1888 One more time

[skyblue888]

For me, it is not elusive NOW! I continue to grow in understanding of it daily, it has many facets, it is a thing of beauty.

But I would have to say, it is in fact very elusive, it was for me. I read the texts, read some books, looked up plenty of references, it seemed so close, so simple, yet, I couldn't quite grasp it. It's like having something on the tip of your tongue, or finding the actual "end of the rainbow". I actually DID find the end of the rainbow, ONCE, in Hawaii, where rainbows are very very common. The "end" was in my backyard, right there, I could actually see it! That was an interesting moment, by the way.

The past couple of WEEKS I've been really focused on finding the meaning of Righteouness by faith, praying God would help me understand, it was SO close. And yet, so far away. In my case I had to "give up". Give up all my preconceived ideas of what being a christian was all about. Give up the "law". Give up all the old ideas I had. I wasn't even studying when it came to me, basically, I had given up. Yet, it was in the back of mind constantly. And then, it happened, watching the trees, Sabbath evening, enjoying nature and contemplating the love of God. That still small voice, not from intense bible study, more books, more EGW writings, just the trees and the breeze.

My latest realization is that Righteouness by faith is NOT a "one time event". Not even "daily", but moment by moment as I rejoice in a new understanding of the "law". The joy in doing God's will, desiring to be just like Him. It has been very profound. It's NOT some "mystical thing" some new spirituallity, I've come to see it as "christainity 101", and am amazed I did not understood it until recently. It's as simple as ABC!

All right, ClubV12, it is simple as ABC but what is it? Tell us what you have found. Tell us what righteousness by faith is, not what you think it is but what God says.

Thanks,

sky

[skyblue888]

Cheddar, you said, "the biggest hurdle to understanding righteousness by faith is how we see the law." I coudn't agree more. I agree with just about everything you said except that you forgot something. If the Isrealites, at Sinai, had looked to Christ, trusting in the merits of a Saviour to come for their salvation, the 10 commandments, spoken by Him, would have been promises to them, promises of their own fulfillment, for the words of God's mouth are Spirit and they are life. "The Words that I SPEAK unto you, they are Spirit and they are life." John 6:63.

But the Isrealites were afraid of the Voice that would have imparted life to them, even the life of the Infinite One by which the commandment was to be fulfilled or the promise realized. They asked that Moses speak to them instead. (Exodus 20:18,19; Romans 7:10)

I agree with you that the law of ten commandments engraved on stones or written with ink can only be a "ministration of condemnation and death." "The letter kills." 2 Cor.3:6,7,9. Yes, the letter of the law convinces of sin and shows the need of a Saviour. (Rom.5:20;7:7)

So the letter of the law cannot impart life. It is as cold as the stones it is engraved upon or as dry as the paper it is written upon. It is without dew or rain, without the Holy Spirit.

However, as the believing, repenting sinner comes to God resting (trusting wholly, relying solely) in the merits of Christ's infinite sacrifice for his acceptance with God, he hears a Voice speaking to him through the oracles of God's law and says to the Lord, "Be it done unto me as You have spoken," and that law from God's mouth imparts power, it begets life, even a new life in Christ Christ. In Acts 7:38 the apostle Paul speaks of the law of God's mouth as "living oracles." Thus we read, "All the words of My mouth are with righteousness." Prov.8:8. "The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness." Isaiah 45:23.

And "Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God," and "The life of God in the soul is man's only hope." Mount of Blessing, p.18; Ministry of Healing, p.115.

The life which is thus received is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. (Matt.4:4)

So, in a nutshell, the 1888 message is: To you who believe that the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in your behalf, it is written, "Receive, I pray thee, the law from His mouth." Job 22:22.

Those who receive the law of ten commandments from God's mouth exclaim, "The law of Your mouth is better to me than thousands of gold and silver." Psalm 119:72. "I will never forget Your commandments, for by them You have given me life." Psalm 119:93. New King James.

As we rely solely upon the merits of Christ for our acceptance with God and receive the law of ten commandments from His mouth, these commandments become promises, "exceedingly great and precious promises by which we become partakers of the divine nature." 2 Peter 1:4.

And now, please let me conclude with two beautiful statements from the pen of inspiration:

"The sinner must ever look toward Calvary, and with the simple faith of a little child, he must rest in the merits of Christ, accepting His righteousness, and believing in His mercy." Evangelism, p.185.

