesting.

The PRINCIPLES found on this study lesson are very clear to me. It is amazing to realize that what the SDA Church [from 1896] once taught and believed is not even mentioned or taught to the SDA churches of today.

From this reading I conclude that any Church, once raised or guided by God, that imbibed pagan errors becomes part of spiritual Babylon or becomes a member of Babylon’s family.

But if "that church" in a Babylonical spiritual condition looks for protection from unbelievers, [the world, Cesar], to employ a "civil law" to defend its institutions and penalize fellow men and women, THEN that church becomes part of Babylon fallen, a persecuting religious power.

When that happens Christ call “others”, a faithful remnant, to come out from the new formed Babylon church [that ONCE was faithful to God, but that NOW has fallen in spiritual adultery with the world] to form a new Body of Christ to fulfill His will.

I have noticed that the 1896 SDA Sabbath Lesson especifies that Christ does not call a church Babylon, UNLESS she stops walking according to the light and counsels that God has revealed to her, or warned her.

This Quote from Ellen White also relates in a way to the SDA 1896 Sabbath School Lesson.

“We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel… We are in danger of becoming a SISTER to FALLEN BABYLON, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage of every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?” [Maniscrip Release Vol21 page 380]

Ellen White said in HER DAYS, that if the camp of Israel [referring to the SDA Church] didn't repent collectively as a Church to reform certain sinful practices ASAP, when she was alive, the natural consequences of chaos, sinful corruption, and uncleanness would manifest sooner or later in the church, as cage filled with every foul spirit and unclean and hateful bird.

Most people ackowledge that if a house or a room is not cleaned regularly, then it will become uglier, dirtier,and repulsive, not only to men but also to a Holy God who hates sin.

The Holy Scriptures say: "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Gal 6:7

-------------------------------------------------

The Holy Scriptures tell us that God loves the sinner, and that Christ loved us first, when we were sinners, but ONCE the sinner COMES TO Christ and RECEIVES Christ's life and Spirit in him or her; that individual becomes a WHOLE NEW CREATURE, by the power Word of the Creator. And he or she will sin no more. Christ will not only remove guilt from our souls but He will also give us His power and grace to overcome Satan's temptations to sin, carnal tendencies, the world's influences, the beast and the image of the beast. This is the Eternal Gospel of Christ, these are the good news.

Any church that has been corrupted by the spiritual condition of Babylon or Babylon Fallen DO NOT TESTIFY of the Eternal Gospel of Victory over sin, as a personal and real experience.

"i]Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous.He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

"For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous...Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

"But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. Read 1 Jhon Chapter 3.

---------------------------------------------------

That I May Know Him, by Ellen White [Page 113-115]

"Conversion has become a matter of perplexity to many because of the confusing doctrines that are taught in regard to what is religion. Coming to Christ means something more than belonging to the church. There are many whose names are registered on the leaves of the church record but whose names are not written in the Lamb’s book of life. Coming to Christ does not require a severe mental effort and agony. It is simply accepting the terms of salvation that God has made plain in His Word.

God desires the willing service of our hearts. He has endowed us with reasoning faculties, with talents of ability, and with means and influence, to be exercised for the good of mankind, that we may manifest His spirit before the world. Precious opportunities and privileges are placed within our reach, and if we neglect them we rob others, we defraud our own souls, and dishonor our Maker. We shall not want to meet these slighted opportunities and neglected privileges in the day of judgment. Our eternal interests for the future depend on the present diligent performance of duty in improving the talents that God has given into our trust for the salvation of souls....

True religion works out the principles of God’s law—love to God and love to man. Those who will be accepted of Heaven will have put their talents out to the exchangers for the glory of God and the good of humanity. They will have become laborers together with God, and will receive the approval of the Master when He comes in the clouds of heaven.

"Religion is something more than a profession, something deeper than an impulsive feeling. It is doing the will of God.For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20.

The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was of a selfish character, consisting of external forms. The righteousness which God requires is internal as well as external. The heart must be purified, else Christ cannot be enthroned there. The life must be conformed to the will of God.

"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." 1 Th 4:3-7

Human devices, human plans, and human counsels will be without power. Only in Christ Jesus will the Church near the period of Christ’s coming be able to stand. She is required of her Redeemer to advance in piety, to have increasing zeal, understanding better as she nears the end that her own “high calling” is “of God in Christ Jesus.”

There are glorious truths to come before the people of God. Privileges and duties which they do not even suspect to be in the Bible will be laid open before the followers of Christ. As they follow on in the path of humble obedience, doing God’s will, they will know more and more of the oracles of God, and be established in right doctrines.

