Should GC Legal Stop those who impersonate the Church? Yes or No?

[Brother Peter]

When a religious Cooperation or individual flies a lawsuit against someone or another religious body, is this morally correct? Is such thing taking place today? If it is taking place where does this place “the one that is suing” in light of the bible? What does the bible teaches on this subject matter?

[Woody]

Hi Brother Peter.

Yes. I think it is a good thing and totally in line with scripture. I find no fault.

[ClubV12]

What does Ellen White counsel on this issue?

...or do we ignore her counsel because we trust the bible and the bible only and have need of nothing she has to say on the matter.

[Pastor_Chick]

What does Ellen White counsel on this issue?

...or do we ignore her counsel because we trust the bible and the bible only and have need of nothing she has to say on the matter.

Club,

I think you would agree that the Bible and SOP conclude the same for true Christians. The bottom line is Christ prefers that we be defrauded rather than initiate a court action.

This becomes potentially complicated if we do not keep the lines drawn between "criminal" and "civil" issues. The Bible is clear about Caesar's role as God's "minister" against the criminal.

[Brother Peter]

Let us look at what the bible say.1cor 6:1 Dare any of you haveing amatter against another , go to law before the unjust, and not before saints?

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Where in the Bible it tells us that is it OK to take someone to Law. Does doing so represent the spirit of Christ?

[BarbaraLynn]

When a religious Corporation or individual files a lawsuit against someone or another religious body, is this morally correct? ... What does the Bible teach on this subject matter?

Brother Peter,

Regarding a situation that would be a civil matter, I believe that Acts 5:38 &39 apply.

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: Brother Peter

When a religious Corporation or individual files a lawsuit against someone or another religious body, is this morally correct? ... What does the Bible teach on this subject matter?

Brother Peter,

Regarding a situation that would be a civil matter, I believe that Acts 5:38 &39 apply.

"And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

Unfortunately this statement is true only in the light of eternity. On this Earth, God allows all sorts of groups to work against Him. Islam has flourished for nearly 1500 years. Judaism continues, 2000 years after it became irrelevant. Various cults spring up to this very day such as the branch davidians and the creation sda's.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]Various cults spring up to this very day such as the branch davidians and the creation sda's.

Windsor,

I opened a thread just for such a discussion. Maybe you would like to educate us?

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...gious_grou.html

[Light Fox]

Hi Brother Peter.

Yes. I think it is a good thing and totally in line with scripture. I find no fault.

..Wait, seriously? I don't know you well enough to tell if you're being sarcastic or not. :)

[ClubV12]

The question poses two different groups of people:

"...lawsuit against someone or another religious body,.."

1. "someone", a corporation, governement agency, not a member of YOUR church group.

2. "religious body", in which case the "body" may or may not be a member of YOUR church group.

I don't see a problem with suing a corporation, government or group that is not a member of YOUR christian oranization. If the head of that group IS a member in good standing of your church, you cannot sue. The reason I say a "member" of YOUR group or church is because you have to have clear lines of distinction at some point. Otherwise virtually every person on the planet could claim to be "your brother in Christ" if no other reason than to stop you from suing them!

[Light Fox]

Last Post

[ClubV12]

I think she is speaking of fellow church member christians. Where would you draw the line as to who is or isn't a christian? Lots of people could make that claim. In fact, if you were suing me and I know it would stop you, I would claim to be a christian, even if I wasn't!

I offer one solution to that problem, "members" within your church group. Anybody else can make whatever claim they want. They can claim to be Muslim if that will get them out a law suit, or Buhdist or christian or whatever group they want to claim. You HAVE to draw the line somewhere!

[Light Fox]

Why do you believe we have to draw the line somewhere? That is to say... the argument seems to be that if we take it literally to simply mean "don't sue Christians," it would be a horrible thing, because then we, God forbid, couldn't sue people who used it as an excuse.

Here's my take on it - why do you want to sue anyone, true Christian or false, Christian or non? Why would we be willing to be defrauded by a Church member but not others? It seems to me that "Vengeance is mine; I will repay" is not meant to be limited to the local congegation's disputes.

I'd be interested in seeing your answer to the "who is my brother" question as well.

Another potential consideration: What about someone who is disfellowshipped for a doctrinal disagreement and quickly sued by the church thereafter?

