Should GC Legal Stop those who impersonate the Church? Yes or No?

[ClubV12]

I think it is in Acts of the Apostles chapter 29, possbily 30, where Paul is dealing with "law suits" within the church. Where he says, (paraphrase) "know you not that we shall judge angels?" If we are to judge angels how simple it should be to judge things among the church members. Now "members" is the key word here. Sister White expands on what Paul is saying and applies it specifically to church "members".

I know you have to be careful in interpreting EGW by what she does NOT say, or SEEMS to imply. We see that far to often and to often it is far from the message she intended! So cautiously I submit: She (and Paul) are "implying" a law suit against those who are NOT "members" is acceptable.

I mention the laws of Moses only to show that proper respect for civil laws has been a basic function of society, secular and religious, for 1,000's of years (at least). As to the "don't hold a poor mans coat after sundown" principle, I believe that is valid today! Don't take advantage of the poor, don't charge them interest in some cases, don't hold onto things they need for collateral, don't sue them to their last dime and cast them into prison,,, uh, might also be included in that concept! As to the poor, these principles likely apply no matter how "detestable" and "ungodly" they may be (in your eyes anyway)?

The laws of Moses simply expanded on the 10 commandments. I see Ellen Whites work in much the same way, expanding and detailing the 10 commandments in a way that our society can understand them and incorporate them in our life.

[Israfel]

"Church and State are to be kept separate."

Amen to this statement of Truth Sky.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

Don't take advantage of the poor, [...] don't sue them to their last dime and cast them into prison,,, uh, might also be included in that concept! As to the poor, these principles likely apply no matter how "detestable" and "ungodly" they may be (in your eyes anyway)?

[...]

Now, what measuring stick are you going to use for defining "the poor"? Would $700 per month qualify?

Then, many will say, "Oh, he (or she) is crying 'poor' to avoid a lawsuit."

What it boils down to is LOVE. "Love is the fulfilling of the law." (period!) You cannot do ill to your "neighbor" when you love.

And again, "civil laws" can be separated into "criminal" and "civil" in nature. In the "criminal" arena, we surely have no debate.

It is the category of "civil disputes" that becomes complicated when "religious intellectual property rights" are concerned.

I keep reading/hearing about how CSDA is "stealing" the name "from" SDA. They should be "punished" for "stealing."

The most extreme accusation would be "borrowing," but that does not even fit. Real property that is *taken FROM* someone is a "crime." Property that is "borrowed" without permission is actually "stealing."

Law enforcement NEVER had a problem with what CSDA did with their name. IN FACT, for 17 years, the GC of SDA never expressed a problem for CSDA to use the name on the Internet and on several church houses in the United States. SO, what about the INTERNATONAL "good will" and "reputation" we established over the 17 years of using OUR name? Who is being harmed here? The GC acquiesced for 17 years and then said, "No, you might defraud us or confuse some consumers, so now we are going to forbid you our trade name." Is that really "balanced"? I am trying to lean to your side as far as I can. But, I am NOT going to fall off the platform.

Do you know what the GC attorney was demanding from CSDA? It was called "limited discovery." They want to know every member's name, assets, bank accounts, etc. AND, more than that, they want to know the same information for our friends and family members -- anyone who MIGHT be willing to assist us in any way. Why not read Dr. David Aguilar's testimony here:

http://pastorwalterchickmcgilllawsuit.net/victims_of_policy.html

There merely NEVER was ANY problem. NOTHING was done to HARM anyone! IF someone WAS "suffering loss" because of me using a specific "religious name identity," MAYBE, just MAYBE you could prick my conscience.

This is like a "straw man." OR, even worse -- "modern spiritualism."

[Brother Peter]

I concur with you Pastor Chick.

Many a people are putting their heads in the sand like the astrige hoping that the the truth will pass them by. But the next time they take their heads out of the sand they will be facing the judgment Of Christ

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I concur with you Pastor Chick.

Many a people are putting their heads in the sand like the astrige hoping that the the truth will pass them by. But the next time they take their heads out of the sand they will be facing the judgment Of Christ

Astrige? No...I will not go there...

[Pastor_Chick]

Anyone who initiates a lawsuit within a religious context is following "worldly policy."