Every one who has a realizing sense of what it means to be a Christian will purify himself from everything that weakens and defiles. All the habits of his life will be brought into harmony with the requirements of the Word of truth, and he will not only believe, but will work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, while submitting to the molding of the Holy Spirit.

-------------------------------------------------------

If we are going to stand, as sons and daughters of God, without condemation or blemish before a Holy God, we cannot be found guilty of other people's sins by association, or by offering any kind of support. Read Revelation 18.

Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" Amo 3:3

Satan has done a good job in the world, governments, apostate churches, and with carnal men by motivating a re-definition of words, and concepts. Concepts like religious freedom, freedom of concience, conversion, grace, salvation, love, faith, Church of Christ, repentance, etc, are mentioned and taught frecuently in the world and in fallen churches, but they are taught with a different intelect, a mindset that is contrary to the Mind or Intelect of Christ. Only coverted christians will believe and defend the true meanings or concepts that the Creator placed upon His Kingdom, and His Word for our salvation. The Righteous don't live by every word that come out from the mouth of fallen men, but by every word of the Living and Holy God.

Please make sure your concepts of God's love, salvation, rest [from sin], grace, liberty of concience, Babylon, Babylon fallen, repentance, etc, AGREE with the PRINCIPLES of His Word. You need to discover these things by yourselves, with prayer and by personal study of your Bible. Everyone is accountable before God for his/her own salvation. You can read the Bible without human interpreters. God has giving us brains to think, and if we ask Him for wisdom, He will give us to those who ask and believe in Him.

Dear ones, make sure you are not worshipping an idol, called God, Lord, or Jesus, that is not identical to the character of the God and Jesus of the Bible.

"He that rejecteth [Jesus], and receiveth not [[His] words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that [He] have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." Jhon 12:48

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 1 Jhon 1.

Blessings,

[Dr. Rich]

LOL, it appears EGW goofed by saying that the third angel's message had already started and then incorrectly defined who was 'Babylon'. Shoot, the time of trouble will not start until the Spring equinox of 2016, so she way way off on her timing! And of course the three angels don't blow their horns till all of the events found in Rev. 8:7-12 are completed. Hmmmm? Don't tell me that someone jumped the gun!

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

1. Our position on law and doctrine is that we cannot use the power of the state do dictate what others must believe.

[...]

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

So, what I am understanding is that since I have a mandate from God to identify myself as "Creation Seventh Day Adventist," and this is a "sincerely held belief" as discovered and admitted by the United States District Court and the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals, "[Your] position on law and doctrine is that [you] cannot use the power of the state [to] dictate what believe.

But, I further understand that you CAN have me jailed and monetarily sanctioned for my "sincerely held belief."

Thank you for your testimony.

[BobRyan]

So, what I am understanding is that since I have a mandate from God to identify myself as "Creation Seventh Day Adventist," and this is a "sincerely held belief" as discovered and admitted by the United States District Court and the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals, "[Your] position on law and doctrine is that [you] cannot use the power of the state [to] dictate what believe.

But, I further understand that you CAN have me jailed and monetarily sanctioned for my "sincerely held belief."

You may believe you have had a direct vision from God of a sign with the name "Creation Seventh-day Adventist Church" written on it and directing you to illegally co-opt the SDA name even though you admit that you are not Adventist in doctrine when it comes to the Triune Godhead. (John says to "test the spirits" in 1John 4).

You may believe God told you to sacrifice a live chicken in all your neighbor's front yards every tuesday as a peace offering to God. (1John 4 comes to mind again).

Certainly there is a lot of that sort of thing going around.

But our position is that while you are free to believe and teach whatever you like - when it comes to actually violating civil laws that do not transgress the Law of God - you are on your own.

There is no 11th commandment in actual scripture telling you to engage in that form of infringement so your argument is not from scripture - but from your own imagination.

We have never made a case that people who simply make stuff up - can then violate civil laws. For example when Joseph Smith made up the idea that God told him to have multiple wives - we never argued that the state was in error to enforce the more Biblical position on Marriage nor did we object at all to state laws against homosexuality no matter who may have imagined that God told them to engage in such sins.

Our position on slavery and prohibition, and homosexuality and abortion is that the moral values of the last six commandments can be legislated. Hence that whole prohibition thing.

We do not believe you can legislate worship -- so let us say for example you believe that when you pray to God you must always say in prayer "God I am a Creation Seventh-day Adventist and I come before you today to ask that ..." .

No law against it.

No change in our position.

in Christ,

Bob

[Pastor_Chick]

Originally Posted By: Pastor_Chick

Now, even IF I could compromise and join the "corporate image protectors" of Adventism, I would NOT qualify to join the SDA Church because I do not subscribe to the Trinity doctrine. So, I am disqualified on TWO cardinal issues.

