Is Ted Wilson Misinformed About Elective Abortions in Adventist Hosp.?

[Tammy]

Tammy,

I do think you are right on that one. There is a disconnect, if in case you think that the church does not make strong enough stands on abortion.

Adventist hospital performing abortion is a terrible thing. Sure, there are abortions to save the mother, but even in case of rape it's not baby's fault. Given the choice to live or not if I was a rape child... I would definitely say I would like to live. It's so unfortunate that these little human beings don't have a voice in the matter.

I doubt that church would "bless" the abortion anymore than they would "bless" smoking or drinking. Unfortunately, it's a matter that's usually secret, and people don't go around saying that they've had abortion. Mothers usually end up regretting it from what I've seen when working for non-profits dealing with the issue.

It's a complex issue, and I do agree that the church should not only make a stand on it, but be more sensitive and caring to young mothers who do get pregnant outside of marriage. There are ways to do that without encouraging such things.

Thank you for your post.

My oldest daughter is due with her first baby in a month. Yesterday I put my hand on her belly and could feel the baby wiggling around. Abortion is nothing less than the cruelest murder of the most helpless.

[Tammy]

Now, it appears to me that you are operating on the basis of a fallacy which leads you to believe that one of the Adventist doctrines is to prohibit elective abortions. I hasten to advise you that if this is your understanding, it is not Ted Wilson but you who is misinformed. There is no such doctrine in the Seventh-day Adventist church. And at such time as any such doctrine might ever possibly be introduced, that day would see me separate myself from such church.

Beings the founders and Pioneers of the Church were all Pro-Life, it is only fair that those who decide to hold a Pro-Death (that truly is what Pro-Choice is) belief leave the Church and start their own church. It would be better for everyone involved..."How can two walk together except they be agreed?"

There will NEVER be unity on this subject within the Church. I think that is one reason the Wilson is afraid to take a stand on it because he knows he cannot make everyone happy. If he takes a stand with the Pro-Life side, the Pro-Death side will be furious. If he takes a stand with the Pro-Death side, the Pro-Life side will be furious...He can't win. I see no other option than to split the Church.

[Nic Samojluk]

Originally Posted By: Jeannieb43

Now, it appears to me that you are operating on the basis of a fallacy which leads you to believe that one of the Adventist doctrines is to prohibit elective abortions. I hasten to advise you that if this is your understanding, it is not Ted Wilson but you who is misinformed. There is no such doctrine in the Seventh-day Adventist church. And at such time as any such doctrine might ever possibly be introduced, that day would see me separate myself from such church.

Beings the founders and Pioneers of the Church were all Pro-Life, it is only fair that those who decide to hold a Pro-Death (that truly is what Pro-Choice is) belief leave the Church and start their own church. It would be better for everyone involved..."How can two walk together except they be agreed?"

There will NEVER be unity on this subject within the Church. I think that is one reason the Wilson is afraid to take a stand on it because he knows he cannot make everyone happy. If he takes a stand with the Pro-Life side, the Pro-Death side will be furious. If he takes a stand with the Pro-Death side, the Pro-Life side will be furious...He can't win. I see no other option than to split the Church.

I would like to add the following:

There is another alternative, and that is that Jeannieb43 might be misinformed. In the Redlands, California, public meeting on February/2011, Ted Wilson stated explicitly that elective abortions are not condoned by the Adventist Church, and you can verify this by reading the church’s document entitled “Guidelines on Abortion” which was approved by the General Conference Autumn Council in 1992 which reads as follows:

Guidelines on Abortion

"Abortions for reasons of birth control, gender selection, or convenience are not condoned by the Church."

"Church institutions should be provided with guidelines for developing their own institutional policies in harmony with this statement."

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/guidelines/main-guide1.html

This means that several Adventist hospitals have been acting in direct violation of church policy and in violation of the Sixth Commandment which states: “You shall not murder.”

[doug yowell]

This means that several Adventist hospitals have been acting in direct violation of church policy and in violation of the Sixth Commandment which states: “You shall not murder.”

Not that anyone in leadership really cares.

[Overaged]

All I'm saying is, you and I cannot make that choice for another person. So. If it should ever come to the point where a member of my family is faced with such a decision, I would sincerely hope and pray that she would have the assistance of good, Godly physicians and social workers, preferably located in an Adventist hospital, to make sure she comes through that procedure without losing her life. Because poorly performed abortions can and do sometimes cause death not only to the fetus but also to the mother. We *need* to have professional physicians and nurses available to save the lives of those experiencing this crisis.

And, I hope Ted Wilson never feels he has to dictate to SDA hospitals that they do [or do not] perform abortions. THAT is strictly a medical decision -- not a theological one.

A great post jeannieb43. Too many people are trying to be the conscience for us about too many things. That is not right. Of course, Nic will continue to point the finger at those who see this differently than him, and cry "murder," but he places a lot of confidence in what his "friend" "Patrick" at Catholic Answers Forum has fed him with. "Patrick" is not his friend, as he will find out.

[Overaged]

Not that anyone in leadership really cares.