Let us read a sampling of inspired comments respecting "worldly policy."

The policy which worldly businessmen adopt is not the policy to be chosen and carried out by the men who are connected with our institutions. (5T 561) [That would include trademarks; and the whole reason for registering the church name was to stop the SDA Kinship, and that one failed in court.]

But worldly policy has a short range of vision. It can see the object nearest at hand, but fails to discover those at a distance. It is ever watching for opportunities to gain advantage. Those who follow a course of worldly policy are building themselves up by pulling out the foundation from another man's building. (PM 83)

But how many who claim to be his followers concede to a worldly policy! This is because their hearts are not filled with love for the truth. God's purpose in committing to men and women the mission that he committed to Christ, is to separate his followers from worldly policy. (RH 06-16-04)

When worldly policy and worldly ideas govern our transactions we cannot stand on the high and holy platform of eternal truth. (LDE 116)

Formality, worldly wisdom, worldly caution, worldly

policy, will appear to many to be the very power of God, but when accepted, it stands as an obstacle to prevent God's light in warnings, reproof, and counsel from coming to the world. (2SM 19)

From the soul temple of a worldly Christian, God is

excluded, in order that worldly policy may have abundant room. Money is his god. (CS 223) [Lawsuits, such as the trademark lawsuits, are all about money. See the GC lawsuit against the USA. http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/02/04/Adventists_Sue_Uncle_Sam_Over_Trademark.htm]

No man can serve two masters. If you try to serve the world and the Lord at the same time, the result will be that worldly policy and worldly schemes will become supreme in your life. (MM 115)

Never forsake the true standard, even though to cling to it makes you a beggar. God has set up a high standard of righteousness. He has made a plain distinction between human and divine wisdom. All who work on Christ's side must work to save, not to destroy. Worldly policy is not to become the policy of the servants of God. (MM 132)

The work of God will be greatly marred if left in the hands of men who reason from their own human judgment. Self comes in, and traits of character that are not in accordance with the character of Christ put their impression on the work. A worldly policy is regarded as wise, while the divine policy, singular in the eyes of the world, is thought to be foolishness. A mark will thus be left on the work which will not appear objectionable, but which will receive God's disapproval. (Lt 26, 1899)

Life insurance is a worldly policy which leads our brethren who engage in it to depart from the simplicity and purity of the gospel. (1T 550)

Arouse the people to see how far they have departed

from the Lord's ordinances by adopting worldly policy and conforming to worldly principles. These have brought them into transgression of God's law. (6T 54)

The work of God is a great work. Wise men are needed, to keep Bible principles free from a particle of worldly policy. (Ev 213)

Some will be honest when it costs nothing; but when policy will pay best, honesty is forgotten. Honesty and policy will not work together in the same mind. In time, either policy will be expelled, and truth and honesty reign supreme, or, if policy is cherished, honesty will be forgotten. They are never in agreement; they have nothing in common. One is the prophet of Baal, the other is the true prophet of God. (LHU 287)

There are many who would scorn the appellation of policy men, yet who will stoop to concealment, evasion, and even misrepresentation, to accomplish their purposes. He who, in a matter of right and wrong, remains noncommittal that he may retain the friendship of all; he who seeks to secure by evasion of truth what should be won by courage; he who waits for others to take the lead, when he should go forward himself, and then feels at liberty to censure their course,--all these are in God's sight numbered as deceivers. (ST 08-04-81)

If you do not think "worldly policy" is the instigating force behind lawsuits, just read a few legal briefs. Lies and misrepresentations are the default features -- any and all fabrications to cast your defendant in the worst possible light.

The Word of God, referring to "Seventh-day Adventists" who are to be translated without seeing death, says, "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Rev. 14:5)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

You know, in the Bible, there IS a book.... called.... "Judges"...

[skyblue888]

If you do not think "worldly policy" is the instigating force behind lawsuits, just read a few legal briefs. Lies and misrepresentations are the default features -- any and all fabrications to cast your defendant in the worst possible light.

The Word of God, referring to "Seventh-day Adventists" who are to be translated without seeing death, says, "And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Rev. 14:5)

Pastor Chick

_________________________________

I am with you on that.

