Surprise! Bush absolved - places all blame on others

[bevin]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050331/ap_on_go_pr_wh/intelligence_commission

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In a scathing report, a presidential commission said Thursday that America's spy agencies were "dead wrong" in most of their judgments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction before the war and that the United States knows "disturbingly little" about the threats posed by many of the nation's most dangerous adversaries.

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The report implicitly absolves the Bush administration of manipulating the intelligence used to launch the 2003 Iraq war, putting the blame for bad intelligence directly on the intelligence community.

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Yeah right. Hands up those who think the PRESIDENTIAL commission didn't just bring in the report the PRESIDENT asked for...

/Bevin

[K]

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[:"blue"]The report, approved unanimously by the bipartisan nine-member panel, followed the failure of U.S. inspectors in Iraq to turn up any weapons of mass destruction. The existence of weapons stockpiles — detailed in dozens of intelligence reports before the March 2003 invasion — was the administration's leading argument for toppling Saddam Hussein. [/]

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Doesn't this make the USA look really good. It makes me mad that we have put our troops on the line and our money into a big mess over there. How are we ever going to get out of Iraq.

K

[Neil D]

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Yeah right. Hands up those who think the PRESIDENTIAL commission didn't just bring in the report the PRESIDENT asked for...

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Well, what I remeber reading was that it was a BIPARTISAN commission...Trouble is, I don't remember any democrates being on it....

[Dr. Shane]

Don't get too mad, Sister K. Since going into Iraq we have discovered the extent of the UN Oil-for-food scandel. We discovered saddam was bribing UN members to get sanctions lifted, supported terrorists and planned to resume WMD programs after sanctions were lifted. Yep, we dodged a bullet. We even discovered that Saddam was trying to mislead the world to believe he had WMDs - so much so his own intelligence agency believed he had them!

Yep, drop to your knees and thank God that Saddam is out of power.

[Nicodema]

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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050331/ap_on_go_pr_wh/intelligence_commission

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In a scathing report, a presidential commission said Thursday that

America's spy agencies were "dead wrong"

in most of their judgments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction before the war and that the

United States knows "disturbingly little" about the threats posed by many of the nation's most dangerous adversaries.

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More important than vindicating those of us who knew this (or sensed it) all along is asking the question how this will impact the policies of this present administration when it comes to war. Will these men learn from their errors now that these errors are admitted by them? Or will they simply plow their way forward randomly taking on any and every nation deemed to be a threat without thorough reconnaissance and proper attempts at diplomatic resolution FIRST? THAT is what remains to be seen. In my opinion, if they do not demonstrate a complete 180 turn as a result of these admissions, it is utterly d*mnable of them, and ought to be seen as such even by their supporters. If it is not seen as such, then we have no alternative but to once and for all conclude the entire lot of them duplicitous in the extreme -- and unforgivably, intolerably so.

Nico

[K]

Yep, I've been thanking God everyday that another mad man has been dethroned. I guess will be hitting North Korea next, since he actually has weapons that are scary!

Oh and after North Korea Shane . . .who next. What 3rd world nation will we overpower and try to force democracy on????

K

[wicklunds]

Yeah! Democracy at gunpoint...what kind of message are we sending now? Why is it that the Bush administration seems to have overlooked this nightmarish fact? It seems that they are not concerned about public perception. Although I am sure there are some families in Iraq that are very happy that Saddam is gone, what has it cost us? Now we are the losers because of the manner in which change came about. We are the tyrannical looking ones now.

[Neil D]

[:"blue"]

April 3, 2005

BY TOM RAUM

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Click Here

WASHINGTON -- The latest intelligence-failure report to land on President Bush's desk raises serious questions about his policy of preemptive action against potential foes.

How can he order such strikes if he doesn't have solid information?

Findings by the special presidential commission could also complicate American efforts to mend fences with allies who opposed the Iraq war. U.S. officials might have a hard time persuading other nations to accept new American intelligence on the world's next hot spot after being ''dead wrong,'' as the panel put it, on Iraq. [/] Intel report could give allies pause

[Dr. Shane]

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Democracy at gunpoint...