Says who? Doug Yowell? By what authority?

[Overaged]

I have the testimony of two witnesses who have heard a former president of the North American Division of the church argue as follows: “If we refuse to profit from th abortion business, others will.”

You & your constant parade of "witnesses." You can't just provide references that the general public can easily verify can you? Just say so's and I know so's, all based on the great lie you spread all over the internet.

[Overaged]

Seventh Day Adventists and Abortions

How is it that smoking and drinking are worse sins than killing your baby? Members are not allowed to smoke and drink, but they are allowed to kill their babies...and they can even go to an Adventist hospital to have the sin of abortion committed! A person cannot be a member in "good standing" if he/she smokes/drinks...but if she kills her baby, well, that is OK, no problem, you can do that and have the blessing of the CHURCH!

It boggles my mind! How can intelligent people be so blind?????

It just doesn't make any sense...how is it that you think the Church can make rules on what one eats and drinks, but it cannot make a rule that its members cannot kill their own children????

Anyone with common sense can see that there is something really wrong with this picture.....

How can you & Nic be so blind? The Church nowhere condones elective abortions; and the fact that they do not judge someone the way some here apparently do, when they do choose an abortion is what you use to feed your lies to the public. "Adventist" hospitals that do perform/permit abortions, don't necessarily do it with General Conference blessings; yet you feel so free to judge them, the very way you say that no one would have any right on earth to do to you. There are many non-Adventist entities involved with Adventist hospitals that perform abortions. it is just plain lies to judge the GC, and our official beliefs, based on such falsehood.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged wrote:

“Too many people are trying to be the conscience for us about too many things. That is not right. Of course, Nic will continue to point the finger at those who see this differently than him, and cry "murder," but he places a lot of confidence in what his "friend" "Patrick" at Catholic Answers Forum has fed him with. "Patrick" is not his friend, as he will find out.”

*********

If you are right on this, then we should perhaps strike out the Sixth Commandment of the Decalogue, and if we strike the Sixth, for consistency sake we should strike the other nine as well. What is the point of having God’s Law, if we are led to ignore it. And let’s not forget to delete our Guideline on Abortion condemnation of elective abortions.

It is not Nic who cries murder. It is the Bible which cries murder and the Bible is joined by the Adventist pioneers, and also the Adventist Church which declares that the church does not condone abortions on demand. The Adventist Church condemns elective abortions on demand, and Ted Wilson said so in his Redlands, California meeting. The problem is not what the church teaches about elective abortion; it is rather what the church permits some of its hospitals to practice with impunity.

In addition, Wilson seems to be misinformed about such practice. He publicly stated that elective abortions in our Adventist hospitals is down to almost zero, and the public record of hospital procedures shows the opposite. Did you read the analysis I posted above? How can you ignore the statistics I posted and suggest that I am the culprit here?

By the way, Patrick is a former Adventist who left the Adventist Church over the issue of elective abortions in Adventist hospitals. He decided that his views of the relevance of the Sixth Commandment were more important than other issues. I know of several Adventists who have done the same. Rome compromised on the Fourth Commandment and we Adventists have done the same to the Sixth one. This is crystal clear, I believe.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged wrote:

“You & your constant parade of "witnesses." You can't just provide references that the general public can easily verify can you? Just say so's and I know so's, all based on the great lie you spread all over the internet.”

*********

Yes, I can. Here is one of them:

“The profit motivation for our church’s involvement in the abortion business was verified by the testimony of Tammy Roesch who posted the following comment on “The Narrow Way Ministries” web site:

“It was almost 30 years ago, so I cannot remember exactly the wording, but we attended a forum on a Sabbath afternoon at the Collegedale SDA Church. Neal Wilson was taking questions from the audience and someone asked him why our SDA hospitals perform abortions? He responded back that the women were going to obtain the abortions somewhere, so we may just as well make the money off them as someone else make the money. We were shocked. We didn’t even know that our SDA hospitals did abortions…and then to hear this from the Presidents own mouth! We never looked at the Church the same again.”

“An Open Letter to Ted Wilson” The Narrow Way Ministries. http://www.thenarrowway.yourlivecommunit...9-1c6372b5.html on 25 Oct. 2006.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged wrote:

“How can you & Nic be so blind? The Church nowhere condones elective abortions; and the fact that they do not judge someone the way some here apparently do, when they do choose an abortion is what you use to feed your lies to the public. "Adventist" hospitals that do perform/permit abortions, don't necessarily do it with General Conference blessings; yet you feel so free to judge them, the very way you say that no one would have any right on earth to do to you. There are many non-Adventist entities involved with Adventist hospitals that perform abortions. it is just plain lies to judge the GC, and our official beliefs, based on such falsehood.”

*********

Precisely! The Adventist “Guidelines on Abortion” specifically state that the church does not condone abortion on demand, and the president of the General Conference recently publicly reiterated this fact, but it has tolerated the killing of thousands of innocent babies in some of its hospitals in direct violation of its own policy dealing with elective abortions and in opposition to the biblical injunction forbidding the killing of innocent human beings.

