ClubV12 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Musicman, just to clairify this, do you, like Dr. Rich deny that Paul was an inspired writer? Sometimes it's so difficult to figure out where people are coming from. Half the time I can't even figure out who is and who isn't a Seventh-day Adventist around here! If some of you haven't figured out where I'm coming from: I'm a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church, I have zero interest in joining any group that fails to acknowledge the GC as the leader of God's remnant SDA church. Despite, how you may view their past or present condition. I believe firmly that Ellen White was the Lord's messenger sent to us in these last days for our edification on a christian lifestyle. Which in a nut shell is, draw closer to Jesus and quit worrying about the endless stream of "details" that get in the way (144,000 for instance, it's not pertinent to salvation). Just wanted to clear that up. I enjoy your posts Musicman, and many others, regardless of their position on the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Maybe the 144,000 is pertinent and you just don't know it yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I'll go with Ellen White on that. She said it's not, in the SAME letter, to a young man making inquiry of the same, she said what WAS important was to be in unity with the brethren above all. In that regard, I love you miz3, warts and all! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Although we disagree quite a bit I like you too, ClubV12! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 miz3, what type or version of the NT are you reading from? Clearly what you wrote is NOT the same as mine which is the NASV. Could be that is why your are so confused. By the way, John was writing to those who he and the disciples had taught and many of them had heard Jesus themselves. This group was called "THE WAY". Paul did not write any letter to any of those that were among "The Way". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Club, you would not have joined Jesus' group then for Jesus and His disciples acted independently of the G.C. of their day. They were seen as being antagonistic to the "organized work"... sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Musicman, just to clairify this, do you, like Dr. Rich deny that Paul was an inspired writer? Sometimes it's so difficult to figure out where people are coming from. Half the time I can't even figure out who is and who isn't a Seventh-day Adventist around here! If some of you haven't figured out where I'm coming from: I'm a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church, I have zero interest in joining any group that fails to acknowledge the GC as the leader of God's remnant SDA church. Despite, how you may view their past or present condition. I believe firmly that Ellen White was the Lord's messenger sent to us in these last days for our edification on a christian lifestyle. Which in a nut shell is, draw closer to Jesus and quit worrying about the endless stream of "details" that get in the way (144,000 for instance, it's not pertinent to salvation). Just wanted to clear that up. I enjoy your posts Musicman, and many others, regardless of their position on the church. ClubV12, I appreciate you as well. I enjoy a good discussion even though I might disagree with the person I am having the discussion with. I also am an SDA. But unlike you I do not acknowledge anyone as the leader of the remnant Kingdom of Heaven other that Jesus Christ and Him alone. For that reason I cannot and do not count Paul as a credible witness to the message that Jesus Christ taught to His own disciples because Paul was NOT an eyewitness disciple of Jesus while He was here on earth. There are just too many discrepancies between what Jesus said and what Paul wrote for me to be able to reconcile Paul as a legitimate apostle of Jesus Christ. Because Jesus finished His works on earth and gave prophecy of the end of time in both the OT to Daniel and in the NT to John (Revelation), and because Jesus gave prophecy of His own that dovetails perfectly with Daniel and Revelation I cannot seen that God had any need for another end time prophetess that did nothing but muddy the prophetic waters (as it were) and cause confusion and controversy within the Kingdom of Heaven. This may not fit with your picture of 'a good Adventist' but I am first and foremost a follower of Jesus Christ and Him alone. He is my Master and I am His bondservant. I look to Him and His words and teachings as the standard against which everything and anyone else must be measured. To me both Paul and EGW have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Finally, and as an example, if the 144,000 were not important to salvation and the understanding of end-time events then God would not have included them in the prophetic testimony in Revelation. I trust completely that God knew what He was doing when He included references to the 144,000 in both Revelation and in Matthew. If He put it there it must be important, so who am I to say differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 miz3, what type or version of the NT are you reading from? Clearly what you wrote is NOT the same as mine which is the NASV. Could be that is why your are so confused. By the way, John was writing to those who he and the disciples had taught and many of them had heard Jesus themselves. This group was called "THE WAY". Paul did not write any letter to any of those that were among "The Way". I like to use the NIV 1984. I take it that what you like to use is the New American Standard Version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 You might be right Sky, I might have been over at the "widows mite" place, with her and friends, sighing and crying for the abominations of the church. While making preparation for the Sabbath and attendance at the synagogue in the morning. Hoping maybe Jesus will be there to read from the scrolls! In other words, I DO believe it is possible to be separate and still supportive of the church in all ways. I'm in this thing for the long haul and I recognize how easy it will be to slip into