[ClubV12]

I do believe it's OK to sue corporations, insurance companies, hospitals, governement agencies, private parties and even your very real "neighbor" who lives next door to you! Guidlines about greed, and suing from a spirit of anger and many other christian "rules" apply at all times to all people.

Following these guidelines of love and christian faith, you may proceed. Paul was not afraid to declare himself a Roman citizen and take advantage of that political standing and the power that came with it. In essence, he was "threatening to sue", or more, if he was not handled according to Roman law!

I think the issue is pretty clear, there is no moral law against suing someone. The question is, can I sue a "christian"? That has to be on a case by case basis. I am not going to assume you are a christian just because you say you are. I am not going to assume you are "my brother" without looking at your "works". Your "fruit of the spirit". If you are taking an active roll against ME and MY fundamental beliefs and you WON'T stop doing me harm, are you a christian? Are you my brother? If you are a christian, then why don't you stop hurting me? If your NOT hurting me, in your view point, and "we" can't reason it out, then the only solution left is "court".

[Light Fox]

It seems that we are encountering a disagreement on this point. In the scenario you are presenting, I believe the only solution left is prayer, not court.

Does anyone have some Scriptures or Inspired writings to help myself and Club sort out this dilemma?

[Brother Peter]

When a church claim to be the "true church" then they have nothing to fear. Why, because the God of heaven is their leader and protector. If on the other hand they go and "Trade Mark" the name and turn to the government for protect of the "church and the Name", they are saying in other words that God cannot protect and guide them, and therefor they must do something about it. They have divorce themselves from the God. They no longer can say that they are the true church.

Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

This is a promise to them that trust in the Lord

[Dr. Shane]

As a rule, one Adventist member should not sue another Adventist member. However there are many exceptions. One such exception would be when insurance companies get involved. If two Adventists get into a car accident with each other and one's insurance company will not pay, one member may need to sue the other in order to make the insurance company pay.

As far as using the trademark name, as long as the person or group using the name is not trying to get members to leave the organized church or trying to compete with the organized church for tithe, I don't see a problem. If they are not "part of us" then they do not have the right to use our name and the church has as much to rely on the civil government to enforce trademark law as it relies on civil government to prevent thieves from breaking in our doors.

Adventists are free to sue Christians from other denominations because there is no means for remedy from the church. If there is a dispute between Adventists, they can take the issue before the church and settle it. That option is not available for a dispute between and Adventist and a Pentecostal or member of some other such denomination.

[Scion]

Quote:

I do believe it's OK to sue corporations, insurance companies, hospitals, governement agencies, private parties and even your very real "neighbor" who lives next door to you! Guidlines about greed, and suing from a spirit of anger and many other christian "rules" apply at all times to all people.

I'm sorry to see you taking this position, Club. You posted some good, Biblical principles about tests of a prophet on another thread, disregarding traditions and so on to just go with what the Bible says. Even without Ellen White, I think it's pretty clear what Christ taught about His followers initiating lawsuits of any kind. In fact, that is one of the reasons I've posted so often (for me) in the 1896 Sabbath School thread... because I see a very similar kind of thinking happening there as well, regardless of what people think about certain participants in the conversation. But I think Adventists have an even more clear set of instructions if you add in Ellen White's writings... she doesn't say (if I remember) anything about who it is appropriate or inappropriate to sue. She just says not to put our dependence on worldly lawyers. The target seems to be a secondary issue, if it is mentioned at all.

I am not from the U.S., but I lived there for a while, and I have to confess that I find a lot of the lawsuit-culture that I see going on there in the news and so on to be bizarre... and really out of harmony with what I find in the New Testament principles for Christian behavior. I would rather suffer wrong (from corporations, insurance companies, etc.) than take someone to court. I believe that God will supply my needs without having to resort to professionals whose job it is to twist evidence around in a way favorable to their clients. I don't see any of that in Jesus' teachings. What do you think?

[Scion]

Quote:

Adventists are free to sue Christians from other denominations because there is no means for remedy from the church.

Can I get a Bible quote or Spirit of Prophecy reference for this principle? Thanks :)

[ClubV12]

It is a complex issue, and like Q says, "we" are at an impasse on reconciling our views. Not harm or foul intended there, just recognizing reality.

