Salvation Lost?

June 10, 2011

Quote:

James 2 also quotes the commandments saying "He who is guilty of one is guilty of all".

Right, you break one you've had it....And you have!

That is the view of God's law from the POV of the lost person.

In that context - you are correct.

Most people understand that POV very well.

in Christ,

Bob

June 10, 2011

New covenant commandments supersede any found in the old covenant.

People who insist on keeping the ten commandments and being under the old covenant can't pick and choose - they need to do the whole thing.

Hint - Jer 31:33 is before the cross and here we see that the New Covenant puts the Law of God on the heart. (As Heb 8 points out).

it is the SAME Law - but a different location. Instead of being just external (as is the case for the Old Covenant and sinful lost humanity today and in the OT as well) it is under the New Covenant written on the heart-- as is the case for the New Covenant and the new creation saints today and also in the OT as well.)

Same law --

Different location under the New Covenant of the Old Testament.

Read Jer 31.

in Christ,

Bob

June 10, 2011

I am sorry BobRyan but karl is NOT CORRECT!

Those texts he cited do not say that Faith came first. They only say that Justification and Faith are there. It does not say in what sequence those elements occur.

Like I pointed out and Sonny has pointed Romans chapter five gives the sequence and that sequence says:

Justification First.......Faith Second!

June 10, 2011

There is no such thing in the Bible as "justified but not saved"

Rom 10

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The righteousness of Christ that we receive as a result of true Belief in Christ is in fact Justification.

If you travel by walking - you did not first travel and then walk,

If you fly by airplane - you did not first fly and then get in the plane.

If you are trying to be justified by works - you are not first justified and then do works.

If you are seeking to be justified by faith - you are not first justfied without faith and then later justified by faith.

in Christ,

Bob

June 10, 2011

Either you have "faith" in Jesus Christ's finished work or you REJECT (distrust, unbelief, lack faith) in Jesus Christ's finished work.

Bingo!

June 10, 2011

See, this is why you need good sources and counsel to arrive at a balanced understaning of the "law" and "faith". While you can "get it" from the bible alone, frankly, for most of us, we need help in understanding what we are reading.

Like the Ethiopian did, he read and read and read, but he couldn't quite grasp it. So, the Lord sent him some help in Phillip!

The Lord has also provided us help for today, in Ellen White. Trust Him cheddar, He has provided another source to help you understand the word. Don't reject it.

And the Lord sends others to help us understand the writings of Ellen White.

sky :)

June 10, 2011

There is no such thing in the Bible as "justified but not saved"

Keep ignoring what I've presented, but it still is there.

Romans 5:18 [NASB] So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ as the 2nd Adam] there resulted justification of life to all men.

Eph 2:5 ...even when we were dead in our transgressions [lost & God's enemies], [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and [God] raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Col 1:13 For He [God] rescued us from the domain of darkness [this world], and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son [Jesus], 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

See God doesn't look at you as a child of Adam. The descendants of Adam belong to a lost, condemned, sinful race. God sees you as you're in His Son, Jesus Christ.

That's because in Him you have a glorified humanity free from mortality and sin.

Ellen White:

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God’s Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in him” (Col 2:10). Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

June 10, 2011

"The sinner is justified through the merits of Jesus." F.W.107

But unless the sinner looks to Jesus and accept His merits which it is His privilege to claim, he cannot be saved.

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." T.M.93.

These are divine commentaries upon the Word of the Lord. These declarations are divine oracles. They tell us what we must do to be saved.

Either we accept them or reject them. There is mo middle ground.

sky

June 10, 2011

There is no such thing in the Bible as "justified but not saved"

Rom 10

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The righteousness of Christ that we receive as a result of true Belief in Christ is in fact Justification.

If you travel by walking - you did not first travel and then walk,

If you fly by airplane - you did not first fly and then get in the plane.

If you are trying to be justified by works - you are not first justified and then do works.

If you are seeking to be justified by faith - you are not first justfied without faith and then later justified by faith.