And that would explain why the Lord was continually warning our people:

"The high-handed power that has been developed, as though position has made men gods, makes me afraid and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result." T.M.361.

"Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God, will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile (worldly policy) will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and the advancement of the kingdom of God. Whatever in our practice is not as open as day belongs to the methods of the prince of evil. His methods are practiced even among Seventh-day Adventists, who claim to have advanced truth." Ibid, 366. *parenthesis supplied

In 1903 the leaders of the General Conference put God aside and accepted the devisings of men. In 1901 they had accepted to put the devisings of men aside and to allow God to be Head over all things in the church.

The devisings of men: constitution with by-laws, policy book, resolutions, elections, hierarchy, church manuals, etc etc This order of things has been allowed to continue until now.

In 1903, Mrs. White said that we had become so much like the world (governments of the world) that no difference could be seen.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

You know, in the Bible, there IS a book.... called.... "Judges"...

[skyblue888]

And we know that the nominal churches are seeking to establish a theocracy in these last days. But it will only be a false one.

sky

[Windsor]

Anyone who needlessly provokes someone to a lawsuit within a religious context is following "worldly policy."

Do you really think God wants you to waste years and years of your life in bitterness because you were caught stealing from God's church? Would he want you to waste your life constantly complaining about this even if he wanted you to steal? How many people have you brought to Christ by being angry that you couldn't do something as seemingly pointless as getting first choice on the name you want for your church? How many people have you turned away?

[Israfel]

Wind,

what is the policy behind your reasoning?

We know that we are dealing with Principles here.

God is the one that has granted pardon and mercy to his creation and called them to walk according to his Light, shall they decide to have their own way and still be in his favor?

Who sinned in 1881 and subsequently taking church members to court because they refuse to be dictated by worldly policies but rather holding firm to principles, that their conscience and God should dictate to them to do otherwise?

[Brother Peter]

Anyone who needlessly provokes someone to a lawsuit within a religious context is following "worldly policy."

"As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power." {RH, November 5, 1903 par. 12}

Amid the temptations that abound in these last days, some will depart from the faith. Those who have been trying to quench their thirst at broken cisterns, which can hold no water, will have a misleading message to proclaim.

They will speak smooth things. It is now, just now, that genuine gospel medical missionary work is to be done by men who acknowledge Christ as their Master; who realize, as did Elijah and Jeremiah, that they hold their commission from God, and that they are accountable to God for the use made of the talents entrusted to them. God's workers are to acknowledge no earthly master. One higher than men, even he who is the way, the truth, and the life, is their Master. {RH, November 5, 1903 par. 13}

Men are needed who can speak intelligently of the sacredness and the importance of the truth; men who can point their fellow men to the needs of the present hour; men who have an inspiring message to bear against perverted principle; who watch for souls as they that must give an account, pointing souls to God's standard of righteousness. {RH, November 5, 1903 par. 14}

Many who have known the truth, but who have not cherished its principles in their hearts, will become leavened with evil. This evil they do not discern. In word and act they say, "Speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits." We are now to call things by their right names. No longer are we to look upon unrighteousness as righteousness.

Let every one now be prepared to lift up the standard of truth. We are to have no fellowship with the worldly practises that have perverted the faith of some who have enjoyed great privileges, and who should now be standing on vantage-ground. {RH, November 5, 1903 par. 15}

We are to respond to God's call to take a decided stand for truth and righteousness. No longer are we to bind up with worldly elements. The leaders in God's work are not to be men who do not know God, who have no experimental knowledge of God. They are to be men who love and fear God and Christ; otherwise, they must be relieved of their responsibilities.

The Children Israel were leavened and drunk with the wine of the world back then that they could not accepted the Son of God and the message he bear. Today Spiritual Israel are so polluted with the wine of the world that they call truth, darkness and Trade Marking the name, Suing someone, Guile and wickedness they call them righteousness and self protection.

_________________________

Bro. P

[Pastor_Chick]

Anyone who needlessly provokes someone to a lawsuit within a religious context is following "worldly policy."