Ok - so it makes sense that you would not be a Seventh-day Adventist given that you deny the triune Godhead. You would not expect SDA tithe dollars to pay you to teach SDAs that the Holy Spirit is not the "Third person of the Godhead" or that Christ is not from "eternity past" God the Son.

[...]

[...]

in Christ,

Bob

And, it further makes sense that I would be a "Creation Seventh Day Adventist" for the various reasons you have stated, along with other reasons. The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists makes no exclusive claim to the word "Adventist." Since you accept what Caesar says about it, that fact is documented.

Now, because of the imperialistic nature of the most recent legal department of the GC, there is an attempt afoot to overcome the presumption that "Adventist" represents a "family of churches" and not exclusively the Seventh-day Adventist Church organization.

See: http://inquisitionnews.amplify.com/2011/...k-of-the-beast/

[ClubV12]

I do recall a statement by EGW about sincere folks being sincerely mistaken.

Not a reflection on your beliefs Chick. What I take from that EGW quote is that sincerity alone is not enough to establish belief, doctrine, ideas. We need a solid foundation based on reason, logic, bible study, being led of the Holy Spirit. We need to know the truth for ourselves. When it comes to sincerity, I don't even trust myself! My prayer is that God will save me from myself in terms of a strong delusion coming upon me. That concept does make me hesitate and rethink my own position on various points of contention I come across in my own life.

Am I really submitting to Gods will? What IS Gods will? Am I operating under a sincere delusion because I have not truly yielded my own feelings on the matter?

Again, no reflection on Pastor Chick, just something I'm concerned with in my own life.

[Pastor_Chick]

Originally Posted By: Pastor_Chick

So, what I am understanding is that since I have a mandate from God to identify myself as "Creation Seventh Day Adventist," and this is a "sincerely held belief" as discovered and admitted by the United States District Court and the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals, "[Your] position on law and doctrine is that [you] cannot use the power of the state [to] dictate what believe.

But, I further understand that you CAN have me jailed and monetarily sanctioned for my "sincerely held belief."

You may believe you have had a direct vision from God of a sign with the name "Creation Seventh-day Adventist Church" written on it and directing you to illegally co-opt the SDA name even though you admit that you are not Adventist in doctrine when it comes to the Triune Godhead. (John says to "test the spirits" in 1John 4).

[...]

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

I perceive the spirit coming to me now. Your "judgment" is formed from using your "28 Fundamental Beliefs" as a creed to define what a "Seventh-day Adventist" believer is.

Let us be consistent in the application of Scripture. "And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

It is "patently" a violation of the Bible, SOP, and SDA pioneer doctrine to forbid a believer use of the name God gave to His people. To employ the "sword of Caesar" to do so is an abomination before the Almighty.

[Pastor_Chick]

I do recall a statement by EGW about sincere folks being sincerely mistaken.

Not a reflection on your beliefs Chick. What I take from that EGW quote is that sincerity alone is not enough to establish belief, doctrine, ideas. We need a solid foundation based on reason, logic, bible study, being led of the Holy Spirit. We need to know the truth for ourselves. When it comes to sincerity, I don't even trust myself! My prayer is that God will save me from myself in terms of a strong delusion coming upon me. That concept does make me hesitate and rethink my own position on various points of contention I come across in my own life.

Am I really submitting to Gods will? What IS Gods will? Am I operating under a sincere delusion because I have not truly yielded my own feelings on the matter?

Again, no reflection on Pastor Chick, just something I'm concerned with in my own life.

Club,

Thank you for your cautions. Thank you also for the disclaimers, though they fall a bit short in that there is a subtle implication that your thoughts ARE directed at me.

I am being judged in the "judgment of the living" by YAHSHUA, the Messiah. The judgments of men do not have power over me.

Now, for the record, I commune with my Father and His Son. I am a special messenger commissioned by Christ Himself in 1988. I "know of whom I have believed." I have seen the glory of YAHWEH, and heard His audible voice in my ears. I know the Spirit of which I am mandated. I "do always those things that please [my Father]."

Now, having made my testimony clear, the Pharisees said to the Prince of Glory, "You ARE NOT the Messiah. You blaspheme by calling yourself God." (and even more). Satan told the Savior in the wilderness, "You ARE the fallen angel." He "endured such contradiction of sinners against himself." (Heb. 12:3)

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (John 5:22, 23) [Take note that the Holy Spirit is not in the equation.]

I live in a continuous atmosphere of self-examination. That is the only way to be fitted for translation.

[Pastor_Chick]

I will make an offer to pay them off in full and show you what remedy to take to settle your problems with them. Just contact me in the private section. This is what I do for a living. Don't mess with the truth!

