Is Ted Wilson Misinformed About Elective Abortions in Adventist Hosp.?

[teresaq]

...Perhaps you might wish to redirect your energies to making a home for the many abandoned children who are forced to live in poverty and deprivation when their mothers have no means to support them after their birth. That's a wide-open field for mission work right now.

Yes, that is what my bible seems to tell me.

[doug yowell]

i personally see a disconnect in your reasoning...you appear to jump from one situation to another yet want the same answer to all.

Try giving an answer instead of a statement about the questioner. You make a statement, I ask you to explain what you mean by that statement. You respond by making another statement about the reasoning for my question and I respond by asking you why you didn't answer my first question. I don't think my questions are all that difficult to understand. An answer to my original question about your understanding of a woman's freedom from any outside regulation of her bodily functions would not be the same answer I would expect from another disconnected statement. If you're looking for the freedom to make statements on this subject without having to clarify what you mean by them then I can understand your reluctance to not answer my simple questions.But you need to state this up front so I won't continue to pursue the question.However, when dealing with the life or death of an unborn human being I am hard pressed to jump away from the underlying principles that will determine it's fate. If you don't get the connection (of my question)then why not ask me to clarify it for you instead of automatically trying to analyze my reasoning capabilities?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

i personally see a disconnect in your reasoning...you appear to jump from one situation to another yet want the same answer to all.

Try giving an answer instead of a statement about the questioner. You make a statement, I ask you to explain what you mean by that statement. You respond by making another statement about the reasoning for my question and I respond by asking you why you didn't answer my first question. I don't think my questions are all that difficult to understand. An answer to my original question about your understanding of a woman's freedom from any outside regulation of her bodily functions would not be the same answer I would expect from another disconnected statement. If you're looking for the freedom to make statements on this subject without having to clarify what you mean by them then I can understand your reluctance to not answer my simple questions.But you need to state this up front so I won't continue to pursue the question.However, when dealing with the life or death of an unborn human being I am hard pressed to jump away from the underlying principles that will determine it's fate. If you don't get the connection (of my question)then why not ask me to clarify it for you instead of automatically trying to analyze my reasoning capabilities?

Looks like you are doing what you tell others not to do. perhaps you will continue with Nic to stand by and watch more babies die needlessly while you spend your energy blaming and singling out people that are not even responsible for any of this mess. Stop pretending to be so concerned and go after the ones who are doing the killing.

[doug yowell]

Looks like you are doing what you tell others not to do. perhaps you will continue with Nic to stand by and watch more babies die needlessly while you spend your energy blaming and singling out people that are not even responsible for any of this mess. Stop pretending to be so concerned and go after the ones who are doing the killing.

Thank you for the go ahead,OA, that's exactly what we've been trying to do with the church hospital system that has been given the ok to kill those babies. Adventist hospitals were killing them in the past and we are trying to make sure that they aren't doing it now, but the Church authorities, who claim the hospital's as their own, won't cooperate or vaidate their compliance with the no-kill zone. I give regularly to CPC's and other ministries that are trying to either fight abortion on demand or are in the business of ministering to it's victims. Do I still need to shut up?

[Overaged]

You said it - not me.

[doug yowell]

You said it - not me.

The "I am already helping those in need" part is what I said. The other was a question which I asked, so I'll assume that I should carry on as before.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged wrote:

“I actually don't blame them for not replying to you Nic; I wouldn't either if I were them.”

*********

If you justify the silent treatment I am getting from the church, and you claim that you would have done the same if you had been in their place, then how come you are arguing with me instead of being silent? Do I see a contradiction here?

Besides, is this the way the church shows their gratitude for the seven decades I have been sending my tithes and my offerings to them? When I send a donation to the Quiet Hour, to ADRA, the Voice of Prophecy, or any other entity, I get a thank you letter every time in response. I have never received a thank you letter from the General Conference for my tithes, except this silence.

[doug yowell]

When I send a donation to the Quiet Hour, to ADRA, the Voice of Prophecy, or any other entity, I get a thank you letter every time in response. I have never received a thank you letter from the General Conference for my tithes, except this silence.

Hey, this might make a good topic for further discussion. I suppose the church could send you a thank you note along with your year end tax receipt while at the same time ignoring your other requests."Thanks for your generous contributions.Now stop complaining!"

[phkrause]

Overaged wrote:

“I actually don't blame them for not replying to you Nic; I wouldn't either if I were them.”

*********

If you justify the silent treatment I am getting from the church, and you claim that you would have done the same if you had been in their place, then how come you are arguing with me instead of being silent? Do I see a contradiction here?

Besides, is this the way the church shows their gratitude for the seven decades I have been sending my tithes and my offerings to them? When I send a donation to the Quiet Hour, to ADRA, the Voice of Prophecy, or any other entity, I get a thank you letter every time in response. I have never received a thank you letter from the General Conference for my tithes, except this silence.