"That law of ten precepts of the greatest love that can be presented to man is the Voice of God from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise. There is not a negative in that law, although it may appear thus." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.1, p.1105

Back to you Cheddar.

sky :)

[cheddar]

So what you’re saying is that God gives us grace so that we can go back to the old covenant and keep the 10 commandments? I think you’re mistaken. The expression of the law in the new covenant is God’s agape love. Love isn’t something that I can do or keep; it’s something that God does to us. Any trained monkey can keep a bunch of rules and regulations but only someone who exercises faith in Jesus Christ can have God’s agape love. Jesus said that love is the fulfillment of the law. Matt 22

And to all those Paul haters out there who think that Jesus gave a different gospel than Paul, you people are delusional. Jesus and Paul are in complete harmony. Jesus talked about faith just as much as Paul did. There were only a couple of times that he talked about commandment keeping and that was because the people he was dealing with couldn’t understand anything else. Every miracle that Jesus performed required that the recipient have at least a little faith. He actually gave examples of when it was ok to break the law. Matt 12 Why would anyone say that if they were ‘all about the law’?

Paul was one of the greatest Christians who ever lived. Almost everything that Jones and Waggoner were saying was the same thing that Paul said 2000 years ago. When Judas was dropped from the twelve, the disciple chose Matthias as his replacement. Jesus chose Paul as his replacement. The only reason people hate Paul is because they love the law and Paul was good at putting people like that in their place. Paul is still king dingaling in my book.

[ClubV12]

All I can say about it is,,, my only hope is to claim His righteouness, that of Jesus Christ. All my good works mean nothing and all my bad works mean nothing. The good will not get me into heaven and the bad won't keep me out. The ONLY hope is His righteousness, when all else is stripped away, it's the only thing that still remains. In good times, I want to "work" for Him, out of gratitude and love. But life is not always good times. Sometimes, it is very dark indeed and deeply troubling, I feel like I'm being pulled away from Christ, the battle is close at hand. Desperation sets in, what can I do? I fall on my knees and call on Christ, believe His grace is sufficient, His righteousness enough. But still, there is doubt, I cry out, Lord, help though my unbelief. His grace is all I have, His righteousness my only hope. And that faith, tiny as a mustard seed, begin's to take root, in Him. THIS is righteousness by faith.

In good times, like I was having today. Fellowshiping with some believers, having a wonderful time. Then, from out of nowhere, an unwelcome thought. I immediatly asked for Jesus to cover me with His righteousness. I didn't ask to be forgiven, all though that would have been appropriate,,, I guess. But no, my FIRST thought, was Jesus cover me with your righteouness, I need you right NOW Lord. In that moment, THIS was righteousness by faith.

This is such a wonderful message, I can't thank God enough for showing me this simple truth. A truth I struggled so hard to work out with "book learning". Maybe that will be the way the Lord reaches and teaches some of you on this point? But for me, I had to be driven to my knees and come to a state of complete failure in my personal life to see it. This simple truth, so powerful and so much peace from the Wonderful Counselor.

[Dr. Rich]

How sad! Not much hope there my friend! God gave each of us a choice to obey or not to obey. Seeking righteousness is good, but being righteous is better. Just give up sinning!

[ClubV12]

Dr. Rich, you don't get it. Keeping the law from a spirit of fear or obligation because if you don't you will be damned is meaningless. Keeping the law springs from a heart of love. Love begats love. Understanding Jesus' love results in you truly wanting to keep the law in the right spirit, because you want to be like Him, to know Him better, closer. Righteouness by faith does not abandon the law, it establishes it, it clairifies it.

[Dr. Rich]

Club, You have no one to blame but yourself my friend! Keep studying and perhaps some day you to will understand where you went wrong. BTW--I have been in your shoes and fully know where you are right now. Yep, been there and done that! So you don't have to tell me that I don't get it! Adam and Eve clearly loved God but this 'love' did NOT keep them from eating from the tree of knowledge--did it?

David clearly loved God too, but this love didn't keep him from from MAKING THE CHOICE to mess up in a royal way. Same goes for Moses! You will find that each of them had a choice to make and they made the wrong choice--period! It had NOTHING to do with their love for God.

And I am sure Cain loved God too but please read what God told him in Gen. 4:7. "Sin is crouching at the door; and it's desire is for you, but YOU MUST MASTER IT." God NEVER said don't worry, you are righteous because I am righteous.

The lie you and the majority of people who call themselves 'Christian' have come to accept is the SAME lie the snake told Eve. There is absolutly no difference except it is now packaged in sweet talk from Paul.