Dr. Rich,

You must be a generous soul at heart. I perceive you to be a bit "rough on the edges," but I cannot be harsh with you.

Now, I do not know which is more offensive;

1) Having my intelligence insulted, along with my whole church family, or

2) Being regarded a heretic and false prophet.

I cannot allow any of man's judgments to influence my obedience to the Father and His Son.

If you are suggesting that you can pay the GC the $68,000 that they are demanding, then I have a wonderful idea.

You may donate said amount to CSDARPU in Uganda, and every penny will be spent to erect a health clinic and private Christian school for street kids and orphans.

http://adventistry.to/CSDARPU/

Dr. Rich, you do not understand. I have obeyed my Father in every detail. There is NO remedy other than what the God Heaven has ordained.

In case you think the CSDA Church or any of its operations are 501©3, I will let you know that we stand against such classifications for churches.

Yes, I would enjoy having the option of returning to my country and worshiping in the sanctuary with my beloved church family again, but you cannot make it happen.

I am resigned to living out my days in exile, while fulfilling the divine commission, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." This is the work that YAHWEH has called me to.

Thank you for your generosity.

[ClubV12]

Pastor Chick, my sincerity comments truly are not directed at you. Your earlier comment about sincerity is what triggered my recall of the EGW statement on that issue. For me, it is indeed deeply personal, being new to the Seventh Day Adventist faith. I must exercise great caution as I continue to form my own personal "take" on varied christian issues. I try to put aside the emotional and build upon reason.

[Pastor_Chick]

Pastor Chick, my sincerity comments truly are not directed at you. Your earlier comment about sincerity is what triggered my recall of the EGW statement on that issue. For me, it is indeed deeply personal, being new to the Seventh Day Adventist faith. I must exercise great caution as I continue to form my own personal "take" on varied christian issues. I try to put aside the emotional and build upon reason.

Club,

Thank you. AND, I am not opposed to being "corrected" by anyone who has my best interest at heart. It does not matter if they are "new to the faith," "veterans of the faith," "agnostic," or "atheist." In my 23 years of ministry, I have received correction from young children.

The "judgment of men" I do not receive. The Father has given all judgment to the Son, and He is going through the books right now, making final investigative judgment before His soon return.

Let us be ready to meet Him in peace.

------------------

N. B. My use of the word "sincerely held belief" is a "legal term" that I was applying in my post to Bob.

[BobRyan]

Bob,

I perceive the spirit coming to me now. Your "judgment" is formed from using your "28 Fundamental Beliefs" as a creed to define what a "Seventh-day Adventist" believer is.

[Naraiel]

Dr. Rich,

Thanks for your reply, I noticed you don't consider Ellen White's testimonies seriously enough, therefore if you are so generous to allow me explaining the same principles with the Word of the Living God, this can place us under the same page.

Please forgive the extension of this Bible study, but it is for the sake of those who wants to follow Christ humbly where ever He is.

-------------------------------------------------

The Second Angel’s Message

“And there followed another angel, saying, ‘Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.’”(Rev 14:8)

This second message is the shortest of the three. It makes only a simple declaration, that “Babylon is fallen,” and gives the reason why: “because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

In order to understand this, of course, we need to define the symbols based upon the meanings Scripture gives to the words, particularly the words “Babylon,” “fallen” and “fornication.”

The first mention of Babylon in Scripture is in Genesis 10, where it is translated as Babel (it is the same word in Hebrew). We read, “And the beginning of [Nimrod’s] kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.” (Gen 10:10)

Nimrod was one of the first great apostates after the global Flood. He was the first in the recovering world to establish a “kingdom” in which a human was the head of the people under him. He called his kingdom “Babel” which, although it means “Confusion” in Hebrew, meant “Gate of God” in Chaldean, which would later become the language of Shinar. We may read some of the characteristics of this kingdom, called “Gate of God” by its citizens:

“And [the residents of Shinar] said one to another, ‘Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly.’ And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. And they said, ‘Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto Heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.’

“And Almighty came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And Almighty said, ‘Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language, and this they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.’

“So Almighty scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth, and they left off to build the city; therefore is the name of it called Babel; because Almighty did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did Almighty scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.” (Gen 11:3-9)

Before the fall of the Tower of Babel, humanity had one language, and the name “Babel” was not given to the city until after this fall.

What we find is a city whose residents wished to reach the place of God himself, putting themselves where He is in order to “make a name” for themselves and protect their dwelling-place, that they should not be “scattered.”