We DO agree that all christian principles, no anger, no greed, no spite, a sincere effort to reconcile have to be in place first.

I agree with Shane, when it comes to suing members outside of your immediate church. When there is no other realistic remedy offered within either of the two churches involved. Doesn't have to be SDA, it could be a Mormon suing a Jehovah Witness because neither will negotiate with the other "non-believer".

From what I've seen of Ellen Whites counsel it is not clear to me that suing a "non-believer" (not a member of YOUR church) is off the table. In other words, I see no direct and clear counsel that says, "don't sue" a non-believer. Like the bible, Ellen Whites counsel is usually up for interpretation and debate on many points. I DO take her counsel very seriously, as I do the bible, in determing what God wants me to do in any particular.

As it concerns the CSDA brethren the issue gets confused because that group accepts many of the same principles and appears to be closely aligned with SDA. However, SDA "authority" can hire and fire ministers. It can remove a member from the church record. It retains the ability to discipline where/when required. And apparently, to use civil, or even criminal, force when required if all else fails. While it's troubling, I'm not prepared to say it's wrong at this point.

[Scion]

Maybe, but I'm not talking about the CSDA church or any other specific... I think you and Shane are both saying something like "When there's no other choice," and "We have to deal with reality." But there's always another choice. But God defines what "reality" is. Christ told us what the other choice was, didn't He? We can pray like we believe that God truly defends His people. That's the reality.

You said:

Quote:

From what I've seen of Ellen Whites counsel it is not clear to me that suing a "non-believer" (not a member of YOUR church) is off the table.

Ok, then let me ask you the most cliche, overused, commercialized question I can think of, and maybe that will give you my thoughts on this: "What would Jesus do?"

Do you really think that the One who wouldn't even quench a smoking flax, or break a bruised reed, would say this is ok? Because really, that's the only thing that matters. And if you can help Shane out with a Bible verse or Spirit of Prophecy quote to support anything other than this, I'd like to see it. As you said, no hard feelings or anything... but I'm really concerned, because I'm a long-time believer that even if the court systems weren't as corrupt as they are, and even if you couldn't just buy justice if you were connected and rich enough, starting a lawsuit and asking the Second Beast of Revelation to back you up is really not something I can harmonize with the Adventist lifestyle.

I think if you find it troubling, at least you sort of see what I'm saying. The people at the head of a Church (any Christian church!) should represent Jesus to the best of their abilities, and administrate just as He would. It is one thing to discipline within the Church (removing ministers and all that is fine, and there is Biblical precedent for it... that's sort of my point). But once they go from the Church's organization, the Bible seems to say, "Leave them alone."

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

...I'm really concerned, because I'm a long-time believer...

I am really glad that I have better things to be worried about. The Bible establishes principles and I live my life according to them. The Bible was not written when there were democratic-republics ruling much of the world. It was not written when there were over 500 Christian denominations. It was written before modern technology, protection of intellectual property, women's rights and anti-slavery laws. Yet it still establishes principles I am able to use to govern my life. So as a long-time believer I am not troubled at all about what is right and wrong in regard to suing other people.

[Brother Peter]

If they are not "part of us" then they do not have the right to use our name and the church has as much to rely on the civil government to enforce trademark law as it relies on civil government to prevent thieves from breaking in our doors.

The bible is filled with answers to all your needs. What saith the scriptures on how we must treat those who are not a part of the SDA church That is using a similar name?

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

ct 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,

Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

[ClubV12]

Forgiveness and love are separate issues from punishment and consequences. God loved David and forgave him. But David paid a horrific price for his sin's, and he paid it the rest of his life. That was the consequence.

One can sue another, even with tears in his eyes and forgivenss on his lips, but still, sometimes you just gotta take action.

What would Jesus do? He might walk in and overturn the tables and chash everyone out of the temple. He might be very harsh in dealing with someone to HELP them understand the error of their way.

Love, mercy, forgiveness does not preclude punishment and consequences.

[Stan]

maybe it is just me.... but I think this still has credibility

New International Version (©1984)

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

For other versions

http://bible.cc/hebrews/13-17.htm

What does one do, or demand our leaders to do, is someone imitates the Seventh-day Adventist Church and is not one? Surly a start up church can pick a name that is not already taken.

How hard is that to reason with?