Here is what I mean: God could have kept Satan out of the special garden just as He could have kept Satan's words by Paul out of the NT, but He didn't because ALL humans must make their OWN choice to obey or not. Yes, it is a test to see IF you will obey or not. Satan told Eve; "You surely shall NOT die! Why? Because God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be just like God, knowing good and evil." And perhaps Satan could have also said something like; "And besides, God LOVES you too much to kill you and He knows that you love Him, you will see what I mean. After all, God predestened you before He made you to be His children and has a plan all set to redeem you for your mistakes. Look, I know God personally and He is full of love and grace. There is NOTHING that you could ever do to separate you from the Love of God!"

The study you might try is to look at the difference between the early Adventists and then compare them with those after 1888. Before they were diligently studying and seeking the truth, but after 1888, A. T. Jones and others like him snuck in and established the false belief that one is saved by grace alone and that righteousness is only by faith.

Come on, be a REAL Adventist and choose to obey the commandments (all of them) and hold fast to the words of Jesus Christ! This is NOT a game!

[skyblue888]

All I can say about it is,,, my only hope is to claim His righteouness, that of Jesus Christ. All my good works mean nothing and all my bad works mean nothing. The good will not get me into heaven and the bad won't keep me out. The ONLY hope is His righteousness, when all else is stripped away, it's the only thing that still remains. In good times, I want to "work" for Him, out of gratitude and love. But life is not always good times. Sometimes, it is very dark indeed and deeply troubling, I feel like I'm being pulled away from Christ, the battle is close at hand. Desperation sets in, what can I do? I fall on my knees and call on Christ, believe His grace is sufficient, His righteousness enough. But still, there is doubt, I cry out, Lord, help though my unbelief. His grace is all I have, His righteousness my only hope. And that faith, tiny as a mustard seed, begin's to take root, in Him. THIS is righteousness by faith.

In good times, like I was having today. Fellowshiping with some believers, having a wonderful time. Then, from out of nowhere, an unwelcome thought. I immediatly asked for Jesus to cover me with His righteousness. I didn't ask to be forgiven, all though that would have been appropriate,,, I guess. But no, my FIRST thought, was Jesus cover me with your righteouness, I need you right NOW Lord. In that moment, THIS was righteousness by faith.

This is such a wonderful message, I can't thank God enough for showing me this simple truth. A truth I struggled so hard to work out with "book learning". Maybe that will be the way the Lord reaches and teaches some of you on this point? But for me, I had to be driven to my knees and come to a state of complete failure in my personal life to see it. This simple truth, so powerful and so much peace from the Wonderful Counselor.

ClubV12

____________________

Club, why are you ignoring my last posts? you seem to want to ignore that the focal point of 1888 was that none of us are entitled to Christ's righteousness unless we first accept His merits and believe it is our privilege to claim and do claim them. This is not a private opinion but the counsel of the Lord Himself through His humble servant. See T.M.93.

Notice again how Mrs. White speaks of "the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into the life. Clothed with the righteousness of Christ and not your own righteousness, you will not depend upon what you can do or what you will do," for "Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything." F.W.65,66,27.

Righteousness by faith means that it is obtained by faith in the merits of Christ, by appropriating His merits to ourselves.

"Many have a nominal faith in Christ but they know nothing of that vital dependence upon Him which appropriates the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." 1 S.M.389.

"The only way the sinner can attain to righteousnes is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ." F.W.101.

"The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

Will you not say Amen to this? Will you not acknowledge that this is the 1888 message according to God's idea of it?

sky

[ClubV12]

Herein lies the basic problem of the acceptance of righteouness by faith, the "law". As Dr. Rich points out, we MUST keep the law, we CAN keep the law, the law is everything, we are COMMANDED to keep it. Yeah, I have to agree, all that is true.

And because of this absolute belief, we cannot let go of the "guilt". It is guilt that stops us dead in our tracks from accepting righteousness by faith. The cry goes out we MUST keep the law. The other side responds, we are HELPLESS to keep the law. The two sides, a fierce struggle, both right.

We must make a decided effort to overcome sin, little sin and big sin. That unwelcome thought that just "pops" into your mind? You can actually take steps in your life to minimize that happening. Real, honest, hard "work" on your part, mixed with the love of Jesus and His power to overcome.