The defining characteristic here is pride, for in the attempt to reach Heaven by means of a tower we see the ambition of Lucifer, who once said, “I will ascend into Heaven; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.” (Isa 14:13a, 14)

What we find the Second Angel describing in Revelation is a people who have the same characteristics: for pride’s sake they seek to appropriate for themselves the rightful place of the Creator, and they do so in order to protect themselves from the loss of their identity or their name. They consider themselves to be the “Gate of God,” or a blessed and wise people, but the name Almighty gives them is “Confusion.”

Although the later kingdom of Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar and his descendants have much to do with the history of Israel, we read from John’s vision that we must truly go back to this first incarnation of Babel in order to obtain the characteristics for the last.

The Revelator tells us of these confused ones of the last days, “her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” (Rev 18:5).

Note: Later on I will specify about this with the Word of God.

But it should be noted for now that even during the later history of the city, during the Israelite kingdom, the prophets continued to point out that it had the same character as in its earliest days: “‘Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and though she should fortify the height of her strength, yet from me shall spoilers come unto her,’ saith Almighty.” (Jer 51:53)

The first and defining characteristic of Babylon has always been this pride, this reaching-after the Heavens for unjust reasons. The citizens do not wish to reach Heaven in order to worship the Creator, but in order to secure their own interests.

What does it mean that Babylon has fallen?

We read of the “fall” of cities in the Scriptures: “Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed; forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country, for her judgment reacheth unto Heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies.” (Jer 51:8, 9)

The parallels should be too plain to miss, but we shall see that this is a general principle, not specific to any one city. When speaking of the fall of Jerusalem, even the blessed capital, the same prophet said, “He that abideth in this city shall die by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence; but he that goeth out, and falleth to the Chaldeans that besiege you, he shall live, and his life shall be unto him for a prey.” (Jer 21:9)

In Revelation we are told that this is precisely the instruction of Heaven for the people of the last days:

“And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues; for her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.” (Rev 18:4, 5)

When a city falls, it is time to leave. But note this subtle point: people are never told to leave Babylon. Daniel, the Hebrew captive, was given great authority in the city of Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar and his successors. (Dan 2:46-48) Jeremiah actually told the fleeing Hebrews to seek refuge in the pagan city, to escape the fall of Jerusalem. (Jer 21:9 as quoted above)

No one is to leave a city (or a religious organization, which is its spiritual parallel – Isa 52:1, Heb 12:22) simply because it incorporates error into its worship or teachings.

The Scripture is plain in its application of this principle: When a city has incorporated pagan concepts into its rituals, it is time for a return to righteousness, but no command is given to depart. When a city falls, however, there is a clear choice given: remain within its walls and perish, or flee and be spared the just sentence of Divine wrath.

From Jeremiah’s words we see that even if the holiest of cities should enter a Babylonian state and then fall, it is to be abandoned by those who would remain in favor with Almighty.

Finally, now that we have defined Babylon and seen briefly how it applies to religious systems, and now that we have seen what the response of the faithful must be to the declaration that such systems have “fallen,” we must consider how it is that Babylon falls.

The Angel declares that Babylon is fallen “because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

Fornication is defined as inappropriate intimate relations. For humans this covers such concepts as pre-marital sexual contact, homosexuality and adultery, among others.

How is it that a city, or a religious system, can commit intimate acts of an inappropriate nature?

We read, “Thou [Jerusalem] hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms. Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.” (Ezek 16:25, 26)

“And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that Almighty will visit Tyre; and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.” (Isa 23:16) “‘And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty, for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee,’ saith Adonai Almighty. ‘But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.’” (Ezek 16:14, 15)

From these and other passages, we see that if a nation has committed fornication, specifically adulterous acts with the “kings of the earth,” it has gone after the ways of the nations around it, uniting with them in worship and methods. It has joined with the “world,” and forsaken the way of its first Husband, which Almighty considers to be Himself in relation to His people. (Jer 31:32)

Incorporating the symbols, we see that although the second Angel’s message is brief, it means much, as much as that which was borne by its predecessor: A nation has become corrupted through pagan errors, and in this state has learned the ways of the world. In uniting with the world and taking on its practices, it has “fallen,” and from this accursed system those who wish to be faithful to the Creator, continuing in what they have gained under the First Angel, must flee.

From the words of the prophets, we understand that no nation, no religious system, is immune to this state if it does not protect itself from worldliness and pagan deceptions.

We see in the Second Angel’s message the reason why the Apostolic Church was drawn out of Judaism, because those who had the headship of the Jewish religion committed to their trust betrayed the Almighty by saying, “We have no king but Caesar,” (John 19:15) and uniting with the Roman civil law to execute the Messiah.

We see in the Second Angel’s message the reason why the Reformation drew faithful Christians out of the Roman Catholic system, which had turned to pagan errors and, in this state united with the secular authority of soldiers and armies in order to secure the “name” and power of the papacy.