Unfortunitely OA I have to agree with Nic on this, even though I might not agree with him on everything.

[Guest]

I too am with Nic on this....

[Nic Samojluk]

Overage wrote:

“Looks like you are doing what you tell others not to do. Perhaps you will continue with Nic to stand by and watch more babies die needlessly while you spend your energy blaming and singling out people that are not even responsible for any of this mess. Stop pretending to be so concerned and go after the ones who are doing the killing.”

*********

Our tithes do not go directly to the Adventist hospitals that are doing the killing, but rather to the General Conference coffers. This means that neither Doug nor any other members have any leverage with the hospitals. As members of the church, the only option we have is to ask the GC to stop its connection with those hospitals that have chosen to disregard the church policy which condemns elective abortions. The church is the one with power to stop this genocide in some of our hospitals.

The church has demonstrated that it can act quickly and effectively when it wants some activity done in the name of the church discontinued. This was demonstrated when the GC legal department decided to put a stop to the pro-life activities of Mark Price. The church put him out of business with simply a telephone call to Facebook. Had the church done the same with the hospitals who have been violating the pro-life elements of our “Guidelines on Abortion” the performance of abortions in our hospitals would have stopped a long time ago.

[Overaged]

Overaged wrote:

“I actually don't blame them for not replying to you Nic; I wouldn't either if I were them.”

*********

If you justify the silent treatment I am getting from the church, and you claim that you would have done the same if you had been in their place, then how come you are arguing with me instead of being silent? Do I see a contradiction here?

Besides, is this the way the church shows their gratitude for the seven decades I have been sending my tithes and my offerings to them? When I send a donation to the Quiet Hour, to ADRA, the Voice of Prophecy, or any other entity, I get a thank you letter every time in response. I have never received a thank you letter from the General Conference for my tithes, except this silence.

Nic; you see a "contradiction" everywhere you look, and why on earth should we care where you send your tithes? It has nothing to do with this.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

Overaged wrote:

“I actually don't blame them for not replying to you Nic; I wouldn't either if I were them.”

*********

If you justify the silent treatment I am getting from the church, and you claim that you would have done the same if you had been in their place, then how come you are arguing with me instead of being silent? Do I see a contradiction here?

Besides, is this the way the church shows their gratitude for the seven decades I have been sending my tithes and my offerings to them? When I send a donation to the Quiet Hour, to ADRA, the Voice of Prophecy, or any other entity, I get a thank you letter every time in response. I have never received a thank you letter from the General Conference for my tithes, except this silence.

Unfortunitely OA I have to agree with Nic on this, even though I might not agree with him on everything.

No problem. I don't mind being disagreed with; especially when it is done in kindness such as you & Richard are showing.

[Nic Samojluk]

Overage wrote:

“Nic; you see a "contradiction" everywhere you look, and why on earth should we care where you send your tithes? It has nothing to do with this.”

*********

“Nothing to do with this”? Would you continue sending your donations to the Red Cross or the Salvation Army if they never sent to you a thank you note in seven decades, and refused to answer your requests for an explanation in the event you had positive proof that said organizations were responsible for the deaths of some of the people they were supposed to be helping?

[doug yowell]

Overage wrote:

“Nic; you see a "contradiction" everywhere you look, and why on earth should we care where you send your tithes? It has nothing to do with this.”

*********

“Nothing to do with this”? Would you continue sending your donations to the Red Cross or the Salvation Army if they never sent to you a thank you note in seven decades, and refused to answer your requests for an explanation in the event you had positive proof that said organizations were responsible for the deaths of some of the people they were supposed to be helping?

I'm thinking that OA is partially right here, Nic.You're taking the discussion down a different path.

[Overaged]

Overage wrote:

“Nic; you see a "contradiction" everywhere you look, and why on earth should we care where you send your tithes? It has nothing to do with this.”

*********

“Nothing to do with this”? Would you continue sending your donations to the Red Cross or the Salvation Army if they never sent to you a thank you note in seven decades, and refused to answer your requests for an explanation in the event you had positive proof that said organizations were responsible for the deaths of some of the people they were supposed to be helping?

As Doug said; you are and have been taking this thing down a different path than what you represent to the public. There are red flags all over the place with what you are trying to do

[phkrause]

No problem. I don't mind being disagreed with; especially when it is done in kindness such as you & Richard are showing.

[Nic Samojluk]

Doug wrote:

“I'm thinking that OA is partially right here, Nic.You're taking the discussion down a different path.”