Do you really think God wants you to waste years and years of your life in bitterness because you were caught stealing from God's church? Would he want you to waste your life constantly complaining about this even if he wanted you to steal? How many people have you brought to Christ by being angry that you couldn't do something as seemingly pointless as getting first choice on the name you want for your church? How many people have you turned away?

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

Anyone who needlessly provokes someone to a lawsuit within a religious context is following "worldly policy."

Do you really think God wants you to waste years and years of your life in bitterness because you were caught stealing from God's church? Would he want you to waste your life constantly complaining about this even if he wanted you to steal? How many people have you brought to Christ by being angry that you couldn't do something as seemingly pointless as getting first choice on the name you want for your church? How many people have you turned away?

Originally Posted By: EGW

Falsehood and deception of every cast is sin against the God of truth and verity. The word of God is plain upon these points. Ye shall not "deal falsely, neither lie one to another." "All liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." God is a God of sincerity and truth. The word of God is a book of truth. Jesus is a faithful and true witness. The church is the witness and ground of the truth. All the precepts of the Most High are true and righteous altogether. How, then, must prevarication and any exaggeration or deception appear in His sight? (4T 336)

Exaggeration and fraud and falsehood are largely dealt in, in the world; but shall those who profess to believe the truth, do unrighteousness? Shall they gather the pollution that everywhere exists, and identify themselves with those who, although they are termed upright men, are evil-doers? He who looks upon the heart, and cannot behold sin with any degree of allowance, will not countenance hypocrisy in those who claim to be his children. The reason why many more do not embrace the truth is that those who claim to believe, do not act upon the plain, direct lessons of Christ. (RH 12-19-93)

It sounds like you're quoting a testimony against yourself for you have defrauded and made many false claims against God's remnant church.

[Stan]

Pastor Chick

I have read your responses a few times... let me give some back ground.

PICTURE THIS

A struggling small Adventist Church in southern BC Canada.

They have a community outreach and various other activities, have a burden to bring the 3 Angeles Messages to their community.

Some of your members, Canadian, rent another Church, put up a sign SEVENTH-DY ADVENTIST CHURCH.

The leach off of all the good work the Adventist Church is doing, and most of their literature is not uplifting Christ but rather your literature on how the GC in Silver Spring now has the Mark of the Beast?

The are leaching off of the good name of the Adventist Church, Taking advantage of the hard work and money of those who went before us.

AND BTW, they did not get the mark of the beast just because the courts and the law sided with them.

Sure Alan may have agreed with you, I have found to him to be wrong in other things as well, and I do admire 98% of the work he does. I do agree the GC legal have gone after some people that were in what I call "a grey area of ownership" that I do not think they had a right too. BUT a name that impersonates the good name of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, I back them 100% and SO SHOULD YOU.

Wally and I have had a conversation in the past regarding your visit, and I do not think he would recall this the meeting the same way you do. AND I doubt very seriously he changed jobs over this.

From your websites I would view your message as not taking the 3 angeles message to the world but rather you wanting attention by taking on the GC.

NOW having said that, what can be done to get you another name, and have you move forward? AS I said, I would be willing to pay those expenses. AND if that is successful, maybe we could even work out something with the GC.

Stan

[Israfel]

Wind,

what is the policy behind your reasoning?

We know that we are dealing with Principles here.

God is the one that has granted pardon and mercy to his creation and called them to walk according to his Light, shall they decide to have their own way and still be in his favor?

Who sinned in 1981 and subsequently taking church members to court because they refuse to be dictated by worldly policies but rather holding firm to principles, that their conscience and God should dictate to them to do otherwise?

Correction of 1881 for 1981

[Brother Peter]

NOW having said that, what can be done to get you another name, and have you move forward? AS I said, I would be willing to pay those expenses. AND if that is successful, maybe we could even work out something with the GC.

Stan

In every generation God has sent his servants to rebuke sin, both in the world and in the church. But the people desire smooth things spoken to them, and the pure, unvarnished truth is not acceptable. Many reformers, in entering upon their work, determined to exercise great prudence in attacking the sins of the church and the nation.

They hoped, by the example of a pure Christian life, to lead the people back to the doctrines of the Bible. But the Spirit of God came upon them as it came upon Elijah, moving him to rebuke the sins of a wicked king and an apostate people; they could not refrain from preaching the plain utterances of the Bible,—doctrines which they had been reluctant to present.