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That is how democracy always comes about. Freedome isn't free. To those that have defended it, freedom has a meaning the protected will never know.

[jasd]

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It is hubristic to assume that we, the masses, are privy to the entire catalog of decision-shaping information. Sometimes, realizing that, we are obliged to acknowledge that the administration might be in a better position to formulate policy, --than are we, or might be. Allowance --might be prescribed.

>>Oh and after North Korea Shane . . .who next. What 3rd world nation will we overpower and try to force democracy on????<<

Not to worry. Remember, Clinton drew down our military capability by 45% (let’s hope we can recoup some of that before out enemies (allies?) devastate our currency --without which, we can kiss any effort to rebuild our military capabilities bye-bye {we had to lease foreign-flagged ships to deliver much of our equipment to Iraq}). We couldn’t do anything about N. Korea, if we wanted to; they have the world’s fifth largest military --and they are within the Chinese sphere of influence. Besides, what are we going to do, nuke the starving masses? Anyway,

are they players in OPEC?

>>Yeah! Democracy at gunpoint...what kind of message are we sending now?<<

That OPEC should have second thoughts about severing the dollar-as-denominator from oil? That Mecca and Haram esh-Sharif are vulnerable?

>>It seems that they are not concerned about public perception.<<

There are other priorities, which actually have found expression in earlier administrations. One of the being...

“As early as April 1997, a report from the James A. Baker Institute of Public Policy at Rice University addressed the problem of "energy security" for the United States, and noted that the US was increasingly threatened by oil shortages in the face of the inability of oil supplies to keep up with world demand. In particular the report addressed "The Threat of Iraq and Iran" to the free flow of oil out of the Middle East. It concluded that Saddam Hussein was still a threat to Middle Eastern security and still had the military capability to exercise force beyond Iraq's borders.”

>>We are the tyrannical looking ones now.<<

No matter what happens elsewhere in the world, our major media outlets, the fifth column passing itself off as the fourth estate, will always ensure that a goodly portion of American citizens believe --we are, deservedly, the world pariah --center stage. I am persuaded that during times of war

we ought do as Lincoln did.

>>U.S. officials might have a hard time persuading other nations to accept new American intelligence on the world's next hot spot after being ''dead wrong,''<<

Weren’t the same ‘intelligence’ reports prompting Clinton to act, however indecisively he did act? Doesn’t Congress have access to the same ‘intelligence’ the Administration does? (Why then, if persuaded by the ‘intelligence’, did they, almost unanimously, --give Dubya a blank check? Howz’bout the UN? Seems to me they were of the same bent regards WMDs; only WMDs awhile-ago back included chemical and bioweapons -- not limited, as presently, to Nukes-as-WMDs. (see what I mean about the fifth column?) Any-the-how,

whilst we lay everything to Dubya…; did Ariel Sharon say the following?

“ “Peres warned Sharon Wednesday that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and “turn the US against us.” At this point, a furious Sharon [reportedly] turned toward Peres, saying “every time we do something you tell me Americans will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it.” ” [ed.] —Israel radio, Kol Yisrael, 3 October, 2001 (IAP News)

[excised]“…the Americans know it.”[/] Did any of y’all in ‘01?

Maybe, that, the top five slots in the CIA were Jewish might bear on the matter? 3/4ths the top slots in the NSA? the NeoCons? that the State of Israel wanted to carve out a Khurdistan State from Turkey, Syria, and Iraq to have, as a client state?

Too transverse? You see? It is hubristic to assume... All I am saying is,

Don’t, let us, subscribe to questionally-driven formulas fobbed on us by the, ahem, media; --Bush this, Bush that… There are probably attenuating factors that for matters of cause, will never see the light of day; national security, being one.

Mebbe, we ought to be focusing instead, on the fact that there is, internationally, increasing pressure being brought to bear against the dollar.

I don’t know --that we should be sharing ‘intelligence’ with supposed allies or other sundries that display an ambivalence or outright antipathy about American concerns.