We see in the Second Angel’s message the reason why the Great Awakening (which led up to the Seventh-day Adventist movement) drew men out of Sunday-keeping Protestantism, which was still steeped in Romanist doctrines, and which would soon unite with the United States civil government in the 19th century in an attempt to enforce a “Sunday law” that would compel the conscience of Christians, and ultimately persecute the Messiah in the person of His saints.

We now see in the Second Angel’s message the reason why the SDA Faithful Remnant Church has been called out of Seventh-day Adventism, for the latter body has returned to pagan errors and learned the ways of the world. In such a state, it has united with the United States civil government in an attempt to enforce a “Trademark law” that would compel the conscience of Christians, and ultimately persecute the Messiah in the person of His saints. The names may have changed, but the principles of Heaven are eternal.

Those who obey the Second Angel will flee from any system that, while teaching pagan errors, will take the position of the world: that a religion must be protected or promoted by the authority of the “kings of the earth,” (the spiritual descendants of Nimrod)

that force is an acceptable alternative to evangelism in securing its “name” before Heaven. This was the error of the first incarnation of Babylon, and this is why the final Babylon has fallen in the last days.

The Fourth Angel of Rev 18

“And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, ‘Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

"For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication; and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.’ “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, ‘Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.’” (Rev 18:1-5)

This angel is the fourth with a message for mankind (following the three in Revelation 14) and is therefore often referenced simply as “the fourth angel.” We find that its message is largely a repeat of the second Gospel angel, declaring the fall of Babylon, an end to the system of worldly confusion of policies, and preparing the earth for a calling-out message from Heaven.

We may note from the history of religious reform that each of the Three Angels’ messages had particular significance for the era just before a major dissention from the established ecclesiastical order.

When the Apostles were calling the Hebrews out of nationalistic Judaism and into the eternal kingdom that “shall stand for ever,” (Dan 2:44) they pointed out no doctrinal errors that would identify the Jewish religion as “Babylon” in the sense that it is now understood, but merely told them to worship the Creator, who had appointed His Son as Heir and Judge. (Acts 2:36)

When Martin Luther finally separated from the Roman system, he not only called it “Babylon,” but also went so far as to identify the papal office as that of the antichrist. This is the Second Angel’s message in verity. Under the reformers, however, little was spoken of the Mark of the Beast. Some, such as Martin Luther, even had difficulty accepting books such as Hebrews and Revelation, which are vital for understanding last day events.

It was not until the “Great Awakening” of the 1800s, and the Seventh-day Adventist movement that followed, that the Third Angel lent its significance to present truth, warning believers against unions of civil and church power, that was predicted to be the final enemy of Almighty’s people on earth.

The Third Angel produced a unifying message that resulted in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Historically, Adventists have seen the Revelation 18 message as a call going forth once again to Sunday keeping Churches as a last-ditch effort to save them from error before the time of Judgment. While it is true that the Fourth Angel repeats the warning of the Second Angel in Revelation 14:8, the borders of Babylon have also increased since the time when the Three Angels’ Message was originally given in the 1800s.

It is interesting to note that the Woman of Revelation 18 is also accused of being a Widow, as implied by her denial of the designation in Revelation 18:7. This applies to her the fourth of four types of women that the High Priest is explicitly forbidden to marry.

The Bride of Christ must be a pure Virgin. (2Cor 11:2) In the Levitical type that Christ fulfills, the High Priest must marry a young woman who has never known a man. In fact, there are four types of women that the High Priest can never marry: “A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.” (Lev 21:14)

The mainstream SDA Church, her fruits, can be shown as fulfilling at least three of these four forbidden types!

1. A Divorced Woman – In setting aside the protection and principles of Christ, the rightful Husband, nominal Adventism has accomplished a separation between itself and the divine Bridegroom. Worse, a “remarriage” has been revealed that parallels the Jewish dignitaries saying, “We have no king but Caesar.” (John 19:15) Although the Hebrews were covenant-bound not to use the arm of flesh to accomplish the requirements of divine law, they nevertheless yielded to political and personal greed and did what they felt was necessary to silence opposition. This satanic action has been fulfilled in these last evil times by a Church that once claimed (and still claims in doctrine) to be Christ’s turning aside from His doctrine of enduring wrongs and grasping a forbidden sword to do what they feel is necessary to carry out their worldly policies.

2) Profane Woman– In accepting pagan errors, and incorporating worldly policy into the way its doctrines and organizations are run, (in direct and extraordinarily bold rejections of the prophets’ testimonies) the nominal Church has cast off most if not all of its sacred character, leaving only that which is common (i.e., profane) in its place.