a pattern and get comfortable. Or find all the rules to restrictive or begin to look to other church members for acceptable SDA christian standards. The challenge, as I see it, is for me to live the life I read about, study about and follow the counsels of Ellen White. To not be influenced to any standard that falls short of what the Testimonies call for. I'm taking hard concrete steps to move in that direction. Looking for land in the country, thinking about how I can support myself and make room for others, dedicating all my resources to the Lord. Doing this in a reasonable logical way so as not to burden or condem by appearance those around me. I WILL attend and be as active within my local church as possible while pursuing this alternate lifestyle. I love the church, God's remnant church, the SDA church and I will not give that up easily. Somebody needs to stay, live the life, demonstrate it can be done. May God help me, I don't know if that someone is me... Sometimes I wonder if and where there are others that feel the same way? But I will not be looking for them in some group that has removed itself from the "camp". In that regard, I was impressed by Pastor Chicks comment about soccer balls, he didn't need any. When it comes to sports, he goes by the beat of a different drummer. That was impressive, I know exactly what he's talking about and I've come to the same conclusion myself. Not that I'm about to join his group, I'm just sayin', there is a different drum beat than that which is commonly accepted. I guess racing cars and soccer balls are a little different, but then again, are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Musicman, just to clairify this, do you, like Dr. Rich deny that Paul was an inspired writer? Sometimes it's so difficult to figure out where people are coming from. Half the time I can't even figure out who is and who isn't a Seventh-day Adventist around here! If some of you haven't figured out where I'm coming from: I'm a member of the Seventh-day Adventist church, I have zero interest in joining any group that fails to acknowledge the GC as the leader of God's remnant SDA church. Despite, how you may view their past or present condition. I believe firmly that Ellen White was the Lord's messenger sent to us in these last days for our edification on a christian lifestyle. Which in a nut shell is, draw closer to Jesus and quit worrying about the endless stream of "details" that get in the way (144,000 for instance, it's not pertinent to salvation). Just wanted to clear that up. I enjoy your posts Musicman, and many others, regardless of their position on the church. Club, there is no doubt that both Saul/Paul and EGW were inspired just as were Mohammud and Joseph Smith! The question is: by who? Without the words of Paul, Luke and the UNK writer of Hebrews, we would not be having this debate today. Why, because there would be perfect unity in the words of Jesus Christ and in Him only. As a third generation SDA, I have been there and done that and know many of the Adventist leaders. But as a professional investagative lawyer, I have uncovered so many false and misleading words from both Paul and EGW that I have gone back to the initial common denominator for the truth, and that is the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses. Only those who were with Jesus during His ministry could remember what Jesus said and taught through the power of the Holy Spirit as found in John 14:26. Jesus prayed for those of 'us' who have read those same words and undertand them and obey everything Jesus said and taught as found in John 17:17-20. Jesus did NOT pray for those who read the words of Paul, Luke or EGW! Personally, I like it this way because I know that Jesus prayed to His Father for ME! By the way, Jesus made it clear that there is only ONE teacher and leader and that is Jesus Christ Himself! He didn't even make any of the disciples a leader of the rest--they all had the same job. If you will read about the history of the Adventist church you will notice that this is how it too started and when some wanted to organize with leaders and teachers, many said that when that happens they will become just as evil as the Catholics are. Following after a leader like EGW is like the blind leading the blind. What will you say when you find that EGW is not amoung those who are saved? Will you blame her and Paul for your blind 'faith'? Have you actually read Rev. 21:8 and 22:15? Believing a lie is not a healthy thing to do! On the other hand, how can one believe in a lie by following ONLY the words of Jesus given to us by His eyewitnesses? Huh? Do you actually believe Jesus lied? Do you actually think that Jesus did NOT give us everything we need to know about how salvation works in His own ministry here on earth? Do you actually believe that Jesus didn't know what Paul was going to do? Do you actually believe that anyone needs the words of Paul or EGW to understand how salvation works? If so, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Just to be VERY clear on the issue of inspiration. When I'm referencing Paul and Ellen White I specifically mean inspired by the Holy Spirit, people of and directed by the Lord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Club, I understand where you are. I love the SDA message too. As you know I am not calling people to separate from the church but there comes a time when God takes some of us away from the religious assemblies of men to take us into the "wilderness" if you will so He can teach us His message because He does not want us to be influenced by the "priests and rulers" who have not kept pace with the light. There is nothing new under the sun. History repeats itself. We are told that we will be surprised by the simple means that God will use to bring about and perfect His work of righteousness, that He will use ways and means by which it will be seen that He is taking the reins in His own hands. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 See [a](A)how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called (B)children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because ©it did not know Him. 2 (D)Beloved, now we are (E)children of God, and (F)it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He (G)appears, we will be (H)like Him, because we will (I)see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this (J)hope fixed on Him (K)purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and (L)sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He (M)appeared in order to (N)take away sins; and (O)in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him (P)sins; no one who sins has seen Him or (Q)knows Him. 7 ®Little children, make sure no one (S)deceives you; (T)the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is (U)of the devil; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. (V)The Son of God (W)appeared for this purpose, (X)to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [d](Y)born of God (Z)practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God. 10 By this the (AA)children of God and the (AB)children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who (AC)does not love his (AD)brother. 1John 3:1-10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Miz3, IF there is no difference in the words of Christ and Paul, then why do we need Paul's words? Huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Miz3, IF there is no difference in the words of Christ and Paul, then why do we need Paul's words? Huh? For the same reason that God sent many prophets to Israel. They all had the same basic message. What else did you expect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Dr. Rich, Even the communist religion has its apostles/prophets and they all have the same basic message. This is nothing new! Duh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 18, 2011 ... IF there is no difference in the words of Christ and Paul, then why do we need Paul's words? Huh? It's not that there is no "difference" but there is no contradiction. Paul adds to Jesus' teachings just as John the Revelator adds to Daniel and the other OT prophets. The reason there are "differences" between Christ and Paul is that they were speaking to two different audiences. Christ was fundamentally addressing Jews about Jewish concerns, whereas Paul was adddressing non-Jews about issues and problems faced by an essentially Gentile Church. Obviously, new conditions and situations required new applications of the gospel. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Thank you John317! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich ... IF there is no difference in the words of Christ and Paul, then why do we need Paul's words? Huh? It's not that there is no "difference" but there is no contradiction. Paul adds to Jesus' teachings just as John the Revelator adds to Daniel and the other OT prophets. The reason there are "differences" between Christ and Paul is that they were speaking to two different audiences. Christ was fundamentally addressing Jews about Jewish concerns, whereas Paul was adddressing non-Jews about issues and problems faced by an essentially Gentile Church. Obviously, new conditions and situations required new applications of the gospel. Did God speak to two different audiences when He took Israel out of Egypt? Were not there included in those that left Egypt something called the 'mixed multitude'? And did not these people have to accede to the same requirements as those who were the Children of Israel? There was NO difference in what God required of Israel and what He required of the mixed multitude, they were all on the same playing field and under the same rules. That is the same as it is today. All who would be in the Kingdom of Heaven must keep the Commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus (Rev.12:17). All must be born of the water and of the Holy Spirit (John 3:3,5). In this all are equal in the sight of God, and there is no difference between 'Jew or Gentile', 'male or female', etc. So when you say that there is a different gospel for Jews and non-Jews you are absolutely wrong. It is only Paul that teaches this theology. It is not taught either by God in the OT or by Jesus in the NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 So when you say that there is a different gospel for Jews and non-Jews you are absolutely wrong. It is only Paul that teaches this theology. It is not taught either by God in the OT or by Jesus in the NT. You are wrong! Paul does not teach one message to one and another message to another. As I told you before they may use different words but the message between Christ and Paul is the exact same message! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Dr. Rich, Even the communist religion has its apostles/prophets and they all have the same basic message. This is nothing new! Duh! We are talking about the ONE absolute truth here, not some nonsense religion. That ONE truth can only be found in the words of Jesus Christ and in Him only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 John and miz3, Jack Saquaria clearly proved that there was two different gospels, one that Jesus gave and another one that Paul gave. If you guys want to be saved by the gospel Paul gave, that is your choice. Paul taught that one must be adopted in the the KOH and Jesus taught that one MUST be born again by God into the KOH. And you say there is no controversey John? Huh? Where have you been hiding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: musicman1228 So when you say that there is a different gospel for Jews and non-Jews you are absolutely wrong. It is only Paul that teaches this theology. It is not taught either by God in the OT or by Jesus in the NT. You are wrong! Paul does not teach one message to one and another message to another. As I told you before they may use different words but the message between Christ and Paul is the exact same message! Then why did Paul say that he was sent to the Gentiles? Huh? Jesus ordained His own disciples to go the whole world and every nation to teach people from every realigon to OBSERVE the words of Jesus, not even their own words were to be observed, but only Jesus' words! There is NO WAY at all that you can make Pauls words the same as Jesus' words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.