[wicklunds]

Oh yes! the media have their agenda too. But I believe there are major flaws in the Bush approach to "democracy". Think about how our own country received a democratic form of government. I think that the way we are championing "democracy" is only a smokescreen so the US government can have autonomous control in a region that is key to world ecomnomic growth and stability. How could it be any different?

[bevin]

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Democracy at gunpoint...

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That is how democracy always comes about. Freedome isn't free. To those that have defended it, freedom has a meaning the protected will never know.

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Ignorance is so satisfying. It lets you make ludicrous claims with a self-righteous glow.

Name one country where democracy has been successfully imposed from outside.

Democracy has always started with the desire of the people to throw out the corrupt leaders and replace them with ejectable ones; and has always succeeded only when the people are prepared to die to achieve that.

/Bevin

[Neil D]

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That is how democracy always comes about. Freedome isn't free. To those that have defended it, freedom has a meaning the protected will never know.

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I really hate this self righteous smugness that comes accross. It's saying that "I know something that you don't know about. I expect to be paid respect because I defended YOUR freedoms with my life." Well, guess what? As a medical worker, I have put my life on the line everytime I go into the hospital setting. Everyone of us medical workers and police officers and firemen put our lives on the line everytime we go to work to save self righteous smug people like yourself. Granted, we may not have the bullets flying around like you may have, but we have 'bullets' of a different sort. We have to contain the enemy, disease,fire, bad guys and not allow it to come home to our loved ones. We have to go thru proceedures that make us save and not allow us to be contaners that spread this filth to everyone who we come in contact with. Sure, you may have gone into the military for 4 or 8 years, but I have 25 civilian years of waring with the enemy to protect your self righteous self and allow you to go home to your family without speading your disease around to them. I am one of many who are a team to protect your life.

So don't throw your self righteousness at us,Shane. IT is not appreciated.

So don't be so smug with your self righteousness about knowing something that we don't know about. And while you may think that we are not grateful for your work, the truth of the matter is, we are, except when you insist on throwing out your self righteousness. Then YOU can EXPECT a little "self righteous" from our own selves.

[Dr. Shane]

Don't get angry at me that you never chose to serve in the military. Veterns do deserve a respect beyond that extended to average Americans. Those that dispute that are obviosly not veterns and clearly do not understand the sacrifice of military service.

If I come accross as self-righteous, nothing could be further from the truth. I was honored to serve as a soldier. I am grateful for being able to serve. When in high school I was challenged in a history class by JFK. He asked me to ask myself not what my country could do for me but what I could do for my country. Well, I gave five years of my life to military service and my country gave me four years of college.

The United States is now the beast with the lamb-like horns. It is a gentle beast resembling Christ. The United States is generous with its money and blood. Millions of dollars are given to charities and spent to defend forgien nations.

Many now that criticise the US do so only because they don't like the President. When the presidency changes party the very ones that now criticise the nation will switch to defense and defend it. I try to be more objectionable than that.

Democracy does come at the price of blood and must come from within - like Brother Bevin pointed out. Yet the factions within are often not strong enough to throw off a repressive government without the aid of the free world.

[Planey]

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I try to be more objectionable than that.

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And often you suceed!

Graeme

[wicklunds]

Are you Dr. Graeme Bradford?

[Neil D]

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Don't get angry at me that you never chose to serve in the military.

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1] I never said that I didn't serve in the military, Shane. And I choose not to talk about it.

2] I do get angry at you, Shane. I am holding you accountable for your smug attitude, your "I am better than you", your " I am a vet and I deserve repect from you!"

3]NO Adventist, let alone Christian, would ever place himself in that position without realizing his peril of his soul. If that is judging you, then I judge you for your pride, Shane. And the bible says that pride goes before the fall.

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If I come accross as self-righteous, nothing could be further from the truth. I was honored to serve as a soldier.

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And I am glad you were a soldier too, Shane. But when you keep throwing it in our faces, the humility wears abit thin and the nakedness of your pride shows thru.

