We Thought Our Lord Should Come....

[ClubV12]

Genesis, a "full day", not, as some folks understand Daniel, a "half day". Well that takes care of the "day" part.

Now your turn. How do we get from a day to a year? Come on, I know you know this one! :)

[miz3]

Thank you Bob Ryan.

These are the only two Biblical references to any "day for a year" measurement in the entire Bible.

If you notice these two are references that use the "day for a year" measurement for those SPECIFIC INSTANCES ONLY!

There is nothing in either the Numbers text or the Ezekiel text that lays down that "prophetic time periods" are to counted in this "day for a year" manner in all cases of prophecy.

The fact is there is no Principle for counting a "a day for year" in the Bible at all. This is a human invented device used to explain passages of Scripture that could be worked out to fit the outcome needed by the expositor.

I am still waiting for ClubV12's Genesis reference that actually makes this year/day Principle clear.

[ClubV12]

Ah, I knew you knew the Ezekiel and Numbers reference!!!

The children of Israel didn't wander for 40 literal DAYS, after all.

My Genesis reference is a bit of a "red herring" in that address' the concept that some people mistake the "full day" for a "half day", so it's important in that regard.

I also understand some people don't accept the idea that the day/year principle applies to Daniel 8:14. Now, personally, I think it does, but, do we NEED it?

Not if you take "holy adjudicated" to mean "atonement". But I'm sure that is equally controversial. At the end of the day, those who chose to believe whatever it is they want to believe about the 2,300 days, years, will not be persuaded no matter what the argument is.

Thats why I thank God for the prophet, a more sure way than "man" to verify the interpretation and reach a solid position.

[miz3]

ClubV12 likes to think is more clever than he is.

I noticed when ClubV12 was presented with a proven case about Luther that he just buries his head and ignores the facts and continues to hold his untenable positions. For pages he denied the clear unambiguous evidence about Luther and eventually said he didn't care whether it was true or not he was going to believe what he wanted regardless of the evidence.

I think he is doing the same thing here again.

Unfortunately it may be that ClubV12 worships at the idol of EGW. This is something the Prophet herself would be intensely against. In doing this ClubV12 you actually diminish the effectiveness of her ministry. Maybe that is what he wants? Isn't that sort of like a wolf in sheep's clothing. Is that really a possibility?

[ClubV12]

"ClubV12 likes to think is more clever than he is."

ClubV12 doesn't like to be patronized with silly rhetorical questions by someone who clearly knows the answer already!

If prophet worship is your hangup, don't stop with one, add Moses and a couple of others to your list of idols as well.

It was said, in that thread, Luther was more evil than Hitler. Which is not even worthy of a response...

[Aliensanctuary]

Unfortunately, many have been misled by denominational leaders and preachers into thinking that Last Days events have been occurring over the last several thousand years. Thus, DFAY makes sense to those who believe this way.

If we ignore the denominational propaganda and accept that there is no scriptural proof that one prophetic day = one prophetic year, then we must realize that one prophetic day must = one prophetic day. Therefore, the Last Days are future, and of just a few years duration: 2300/360= 6.39 years, for example.

In order to understand the prophecies of the Last Days, we need to understand that the 4 Kingdoms of the Last Days arise after the resurrection of nearly all of the people who have ever lived, thus this event is described as a "sea" of people. Daniel describes some of these rapidly occurring changes during this 6+ year period. Several of the resurrected leaders of kingdoms past will once again rise to power and dominate the whole world, assisted by those who are not from this world.

We shouldn't be too surprised when we find ourselves among this group of youthful, possibly naked, masses of people. The resurrectees are, of course, all cloned from DNA records and stored memories downloaded from each individual's life record. Maybe clothes will be a part of the resurrection process, maybe not.

In Matt 24, Jesus told his listeners what to expect during this period, because, they, along with ourselves, will be there, too. The Last Days is the time period when the whole world will be tested to determine to whom we will give our allegiance to, the LORD, or Satan. During that time, the LORD will give everyone a fair chance to learn about his Kingdom.