It's the balance between these two warring concepts that make the idea of righteousness by faith so "elusive". I want to overcome sin in my life, it is a goal that CAN be reached. Even if I attain the highest level of purtiy, of a sinless life, it will still fall short. In the end, only His grace will be enough, and I accept that, moment by moment. While at the same time, I earnestly do my part to be more like Him.

I'm NOT ignoring you Sky, I see that we are in perfect harmony on this issue. Different minds just express it in different ways.

[skyblue888]

I'm NOT ignoring you Sky, I see that we are in perfect harmony on this issue. Different minds just express it in different ways.

ClubV12

_____________________________

Club, glad you think so but it is not about expressing it in different ways but in receiving God's message the way He expressed it in 1888, the way He sent it and the way He said it.

You have said many times that your part is to claim the righteousness of Christ but in 1888 the Lord said that unless we look to Christ and accept His merits which it is our privilege to claim, we cannot obtain the righteousness of Christ which works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure.

You also said, "While at the same time, I earnestly do my part to be more like Him."

This is where the confusion lies for many. The 1888 message did not teach that. On the contrary. It taught that your part and my part is to lay right hold by faith of the merits of Christ and then we are fortified because then "Christ's righteousness imparts all the powers, all the grace, all the penitence, all the inclination, all the pardon of sins." F.W.24.

In other words the righteousness of Christ accomplishes everything, causing us to grow up into Christ.

His righteousness is obtained through living faith but what is living faith?

"Living faith is essential for our salvation, that we should lay hold upon the merits of the blood of the crucified and risen Saviour, on Christ our righteousness." F.W.64.

As we lay hold by faith of His merits, we lay hold on Him and He is made unto us wisdom and righteousness and redemption and sanctification. (1 Cor.1:30)

sky

In other words, this is righteousness by faith according to righteousness, according to God's own idea of it. In it there is not one thread of human devisings.

[ClubV12]

"While at the same time, I earnestly do my part to be more like Him."

This is where the confusion lies for many.

Yes, I totally agree! This IS indeed where the confusion lies for many and I think it is the fundamental reason the message is rejected by many.

I earnestly long to be more like my Saviour, because He loved me and I'm responding to that. There are many ways to express it. I'm only human, learning, stumbling along. Yet, in spite of my condition, I rest in the peace He offers, His righteouness. What is so thrilling to me is that I can have it, right now, by simply accepting it.

Looking back on my life, I can see now where He was drawing me to Himself, even when I didn't know it.

[cheddar]

The righteousness of Christ and God’s agape love (these two terms are synonymous) meet all the requirements of the law of God. They give victory over every sin and temptation, so there’s no problem on this end. It’s the other side of the equation where the problem lies, our side. Sometimes we have good days while others are bad, we go up and down. The righteousness never changes but our connection to that righteousness does. That connection is our faith. The bible says that some have strong faith while others have weak faith, but we all have at least some.

All of Satan’s attacks are attacks on our faith. He fills our mind with doubts and points out every fault we make all in an effort to tear down our faith. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10) Bible study is the best way to strengthen our faith. The Bible is filled with promises all just waiting to be claimed, even the ones in the old testament. I’m not against the old covenant as long as the law is seen as the standard of righteousness and not a means of acquiring righteousness, there’s a big difference.

When righteousness by faith is presented correctly it will sound like something you would teach to a 5 yr. old. Trust in God’s promises and keep your eyes on Jesus and everything will be ok.

[ClubV12]

Well put chedder, and Sky's take on it is also right on.

My experience was no matter HOW it was expressed, no how many quotes and books and studies I did on it, it just didn't sink in. Until I sat quietly, almost forgetting about it, worn out from contemplating it, and then it came to me. Just enough understanding to grasp it for what I needed at the time. I'm still growing in acceptance of it, still trying to leave behind the "doubts" that creep in from time to time, still trying to figure out how to express it.

[Gail]

And if Christ is dwelling in your hearts by faith, you will be rooted and grounded in love (Eph.3:17). Your desire will be to walk in His ways. God has promised to write His laws in your heart so it's not a matter of the checklist.

Let his love be established in your heart. That act alone will do much to establish you in the faith. Then when the Bible is read it will be like the joining of kindred spirits :)

[Dr. Rich]

Sky, please explain how you can be righteous without keeping all of the covenant (ten commandments) and practice right living (righteousness)? Since just believing a lie is a sin, then how can one just have faith without knowing and practicing the truth?

Now don't get me wrong, faith does play a part, but the more one learns the truth, the less one has faith. Jesus didn't need any faith because He KNEW the real truth! Arn't we suppose to be like Jesus?