3) An Harlot Woman– In seeking political and civil support from a source not only distinct from Christ, but a nation destined to facilitate His avowed enemy in the prophecies, (i.e., the Second Beast) the mainstream Seventh-day Adventist Church has done just as Israel of old:

“Almighty said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, ‘Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? She is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.’” (Jeremiah 3:6)

The Bible states very clearly that Christ will only (can only) be joined to a Church that has never united with the world for policy or protection. It would be contrary to divine Law for Him to unite Himself with a backslidden people, or even a people who had repented if, in their backslidden state, they had united with a second source of power. (Deu 24:1-4) While the individuals may be saved out of such a fallen organization, that organization itself has made itself unfit for matrimony with the divine High Priest.

-------------

We see the very terms – the precise language – used in the Scriptures to describe Babylon fallen applied to the potential state of mainstream Adventism by one accepted within Adventism itself as a prophetess.

Some may object to this characterization based upon the use of the term “sister to fallen Babylon;” but the Scripture states that not only will sisters receive the same judgment for the same actions, but the younger sister, who should have learned from the example of her elder, will receive a greater penalty for her apostasy. (Ezek 23:1-35) Note in particular verses 31 and 32, “Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thine hand. Thus saith Adonai Almighty, ‘Thou shalt drink of thy sister’s cup deep and large; thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much.”

Reading about the “cup of judgment” that the Mother of Harlots drinks in Revelation 17:19, the connection cannot possibly be missed.

With this in mind, a quick review of the history of the Adventist movement, particularly following the death of Ellen White, will reveal beyond the possibility of controversy that the actions, which would have prevented such a transformation, were not accomplished!

If, therefore, the voice speaking to us from early Adventism can be trusted at all, and the testimony borne by Ellen White was indeed accurate, then there can be no other conclusion reached than this: because the conditions placed upon the continued purity of the Adventist Church were not met, there arose the need for this final reform, the Fourth Angel’s Message.

But what of the “Sabbath” issue?

While it would be obvious in the case of a Sunday-keeping union with the government to produce a Sunday Law, the Scriptures teach us that it is as much a violation of the Sabbath to profane the character of Christ in the manner it is being done as it is to labor or conduct business on the seventh day of the week.

We read Paul’s long and beautiful commentary on the Sabbath in Hebrews 4. Speaking to those who already knew about the letter of the fourth commandment, Paul explains that the truth behind the Sabbath is a spiritual one.

It is ceasing from one’s own labors; it is entering into the “rest” that Almighty has provided through His Son, and not doing our own works, especially when it affects “the people of God,” because the “rest,” (sabbatismos) is for them and them specifically. (Heb 4:9)

In order for the General Conference to take professed Christians to court and remain Sabbath-keepers (i.e., those who have ceased from their own works) they would have to claim that they have direct orders from Yahshua Himself to use the United States civil government to confiscate the property and freedom of others who are all claiming to serve Him, albeit in a way different from the Conference itself.

It would be hard indeed to imagine the Savior revealed in the New Testament inspiring men to write such claims and accusations as are found in the lawsuit complaints filed by the Conference.

"These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth [destroy your life]you will think that he doeth God service.And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me."[/i] Jhon 16: 1-3

The question we must ask ourselves is if our mental "image" of the Almighty is the same one as the one described in His Word, for we will be judge by God's word, and not by human or logic reasoning alone.

-----------------

Blessings,

[skyblue888]

In the Desire of Ages we read that by the time Jesus was born "the people whom God called to be the pillar and ground of the truth had become the representatives of Satan. They were doing the work that he desired them to do, taking a course to misrepresent the character of God, and cause the world to look upon Him as a tyrant... The ordinances which God Himself had appointed were made the means of blinding the mind and hardening the heart. God could do no more for man through these channels. The whole system must be swept away." p.36.

You would expect that thirty some years later, when Jesus began

His ministry, He would do just that, sweep the whole system away. Instead, for three and half years we find Him speaking to the hearts of men by a life of mercy and self-sacrifice. (D.A.217, bottom of page)

John the Baptist, like the prophet Elijah, in whose spirit

and power he had come to Israel, looked for the Lord to

reveal Himself as a God that answereth by fire. (D.A.215)

It would seem that even the greatest of the prophets were mistaken as to the character of Christ's mission.

Jesus had not come to sweep away the whole system and He did not ask for His name to be removed from the temple's book of record even though He knew that those who had been called to be His representatives were planning His murder! After His resurrection, He ascended up on High to plead the merits of His sacrifice in behalf of all men and He poured out the Holy Spirit upon His disciples and sent them with a message to His murderers: the offer of mercy, the offer of pardon for having crucified the Lord of glory. See C.O.L.308.