Those who live, will die, and those who die as martyrs for the LORD during the Last Days, will live. The second death will not harm them because the LORD can once again resurrect them so they can become workers in his Eternal Kingdom.

Our Founding Fathers and Mothers failed to read and understand Christ's prophecies for the Last Days, and instead created a flawed scenario based on errors.

[miz3]

ClubV12 doesn't like to be patronized with silly rhetorical questions by someone who clearly knows the answer already!

If prophet worship is your hangup, don't stop with one, add Moses and a couple of others to your list of idols as well.

It was said, in that thread, Luther was more evil than Hitler. Which is not even worthy of a response...

You can continue in your prophet worship but you should know that the Bible states:

You should worship only the Lord your God and Him only should you Serve!

If you really knew Moses then you would know Jesus Christ, and if you really knew Jesus Christ, you would then know God. I fear you are worshiping in the wrong house!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Thats why I thank God for the prophet, a more sure way than "man" to verify the interpretation and reach a solid position.

Just a point on proper reference: oughtn't people who believe that EGW wrote prophetically refer to her as a "prophetess," and not as a "prophet"? I mean, you know, to keep things straight? After all, she *was* a woman....

Then we could also refer to female pastors as "pastorettes"... although that sounds like some sort of French dessert..

Female elders are really "elderettes"...or would it be "eldresses"? I don't know...sounds like the name of cigarettes for old people..

but I digress...

[miz3]

Digression is what this discussion now needs.

[ClubV12]

That was hilarious rudywoofs! Good post. :)

[cheddar]

Thank you AlienS,

The topic of this thread is the validity of 1844 which exists only with a DFAY principle.

Another made up date is 538 AD, I challenge any Adventist to show me that date in a non-adventist history book. It doesn't exist.

There are 7 time periods in Dan. and Rev. that are 1260 days long. If we read thru all 7, they're not all talking about the same thing, yet they're all placed in the same time location.

The two witnesses are a book (old and new testaments). Come on, that has to be the dumbest interpretation of all. Revelation already talks about a bunch of books and it's not the two witnesses and they die in Jerusalem not France!

[ClubV12]

The council of Orleans in 538 is a widely recognized historical fact. Constantines Sunday law started in 508 and was expanded in 538 AD to include a death decree for repeat offenders.

You can question the biblical record all you want, but you can't rewrite history.

William Miller nailed this prophecy, as did many biblical scholars around the world. It's not nearly as complex as many make it out to be. Essentially it's just straight forward math and the historical data of known events. CONFIRMED by the Lords messenger, Ellen White as being correct.

Of course if you deny the Lords messenger, then you deny the confirmation and it's no wonder confusion and dismay are the end result. Good luck with all that...

[BobRyan]

Unfortunately, many have been misled by denominational leaders and preachers into thinking that Last Days events have been occurring over the last several thousand years. Thus, DFAY makes sense to those who believe this way.

If we ignore the denominational propaganda and accept that there is no scriptural proof that one prophetic day = one prophetic year, then we must realize that one prophetic day must = one prophetic day. Therefore, the Last Days are future, and of just a few years duration: 2300/360= 6.39 years, for example.

Interesting "stories" but in the mean time all Christian denominations on the planet pretty much "get the point" that the 70 weeks are 490 days - and using the day for year principle constitue one of the most compelling proofs of Bible prophecy in predicting the first coming of Christ.

This is the "easy part" so not sure why people would even think to imagine some other story when the facts of history already confirm the case.

The SDA position (like many reformers) also applies the 1260 day-for-year principle to Dan 7 and Rev 11, 12, 13. Again this is the "easy part" that others have already figured out as well.

That just leaves us with the "consistent" solution of also using that same rule for Dan 8.

Given that the LENGTH of time covered by the vision that starts with the Medo-Persian empire and goes to some time long after the fall of Greece - 2300 literal days are not even an option.

Just stating the obvious at this point.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Thank you Bob Ryan.

These are the only two Biblical references to any "day for a year" measurement in the entire Bible.