The non-Adventist entities which you refer to as performing abortions has nothing to do with the statistics I submitted in my letter to Ted Wilson. The abortions I make reference to in said letter were reported to have been performed by our Washington Adventist Hospital and the Shady Grove Hospital. These statistics are recent, covering the 2008-2010 years. You can’t weasel out of this documented data so easy. If you have contrary evidence, please submit it for consideration. I am willing to be corrected, but only with solid documented information. Where is the evidence that we are relying on “falsehood”?

[Stan]

Is anyone here involved with providing a way that those who are in an unwanted pregnancy can have help to bring her to term? and to help them through the first few years?

[teresaq]

Having been a single parent, I would suggest a much longer commitment!

It's easy to bring a child into the world, much harder to raise them as God would have us raise them!

[doug yowell]

[And, I hope Ted Wilson never feels he has to dictate to SDA hospitals that they do [or do not] perform abortions.

Just a minor point to SDA's, the GC president is not a dictator.

[doug yowell]

And, I hope Ted Wilson never feels he has to dictate to SDA hospitals that they do [or do not] perform abortions. THAT is strictly a medical decision -- not a theological one. A great post jeannieb43.

A great post??? Killing your unborn child is a strictly non-theological issue??? And are smoking, alcohol, or drug use also strictly non-theological decisions? What about the "you are not your own..." implications?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

Not that anyone in leadership really cares.

Says who? Doug Yowell? By what authority?

By the authority of an undeniable witness; actions that speak louder than words. (even though my authority should be sufficient!)

[doug yowell]

*********

Precisely! The Adventist “Guidelines on Abortion” specifically state that the church does not condone abortion on demand, and the president of the General Conference recently publicly reiterated this fact, but it has tolerated the killing of thousands of innocent babies in some of its hospitals in direct violation of its own policy dealing with elective abortions and in opposition to the biblical injunction forbidding the killing of innocent human beings.

It must be noted that President Wilson's answer admitted that elective abortions are still being done in SDA medical institutions."...Almost zero" is NOT ZERO it is more than zero (I think that's what almost means)!! Is that his final answer? He still has 3 lifelines left.

[doug yowell]

Too many people are trying to be the conscience for us about too many things. That is not right. .

That's what Brav has been saying all along about the church's stand on abstinence.Hey,maybe you guys are related?

[Overaged]

I know who "Patrick" is, and my statement still stands.

Too bad you are choosing to continue in your lies.

[Overaged]

Your math is weird. Abortions being done in some Adventist Hospitals does not translate into Adventists official approval of same. How you can continue to believe Nics Catholic lies is beyond me.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

[And, I hope Ted Wilson never feels he has to dictate to SDA hospitals that they do [or do not] perform abortions.

Just a minor point to SDA's, the GC president is not a dictator.

I did not post this. Stop your dirty falsehoods.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged said:

“I know who "Patrick" is, and my statement still stands. Too bad you are choosing to continue in your lies.”

*********

Perhaps you do. Here is your chance to show the evidence that you do. My question to you: Can you give me his real name? Patrick is the name he used when posting on the Internet blogs. Do you know his real name?

You are also accusing me of lying. I did ask you for evidence. Where is the evidence supporting your accusation? I did support my views with hard facts, and if I made any errors in the interpretation of said facts, I am willing to be corrected. Show me the evidence that I am misrepresenting the facts. Unless, you provide the evidence, readers will conclude that you are the one who is guilty of misrepresenting the truth.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged wrote:

“Your math is weird. Abortions being done in some Adventist Hospitals does not translate into Adventists official approval of same. How you can continue to believe Nics Catholic lies is beyond me.”

*********

My math is weird? Where is the evidence in support of your contention?

Did I say that the abortions performed in Adventist hospitals translate into the official Adventist approval of the same? Can you quote me saying this? I stated the opposite. Our “Guidelines on Abortion” specifically state that the church does not condone abortions on demand. What I said is that the church has been tolerating the direct violation of the church policy on abortion and the biblical injunction against the murder of innocent human beings.

The church should have severed its connection with hospitals which have been offering abortions on demand for years. A good example is our Washington Adventist Hospital, which has been described by a General Conference official as an “abortion mill.” By doing nothing to stop this kind of behavior is equivalent to what Pilate did. He washed his hands when he had the power to prevent the death of an innocent victim.

Besides, you continue to accuse me of deliberate lying. It is time that you provide some evidence in support of your accusation; otherwise this will boomerang against you.

[doug yowell]

And, I hope Ted Wilson never feels he has to dictate to SDA hospitals that they do [or do not] perform abortions. I did not post this. Stop your dirty falsehoods.

Yeah, sorry OA, I replied to someone else's comment off your post. Thought you'd understand that. I just was trying to rid the thing of all the

[Stan]

Having been a single parent, I would suggest a much longer commitment!

It's easy to bring a child into the world, much harder to raise them as God would have us raise them!

I so agree. It is easy to sit back, behind a keyboard, but what counts is what you said.