The crucifixion of Christ was the "omega" of the Jew's apostasy and yet following this apostasy the Lord sent to them the offer of pardon which shows that the Lord's care and labor for apostate Israel had not lessened but increased. See C.O.L.218.

But the Jewish leaders were exasperated by such an offer of

mercy and they turned upon the bearers of the message. See C.O.L.308. There was a great persecution and the disciples

were forced to turn to the Gentiles. Thus the Jewish Church sealed her rejection fo God's mercy. But notice that at no time did Jesus or the disciples ask for their names to be removed from the record books of the Jewish church in spite of her apostasy. They were cast out!

There will always be those who go ahead of the Lord feeling it is their duty to call people out of the professed church even before the last call of mercy to them has even begun.

The last call of mercy to the professed church of Christ will be proclaimed by men and women of God's own choosing. They will proclaim the last message of mercy to Modern Israel in demonstration of the Spirit and power of God, in latter rain

power, and this is what will enrage the nominal adventists and the bearers of the message will suffer persecution and these and their converts will be cast out of the church and thus will be forced to go to the world and the message will swell into the loud cry. Modern Israel will be left behind but not until she has rejected that last call.

For those who are interested, you may want to read THAT WHICH HAS BEEN WILL BE from my website at www.hidden-treasures.ca

Your comments would be appreciated.

sky

*We are living in the time of the second call of the parable of Matt.22, the last call to the professed church of Christ, after the crucifixion of the messages that had been entrusted to us as a people, which crucifixion took place between 1955 and 1957 when the G.C. leaders met with representatives of the churches that constitute Babylon to discuss whether we could be recognized as members of the body of Christ by them. The pillars of our faith were repudiated in secret meetings and the result was that we could now be reckoned among those churches. This was the crucifixion between the first and second call of the parable of Matt.22. When Jesus spoke this parable He was looking down the ages with His eyes fixed upon our time. This parable was spoken more for us than for the Jews.

This is the present truth.

[Scion]

Hi Bob,

I have some issues with some of the things being said here, for example:

Quote:

The name "Seventh-day Adventist" came up within the Seventh-day Adventist church (not the "Creation Seventh-day Adventist" church) and was endorsed by messages given to Ellen White.

The name "Creation Seventh-day Adventist" was never voted and is merely a co-opting of that history based on personal claims to visions and dreams.

I don't think that this was the point being made. The point is not whether or not the SDA Church considers the name "Creation Seventh Day Adventist" to be valid or not (voted on, etc.) but whether or not they have the authority to seek to control the beliefs of others that it is valid. Now, if I gather what you have said correctly (and it's difficult to keep up with all the details of some posters) you seem to be of the position that people can believe whatever they want, but if they ever try to ACT on that belief, they are "on their own." I don't see how this can be a belief based on religious tolerance and liberty! A person can believe what they want, but Heaven forbid they actually act as if that belief were real... Heaven forbid they actually try to live their faith. Then, if that faith is not our own, we are justified in standing by while they are thrown to the lions. That sounds a lot like what Saul did during Stephen's stoning in Acts. I'm not comfortable with that.

Of course, some may come up with the slippery-slope argument of "What happens if that person's beliefs tell them it is okay to murder?" Then we have an issue of criminal law, not civil law, which is what appears to be at the heart of this discussion. So I think the point here is being missed.

Quote:

Our church manual states that rejection of the Cardinal doctrines of our denomination is the first cause for church discipline.

Granted, granted... but my reading of the Bible tells me that Church discipline ends with disfellowship. I have read documents and seen cases where the justification for the violation of 1Cor 6 (Dare not take a brother to court) is to disfellowship them (so that they are no longer "brethren") and then petition the civil law to deal with them on behalf of the Church. If you are familiar with the witch trials that took place in the Americas a few hundred years ago, this is precisely the same paradigm. The Church would deliver up the "witches" to the authorities after accusing them, and then pray (hypocritically) that they state would be merciful to them, knowing full well that the stake and the axe were the inevitable consequences of their actions.

The Church could, thereafter, legitimately say, "We never spilled a drop of blood. It was the law that did it." And isn't that what's being said today? "Believe what you want, but if you cross this creed, you're in trouble... and you'll be in trouble with the LAW, not with the Church that creates, endorses, supports, and actively pushes for the enforcement of, that law. It was a shameful cop-out then, and it looks the same to me today.

Quote:

Ellen White strongly endorsed the idea of a fundamental set of beliefs that are not negotiable that will stand the test of time.

That's true... but a 28th belief was just added. Clearly, what that set of beliefs is is not set in stone (so to speak) and should NEVER be used as a way of determining heretics, or those who deserve the sword of a government that I think most of us would agree is the Second Beast of Revelation.