Paul never writes "you have been justified - but not by faith - so now you need to be saved".

In this list of texts Paul is talking about justification being available - he is not saying that all the world is justified or that all the wicked are justified presently.

Romans 5:18 [NASB] So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ as the 2nd Adam] there resulted justification of life to all men.

Eph 2:5 ...even when we were dead in our transgressions [lost & God's enemies], [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and [God] raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Col 1:13 For He [God] rescued us from the domain of darkness [this world], and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son [Jesus], 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

There are some creative efforts to bend texts like the above where not one of them actually says "the wicked are justified but not saved so now they need to accept salvation."

Inserting that implication into those texts only works in a Calvinist model.

If you want proof of this fact - look at Eph 2,

Eph 2:5 ...even when we were dead in our transgressions [lost & God's enemies], [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and [God] raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

The lost are not in heaven.

The lost are not saved or even pre-saved.

The lost are not sitting next to God with Jesus.

All of this is the potential of the benefit that is offerred them IF they choose to accept it just a Abram was the father of many nations while as yet he had no children... but only IF he should choose daily to walk with God.

The Lost will surely be seated in the lake of fire.. not saved, not with Christ if they do not accept salvation.

in Christ,

Bob

June 10, 2011

There are some creative efforts to bend a few texts that do not say that - and try to get them to imply it... but those efforts do not work...

Then you are rejecting the gospel, which is at the least very dangerous!

June 10, 2011

If rejecting things the Bible never says is rejecting the Gospel - then I suggest you are chasing "another gospel".

There is no such thing as "Justified but not by faith" in the Bible.

There is no such thing as "justified but still lost" in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

June 10, 2011

If rejecting things the Bible never says is rejecting the Gospel - then I suggest you are chasing "another gospel".

No sir, it is you presenting 'another gospel.' You are making faith & works the Savior. This is the same gospel taught by the Judaizers of Paul's day. Nothing much has changed.

June 10, 2011

DblEspresso,

Are you still here? I hope so....The works folks come out and divert from your post. And I get lost trying to defend justification by faith. Anyway, God loves you....Every time you fall you don't lose your salvation. Just listen your conscience, because the Spirit dwells in your inner mind (the spirit of man). God loves you more than Himself. So when you've looked at porn get up and acknowledge your sin. God will forgive you 70 x 7, which means He will always accept you. You aren't lost when you sin, because all of us are in state of sin. That is, we aren't living His life. However, we do want to grow to be more like Christ. You do this by keeping your faith in Him. In Him you are complete!!!!

June 10, 2011

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

If rejecting things the Bible never says is rejecting the Gospel - then I suggest you are chasing "another gospel".

No sir, it is you presenting 'another gospel.' You are making faith & works the Savior. This is the same gospel taught by the Judaizers of Paul's day. Nothing much has changed.

miz3

__________________________

Faith works and it works the works of God. It works by love, the love of God brought into the life through exercising faith in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

"God will accept everyone that comes to Him trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified Saviour. Love springs up in the heart. There may be no ecstasy of feeling but there is an abiding, peaceful trust." 1 S.M.354.

The love of God springs up in the heart because the sinner comes to God just as he is, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of the world's Redeemer.

And "Love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom.13:10.

It is the fulfillment of the law because it is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God.

"Righteousness is love." M.B.18.

sky

In and of themselves these good works have no merit toward our salvation for it is the merits of Christ alone that will avail with God.

June 10, 2011

"Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits..."

Somebody at church commented the other day about how nice it was that I understood righteouness by faith. I was rather surprised and quickly explained that I didn't fully understand it. It's an idea that continues to grow as I struggle to find different ways to express it. As simple as it is, it is also a wonderful mystery, of Gods love.

I think it is the kind of subject we can dwell on and find new insight to for an eternity. His righteouness, for me, now thats amazing!