In amazement they hear the testimony that Babylon is the church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from Heaven. As the people go to their former teachers with the eager inquiry, Are these things so? the ministers present fables, prophesy smooth things, to soothe their fears, and quiet the awakened conscience.

But since many refuse to be satisfied with the mere authority of men, and demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord,” the popular ministry, like the Pharisees of old, filled with anger as their authority is questioned, will denounce the message as of Satan, and stir up the sin-loving multitudes to revile and persecute those who proclaim it. {GC88 606.2}

As the controversy extends into new fields, and the minds of the people are called to God's down-trodden law, Satan is astir. The power attending the message will only madden those who oppose it. The clergy will put forth almost superhuman efforts to shut away the light, lest it should shine upon their flocks. By every means at their command they will endeavor to suppress the discussion of these vital questions. The church appeals to the strong arm of civil power, and in this work, papists and Protestants unite.

As the movement for Sunday enforcement becomes more bold and decided, the law will be invoked against commandment-keepers. They will be threatened with fines and imprisonment, and some will be offered positions of influence, and other rewards and advantages, as inducements to renounce their faith. But their steadfast answer is, “Show us from the Word of God our error,”—the same plea that was made by [color:#3333FF]Luther under similar circumstances.[/b]

Those who are arraigned before the courts make a strong vindication of the truth, and some who hear them are led to take their stand to keep all the commandments of God[/u]d. Thus light will be brought before thousands who otherwise would know nothing of these truths. {GC88 607.1}

Conscientious obedience to the Word of God will be treated as rebellion. Blinded by Satan, the parent will exercise harshness and severity toward the believing child; the master or mistress will oppress the commandment-keeping servant. Affection will be alienated; children will be disinherited, and driven from home. The words of Paul will be literally fulfilled, “All that will live godly in Christ Jesus

608

shall suffer persecution.” [2 Timothy 3:12.]

The inspired words are not wrong How can it? I trust that eyesalve is still being given out to those who are seeking for it in these last days.

[Stan]

Ever notice when folks talk about the wheat and the tares.. they view them self as the wheat? Or similar conversations?

What is your last name Peter?

[Pastor_Chick]

Pastor Chick[...]

PICTURE THIS

A struggling small Adventist Church in southern BC Canada.

They have a community outreach and various other activities, have a burden to bring the 3 Angeles Messages to their community.

Some of your members, Canadian, rent another Church, put up a sign SEVENTH-DY ADVENTIST CHURCH.

[Stan]

Show me that you are a Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Your member or members in Cawson were milking the good work and name that real Adventist Church build up over the years.

It is a lazy way, and unchristian to do what you do.

If you think I am trying to become your God, you have other serious problems.

[skyblue888]

Yah Our Righteousness!!!

Wow that name sounds like the company I met in California some years ago. "The Lord Our Righteousness."

They were claiming that they had stopped sinning.

Not that I do not believe that it is possible to stop sinning but that if anyone is not sinning he will be the last one to let others know about it. In fact he will be unconscious of it. See The Sanctified Life, p.13.

sky

[Stan]

I just do not see where you would have had any of these issues if you would not be impersonating the Adventist Church.

Why not do ministry instead?

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

Your member or members in Cawson were milking the good work and name that real Adventist Church build up over the years.

It is a lazy way, and unchristian to do what you do.

[..]

Stan,

I really want to avoid any "name-calling" (excuse the potential for pun). I do wish to examine some meanings of your words. All of us need to understand without a fog.

1) "milking": Give me some better language to describe what ACTUALLY took place in Cawston.

2) "a lazy way": What exactly are you putting that "label" on?

As an aside, I noticed the thread has changed names. I suppose that is at the discretion of the admin?

[skyblue888]

This is part of the confusion the enemy is seeking to create among us because he knows that amid the confusing cries will be borne a special testimony, a special message of truth appropriate for this time, which message is to be received, believed, and acted upon. See 7 B.C.984. When that message is presented, even in demonstration of the Spirit and power of God, the majority of adventists will resist it believing that it is another deception from the enemy.

sky