If you notice these two are references that use the "day for a year" measurement for those SPECIFIC INSTANCES ONLY!

You are free to imagine that nobody on the planet notices the obvious day for year fact in Dan 9 where the first coming of Christ is predicted.

I for one - do not choose to ignore that obvious validation of this principle in prophecy as it applies to nations and as we see in the case of the first coming, the wandering in the wilderness and the punishment of Israel.

Numbers 14:34 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years….after the number of the days in which you searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year.

Ezekiel 4:6

"And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."

in Christ,

Bob

[Igakusei]

You are free to imagine that nobody on the planet notices the obvious day for year fact in Dan 9 where the first coming of Christ is predicted.

I for one - do not choose to ignore that obvious validation of this principle in prophecy as it applies to nations and as we see in the case of the first coming, the wandering in the wilderness and the punishment of Israel.

You are free to imagine that Daniel 9 is an obvious pointer towards Christ. There are good reasons the Jews never considered it a Messianic prophecy.

I for one - do not choose to ignore the vast majority of alternate viewpoints.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_Seventy_Weeks#Mainstream_scholarship

[ClubV12]

"There are good reasons the Jews never considered it a Messianic prophecy.

I wouldn't call any of their reasons "good", but they had their reasons.

The "wise men" figured it out, as did many others. They had "good" reasoning on the matter.

I never did put much stock in the reasoning of the "majority" on any anything. Mob rule is not an indicator of truth by a long shot.

[Igakusei]

"There are good reasons the Jews never considered it a Messianic prophecy.

I wouldn't call any of their reasons "good", but they had their reasons.

The "wise men" figured it out, as did many others. They had "good" reasoning on the matter.

I never did put much stock in the reasoning of the "majority" on any anything. Mob rule is not an indicator of truth by a long shot.

Oh, I would never argue that it should be :)

[miz3]

Igakusei,

I read the Wiki article. Some good points were made there.

However, no matter how you slice it the "year/day" Principle is not a valid Principle as far as the Bible is concerned. The Bible does not confirm it in any way shape or form.

If such a Principle did exist in the Bible it would have been made more obvious throughout the Scriptural Record. Given all the "prophetic" data in Daniel, Revelation, and elsewhere God would have made perfectly clear as He has done with many other things that this is the Math Principle by which we should count the Prophetic time periods.

No such counting Principle exists anywhere in Scripture. The only two examples given make it perfectly clear that in these two instances only are a day to count as a year. There is no blanket principle wording anywhere in these two instances or anywhere else in the Bible.

Clarity is clarity. Only the stubborn would argue against such clear demonstrated truth because it suits their preconceived notions. Included are the vain attempts to legitimize the 1844 date.

[Igakusei]

Igakusei,

I read the Wiki article. Some good points were made there.

However, no matter how you slice it the "year/day" Principle is not a valid Principle as far as the Bible is concerned. The Bible does not confirm it in any way shape or form.

If such a Principle did exist in the Bible it would have been made more obvious throughout the Scriptural Record. Given all the "prophetic" data in Daniel, Revelation, and elsewhere God would have made perfectly clear as He has done with many other things that this is the Math Principle by which we should count the Prophetic time periods.

No such counting Principle exists anywhere in Scripture. The only two examples given make it perfectly clear that in these two instances only are a day to count as a year. There is no blanket principle wording anywhere in these two instances or anywhere else in the Bible.

Clarity is clarity. Only the stubborn would argue against such clear demonstrated truth because it suits their preconceived notions. Included are the vain attempts to legitimize the 1844 date.

I couldn't agree more.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

The two witnesses are a book (old and new testaments). Come on, that has to be the dumbest interpretation of all. Revelation already talks about a bunch of books and it's not the two witnesses and they die in Jerusalem not France!

The two witnesses sound a lot like Moses and Elijah, both of whom appeared with Jesus when his father's voice from the sky scared a couple of his disciples witless. Moses and Elijah might be the ones chosen to be the Messiah's assistants, the Two Witnesses, who later explain to the world during the Last Days what the Kingdom of God is all about.