It is like a child going into a dark room and flips the switch having faith that the light will come on. If the child does not know about how electricity works, then when the bulb burns out, the child will just keep flipping the switch. But someone with knowledge will check to see if it is plugged in or the bulb is burnt out, and fix it--because of faith? NO! Because he is practicing truth.

It is easy to keep all of the commandents! Nothing to it! So simple even a 5th grader could do it! One does not even have to think about it IF they have made the choice just to keep them. Period!

[miz3]

It is easy to keep all of the commandents! Nothing to it! So simple even a 5th grader could do it! One does not even have to think about it IF they have made the choice just to keep them. Period!

So, Dr. Rich, do you keep all the commandments perfectly?

[Parade Orange]

JESUS is the only one who kept HIS FATHERS Commandments!

not any fifth grader or a doctor

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Dr.Rich

It is easy to keep all of the commandents! Nothing to it! So simple even a 5th grader could do it! One does not even have to think about it IF they have made the choice just to keep them. Period!

So, Dr. Rich, do you keep all the commandments perfectly?

No one is living Christ's life. Keep in mind He kept the spirit of the law. He thought not, planned, lived not for Himself.

The letter of the law is what you read in stone, but the law is spiritual. Ten brief rules doesn't cover everything. So Christ expanded the law. See Matt chapter 5 for example:

21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.

27 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person.

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you....

Now here's the conclusion:

48 Be perfect, therefore, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[skyblue888]

Sonny said, "No one here is living Christ's life."

It is blasmphemy to make such a statement as that because only God knows who are His, who are living the life of Christ, whether there are some here who do or don't

"Satan has claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts... When a soul receives Christ, he receives power to live the life of Christ... The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law." Christ's Object Lessons, p.314,315.

So to say that it is impossible to live the life of Christ is a lie, Satan's great lie.

sky

[miz3]

It is easy to keep all of the commandents! Nothing to it! So simple even a 5th grader could do it! One does not even have to think about it IF they have made the choice just to keep them. Period!

The question still awaits an answer from Dr. Rich!

So, Dr. Rich, do you keep all the commandments perfectly?

[Sonny]

It is blasmphemy to make such a statement as that because only God knows who are His, who are living the life of Christ, whether there are some here who do or don't...

The Bible says no one is measuring up, Sky! Is the Bible blasphemous now?

Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one 22....There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished [i.e., before the cross where God legally forgave sin]-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

[Guest]

How sad! Not much hope there my friend! God gave each of us a choice to obey or not to obey. Seeking righteousness is good, but being righteous is better. Just give up sinning!

You say that as if you had quit sinning a long time ago.

If it's that easy then you have no excuse for having not quit yet, while you flippantly tell others to. Or are you saying you have quit sinning? Is that what you are saying?

I think if you are honest with yourself here, then you will realize that YOUR gospel doesn't stand up under scrutiny. Come back and tell us to "just quit sinning" AFTER you have done it.

Until then all you are is a loud noise.

[skyblue888]

Sonny, there is not one righteous. That is the truth. Only God is righteous. Of ourselves we are only sinners. But by the grace of God which we acquire through faith in Christ's merits, we become righteous, righteous in Christ. Rom. 3:25; 1 Cor.1:30; 2 Cor.5:21. In ourselves we are sinners but in Christ we are righteous. But the believer in Christ never declares himself righteous. On the contrary, like Paul, he always confesses himself to be the chief of sinners, because he knows that without Christ he is capable of the worse sins.

sky

[Parade Orange]

DR RICH doesnt have the FRUITS Of THE SPIRIT from what i see here going by his posts

of course that is my opinion and dont know the man

but i see a conduct

i see how he approaches new people here

i see accusing and flipancy

i see evil

out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks and posts!

i listen with my whole being when im here

seeing how people interact with ones they disagree with

it reveals alot about the man or woman

so we may not steal or murder or take the NAME of the LORD in vain

we still discount GODS CHILDREN

in our hearts and minds

and that is breaking all the LAW

and it brings sorrow to our GOD

DR RICH GOD bless u and your ministry

JESUS has a lot to teach u and show u !

everyone here has something to show u here

dont count it out

GOD has a purpose for u being here

PRAY u have the right SPIRIT to receive it

remember u r a SERVANT

[minky]

You cannot keep the commandments unless you are converted and have a love for Christ. It's not that simple