*********

Perhaps you are right, or perhaps you have not yet walked in my shoes. For almost seven decades I have been sending my tithes and my offerings to an organization that has compromised on the most sacred element found in the Bible—the Decalogue, which is the only portion of the Bible which was written by God’s finger and the one that identifies the true Remnant.

Should I not be concerned about how my money is used? Here is an allegory I wrote several years ago which may help you understand why I believe that what I do with my money counts. When a pro-life woman read this she told me: I felt like my hands were stained with the blood of the innocent victims of abortion.

*********

A Stigmata Case in Loma Linda

by Nic Samojluk

Back in the nineties, the representatives of two leading SDA independent periodicals asked me to write an article in defense of the pro-life position on abortion. I opted to tell the story of my pilgrimage in search of the “Remnant,” and I chose the allegory literary style for said purpose. The result was what I entitled: “A Stigmata Case in Loma Linda.” I did submit said literary piece for publication to Adventist Today and Spectrum. That was a long time ago. I have since lost hope that it will ever be published.

Nevertheless, this experience convinced me that if I wanted to see it published, I would have to do this myself. This is how the web site SDA Forum was created. My literary creation was published in said forum, and one of those who read it, sent me the following comment from Spain: “After reading your literary piece, I felt that my hands were stained with blood.” As you read this, you can decide whether the work has any literary merit or not:

*********

“How long have you had these stains on your hands?” My devout catholic friend inquired.

I told him I had noticed them at least a decade ago, and I added that their size and coloration had become more conspicuous with the passage of time, especially on my right hand.

“They look to me like a case of stigmata,” my friend stated with some assurance. “If I am correct in my assessment, then you might be considered among the most privileged members of Christendom. You might even become a candidate for beatification and even sainthood two or three centuries after you die,” he added with some excitement. “I know that your church does not believe in the miracle of stigmata; but, perhaps God is trying to break through to your denomination. You should consult a priest; but first, you might have your doctor analyze these stains to insure they match your own genetic code.”

The DNA Blood Test Results

My physician ordered, rather reluctantly, a DNA test and a telephone call from my doctor followed. The first question I asked him was whether the test revealed the presence of human blood. He assured me it did. “But the curious detail,” he added, “is that the test reveals the presence of blood from very young individuals. It seems to be either neo-natal or fetal blood. Have you been close, perhaps unawares, to a crime scene?” He asked. This turn of events I did not like a bit; nevertheless, making an effort to hide my apprehension, I managed to ask him whether he had heard of similar cases before, to which he responded:

“Yes, I have. Especially in the last two decades or so. Actually, I detected an increase of reported cases beginning with the 1973 year. Medical science has been perplexed by this rare phenomenon, and the current theory is that the cause is not physiological, but rather psychological.

Science seems to be at a loss trying to explain the presence of foreign bloodstains resulting from exclusively altered psychological mental states. What I recommend is that you see an ethicist, a psychologist, or a psychiatrist.”

Me a mental case? I always thought to be mentally well balanced. This was beyond my psychological pain threshold. I was ready to hang up, but he added the following:

“There is a renowned ethics expert who recently published a book designed to help those with this rare symptom. You can see him, or you may want to see your pastor; or, if you are really serious, you may want to consult a well-known psychologist who relocated from Pasadena to Colorado Springs a few years ago. He is the best on this subject.”

The Ethical Diagnosis

Since I dreaded the idea of being diagnosed by a psychiatrist or a psychologist, and since I hated the thought of driving all the way to Colorado, especially in winter, I decided to see my friend, the ethicist. He greeted me with his friendly smile, and put me right at ease with the following words of reassurance:

“What you are experiencing should be no cause for worry. This is a quite common situation where symptoms reveal an overactive guilt feeling by association. Your doctor says the DNA test revealed the presence of human blood from a foreign source. We have analyzed this rare phenomenon and we have concluded that it is the blood of non-persons.

The Holy Book tells us that humans were created in ‘God’s image” and our prophet assures us that said image represents the ‘power to think and to do.’ My conclusion is that fetal blood is the blood of an entity that has not developed to a point where we can assign to it the category of personhood. There should not be any guilt associated with such bloodstains. You are as normal as you can be. If you accept this, these blood stains on your hands will eventually, slowly but surely, disappear with time.”

The Verdict of my Pastor

I left the office of my friend greatly relieved, but my problem persisted, so I had no choice but to consult my pastor. His reaction was similar, but slightly different from that of the ethics expert:

“Your concern is a valid one. There is something you can do about this problem. You should exercise your rights as a citizen of a democratic country. These bloodstains are the result of a Supreme Court decision rendered back in 1973. As a pastor, I regret the shedding of innocent blood, but the church should respect the freedom God and the government grants to individuals. Remember that Jesus Christ died to make us free. There is nothing more sacred than human freedom, for which our Redeemer paid a high price: his life.