Many fear it, but death is just a journey to the future, a rendezvous with destiny to a time of rapid change and great trouble: the Last Days. Death is nothing to God, who has the ability to re-create, that is, clone, a human any number of times from DNA records and stored memories, using his Spirit.

Alas, our man-made, human religions tend to create constipated minds. We tend to trust too easily some of those who make bold claims about visions from God.

[Igakusei]

Alas, our man-made, human religions tend to create constipated minds. We tend to trust too easily some of those who make bold claims about visions from God.

I know I would be taking you out of context to apply this sentiment across the entire scope of man-made human religions sine you clearly don't believe that, but in my opinion you're on the right track :)

[Aliensanctuary]

All religions are man-made.

The Kingdom of God is not a religion, but more like a business arrangement, or a contract for a job. If we agree to conduct ourselves as respectful, responsible, and obedient members of his Kingdom by carrying out the tasks he assigns us to do that will benefit mankind, then, in the next life, we will receive a great reward, and a job.

[Musicman1228]

All religions are man-made.

The Kingdom of God is not a religion, but more like a business arrangement, or a contract for a job. If we agree to conduct ourselves as respectful, responsible, and obedient members of his Kingdom by carrying out the tasks he assigns us to do that will benefit mankind, then, in the next life, we will receive a great reward, and a job.

This is fabulous, aliensanctuary, and right on.

The Kingdom of Heaven is like a corporate entity; it is a legal structure that is empty until it is filled with a people that will be obedient to the by-laws of the corporation. These by-laws are the structure under which the corporation (Kingdom of Heaven) operates. They are the Covenant of the Kingdom of the Heavens.

And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone. Deut. 4:13.

Ancient Israel was given two opportunities to operate by the by-laws of the corporation of the Kingdom of Heaven, that is, be obedient to the Covenant. They failed both times. The final probationary period in which God gave them the opportunity to fulfill the Covenant ended in 33 AD, after the 490 years of Dan. 9:24 ended. At that time Israel became just like any other nation in the kingdom of the world, they were no longer the Kingdom of Heaven.

At the end of time God will raise up another people that will become the Kingdom that will bear the fruits of the Covenant. That people will accomplish what God designed the Kingdom of Heaven to accomplish (Dan. 2:34, 44-45).

God established the precursor of that Kingdom at the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy in 1844, and confirmed that prophecy with another prophecy in Matt. 25:1-13.

Only those that are obedient to the Covenant (the 5 Wise Bridesmaids) will be in that Kingdom when the door to the wedding rehearsal dinner is closed (the close of probation for the Kingdom of Heaven).

[ClubV12]

The Kingdom of God does not require anything more than believing on Jesus Christ who died that you might be saved. NOTHING else is needed, it is a gift, no strings, no contract, no job required. I accept His sacrafice, that I might live, by faith, because of His great love for me. Anything after that, eternal life, fellowship with heavenly beings, endless travel through the universe, is just icing on the cake.

Meanwhile, in THIS life, I thank God He does have a work for us to do, something to help us grow in the knowledge of Him and His ways. Something to keep us busy and occupied while we wait for His return. That "something" is to take this wonderful message to all the people of the earth.

[skyblue888]

"The kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21.

"The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Rom.14:17.

This is the kingdom of His grace.

It is the will and the good pleasure of the Father to give us His grace, that is, to give us the Kingdom:

"Fear not, little flock; for it is the Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." Luke 12:32.

Therefore, to all who believe from the heart that the merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in their behalf, the commandment is given:

"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." Rev.22:21.

This is the Voice of God speaking to the soul. "He speaks and it is done!" Psalm 33:9. And those who believe immediately respond by saying, "Amen" which means, "It is so" for they know that "He commands and it stands fast." Ps.33:9; Rom.5:1,2; 16:24-26.

And His grace is with them and it is "exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." (1 Tim.2:14) "This is the true grace of God in which we stand". 1 Peter 5:12; Rom.5:2; Acts 4:33.

"Continue in the faith."

sky