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When in high school I was challenged in a history class by JFK.

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Well I am glad you were challenged by JFK. I met the man when he came to Lassen Park in California while touring Shasta County in Northern California. I was 6 years old at the time and hardly knew what I was getting into.

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Many now that criticise the US do so only because they don't like the President.

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Well, I don't blame them, especially when the President allows corporation favorabled legislation to pass congress, when that very same president waters the very seeds that will cause this great nation to fail and become the beast, when the US throws it's political weight and makes the other nations tremble economically and when you defend him like he is some walking saint.

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I try to be more objectionable than that.

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Oh you so so well, suceed in that, my friend.

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Democracy does come at the price of blood and must come from within

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Don't try to change the topic here. It's you that I am holding accountable for your pride . And it is this pride that has gotten you into trouble, this smuggness that you are better than anyone on this board because you served in the military , this 'military pride' that you throw into the face of all here...those whom you think have not served, those who are Adventist with valid view points, those who live outside this great country of our...those that disagree with you. Tell me Shane, where is the Lord in all of that pride? I remember a text that say that among other objectionable people, those who are prideful are also found outside the walls of Jerusalem....

[Planey]

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Are you Dr. Graeme Bradford?

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ROFL - No, though I know him. Note that he is an ordained pastor and I am far from that.

He has written a book about EGW called "Prophets Are Human Too" and is apparently almost finished (soon to be published anyway) a follow-up volume.

Graeme

[wicklunds]

How is it that you are from NSW Australia and yet you have a peculiarly spelled first name like G-R-A-E-M-E, and yet somehow you are not him? Also, you know of his two books. Seems an uncannily strange coincidence. Maybe the name graeme is common in NSW? Dont know why, but...

[Planey]

Graeme is the more common way of spelling in Australia and it is just a coincidence that I know Pastor Bradford. His son is maried to the daughter of one of the couples at our local church. He preached here earlier this year and then came to our place for lunch afterwards which is how I knew about the new book. Nothing mysterious there.

Graeme

[wicklunds]

oh... Still am suspicious...but oh well...

[Planey]

Bravus can vouch for me. I was teaching at a school in Newcastle at which he did some practise teaching.

You can find my name on this list of staff at my school. Coincidentally you will notice there is another staff member named Graeme as well:

school staff

Graeme

[wicklunds]

ok if you insist then...

[Dr. Shane]

Brother Neil, you do judge me and then try to justify it. You also put words into my mouth. But I will leave that between you and God.

I am not proad of having been a soldier. I am grateful for having the opportunity to serve. I do not expect extra respect from my fellow citizens because of the service I gave. However I do give extra respect to others that too have given such service, especially those that have been placed in harm's way.

Those that have not served in harm's way cannot appreciate freedom as its defenders do. That is not a pride-filled statement. It is a simple fact of life. It can be said of convicted criminals that have been locked up and lost their freedom too. They too appreciate freedom in a way that those who have never lost their freedom cannot understand. When one joins the military they give up a number of the freedoms - not as much as prisoners but sometimes the military feels like a prison.

Some, like yourself, believe Bush is "watering seeds" that will help turn the US into the dragon-speaking beast. And you may be right. However that is pure speculation. Others say that cooperating with the UN brings the US closer to becoming the dragon-speaking beast. That is pure speculation too. I have no problem with such speculation as long as we speak of it as speculation and not as if we somehow have a truth unknown to others. You don't know that Bush is taking the country down the wrong track. You think he is. But that is your opinion and not infallable truth from the mounth of God. You may be wrong just as I may be wrong. We can only speculate.

[K]

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[:"blue"] That is how democracy always comes about. Freedome isn't free. To those that have defended it, freedom has a meaning the protected will never know[/]

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If some world power had butted into the early founding of this country, we could have easily been under someone else's rule. Our founders fought for their freedom. I am not sure how it is the US seems to think that we need to help others fight for their freedom. I wonder if the people of Iraq and Afghanistan appreciate the freedom they have since we kind of did all the work for them.

K