If you cast the right votes, you have no reason to feel guilty for the actions of those whose vote is different from yours. The church must stay out of this controversial issue. We have no right to impose our personal values on those who feel otherwise. Many members of our congregation would feel offended if we were to transfer our guilt feelings upon them on this issue. If you can respect the personal preferences of others, your problem will, slowly but surely, disappear with time.”

The Psychologist’s Opinion

I hoped against hope that his advice would work for me. The fact is it didn’t, and I found myself winding the snowy roads leading to Colorado Springs. The sight of the snow-covered mountain peaks was really impressive, and the fresh and pure air, free from the smog-polluted Southern California landscape, was quite invigorating, which gave me a sense that somehow this trip might help me restore the peace of mind I craved so much. Soon I was in the presence of the renowned psychologist.

“This is definitely not a case of stigmata. Your doctor is correct in stating that these ugly bloodstains have a psychological origin. I also concur with your ethicist belief that humans were created in God’s image, and that this image is expressed in our “power to think and to do.” Nevertheless, this definition of humanness is incomplete. The correct definition includes the “power to think and to do God’s will.”

Your pastor says that Jesus Christ died to make us free, and I agree. He did die ‘to make us free,’ but again this sentence is incomplete. He did not offer his life in order to make us free to shed innocent blood, but he rather died ‘to make us free from sin.’ There is a world of difference between these diametrically opposed concepts. I also concur with your pastor that abortion is a controversial issue, but your ‘Sabbath’ is controversial as well, yet your magazines and books and sermons are filled with arguments in favor of worshipping God on the correct day of the week. Your denomination does not keep silent on this issue just because it is controversial.

Likewise, I agree with your pastor regarding our duty and privilege to exercise our voting rights. Nevertheless, the church has a prophetic role, which is to call people to repentance. Suffering and evil tends to increase whenever the voice of the church is silenced. All it takes for evil to increase is for good people to do nothing. This was true in Germany half a century ago, and it is true today. The Good Book condemns the shedding of innocent blood, and there is no more innocent blood than the blood of the unborn. It also cries to God like the blood of Abel whom Cain murdered.

Without that, both Hitler, who exterminated six million innocent Jews, and the Columbine students, who murdered more than a dozen of their classmates, would qualify. They revealed a remarkable ‘power to think and to do,’ but unfortunately, it was a power to think and to do not God’s will, but the will of the Evil One. They had developed the image, not of God, but the image of the one who has been ‘a murderer from the beginning.’”

Listening to all this was almost more than I could bear. My guilt feelings had suddenly increased to the breaking point. I felt like running away from his office without even saying good-bye. Nevertheless, I was somehow glued to my chair. I could not move, and I was almost unable to utter a word either. A long silence followed, after which he made the following final remark:

“I noticed that your right hand is the one with the ugliest blood stains, and I know why this is so. Evidently, you are right handed. Very likely, your right hand is the one that writes the checks to a pro-choice church, which makes you an accomplice in the shedding of all this innocent blood.”

The Results of my Research

On my return to Loma Linda, I went straight to the Heritage section of the Loma Linda University library. I was determined to prove the Colorado Springs psychologist wrong. I searched our church papers for the pro-life articles. The result? A total vacuum, while almost every issue had something about the Sabbath. I said to myself: “Surely, if I peruse the free-press SDA publications like Adventist Today and Spectrum the result will be different.” It was the same silence about what I now considered also sacred: human life.

I decided to run one more test. It would be my last chance to prove my psychologist wrong. I sent the Lord’s money to my church treasurer labeled as “pro-life/anti-abortion funds.” Four days later they were returned with the incredible explanation that neither the local church nor the Conference had such a program in operation. This was the last straw, which means that in the future my tithes and free-will offerings might have to go to Colorado Springs; or perhaps–the Lord forbid–to Rome!

[Nic Samojluk]

Overaged wrote:

“As Doug said; you are and have been taking this thing down a different path than what you represent to the public. There are red flags all over the place with what you are trying to do”

*********

I have to disagree with your assessment! I have been consistent, I believe, with my pro-life position. I have not wavered from the mission the Lord has laid on my shoulders. I have to take my orders from above. So help me God.

You are very good at making statements for which you offer no evidence. Please, identify some of the red flags you are referring to. Blank statements bereft of evidence will never help me correct anything.

[doug yowell]

As Doug said; you are and have been taking this thing down a different path than what you represent to the public. There are red flags all over the place with what you are trying to do

That's not what I said, OA. It's simply that going down the "what should I do if...?" is a related but potentially unrelated discussion. Too easy to get way off track, too hard to get refocused.The whole thing could easily be attached to any number of issues where one may have strong disagreements with church practice or policy.Know what I mean?

[Overaged]

No. I don't know