June 10, 2011

"Righteousness is love." M.B.18.sky

Right, the Greek word "agape"

June 10, 2011

Unless he makes it his lifebusiness to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits WHICH IT IS HIS PRIVILEGE TO CLAIM, the sinner cannot be saved.

sky

June 10, 2011

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

"Righteousness is love." M.B.18.sky

Right, the Greek word "agape"

Agape or not, it is the love of God which is shed abroad in the hearts (Rom.5:5) of all who come to God trusting wholly in the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour. Rom.3:25.

"Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God." M.B.18. And "The life of God in the soul is man's only hope." M.H.115.

sky :)

June 10, 2011

And "The love that Christ diffuses through the whole being is a vitalizing power. Every vital part--the heart, the brain, the nerves, it touches with healing. By it the highest energies of the being are roused to activity. If frees the soul from the guilt and sorrow, the anxiety and care that crush the life forces. With it come serenity and composure. It implants in the soul, joy that nothing earthly can destroy,--joy in the Holy Spirit, health-giving, life-giving joy." M.H.115.

That love is the Holy Spirit who works in us both to will and to do God's good pleasure simply because we trust wholly in the merits of Christ for our justification and sanctification.

This is our life business.

sky

June 10, 2011

Agape or not, it is the love of God....

No, no, no, you can's dismiss agape. The Bible states that God is agape. If you don't know what agape is then you don't know God.

June 10, 2011

Are you filled with sorrow today? Fasten your eyes on the Sun of righteousness. Do not try to adjust all the difficulties, but turn your face to the light, to the throne of God. What will you see there? The rainbow of the covenant, the living promise of God. Beneath it is the mercy seat, and whosoever avails himself of the provisions of mercy that have been made and appropriates the merits of the life and death of Christ has in the rainbow of the covenant a blessed assurance of acceptance with the Father as long as the throne of God endures. {2MCP 462.1}

Faith is what you need. Do not let faith waver. Fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life. It will be a severe fight, but fight it at any cost, for the promises of God are yea and amen in Christ Jesus. Put your hand in the hand of Christ. There are difficulties to be overcome, but angels that excel in strength will cooperate with the people of God. Face Zion, press your way to the city of solemnities. A glorious crown and a robe woven in the loom of heaven await the overcomer. Though Satan would cast his hellish shadow athwart your pathway and seek to hide from your view the mystic ladder that stretches from earth to the throne of God, on which ascend and descend the angels who are ministering spirits to those who shall be heirs of salvation, yet press your way upward, plant your feet on one round after another, and advance to the throne of the Infinite.--Und MS 23. {2MCP 462.2}

"The blood of Jesus is pleading with power and efficacy for those who are back-slidden, for those who are rebellious, for those who sin against great light and love. Satan stands at our right hand to accuse us, and our Advocate stands at God's right hand to plead for us. He has never lost a case that has been committed to Him. We may trust in our Advocate; for He pleads His own merits in our behalf. Hear His prayer before His betrayal and trial. Listen to His prayer for us; for He had us in remembrance. {7BC 948.5}

He will not forget His church in the world of temptation. He looks upon His tried and suffering people, and prays for them. . . . Yes, He beholds His people in this world, which is a persecuting world, and all seared and marred with the curse, and [He] knows that they need all the divine resources of His sympathy and His love. Our Forerunner hath for us entered within the veil, and yet by the golden chain of love and truth, He is linked with His people in closest sympathy. {7BC 948.6}

He is making intercession for the most lowly, the most oppressed and suffering, for the most tried and tempted ones. With upraised hands He pleads, "I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands." God loves to hear, and responds to the pleadings of His Son . . . [Hebrews 4:14-16 quoted] (RH Aug. 15, 1893). {7BC 948.7}

June 10, 2011

Quote:

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are they

whose transgressions are forgiven,

whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man

whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

18 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19 Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans chapter four.

Paul uses Abraham as an example. What came first?

It is clear that God made a "promise" first to Abraham.

What came second?

Again according to the text Abraham "believed God".

The promise was that Abraham would be the Father of the Righteous and therefore God accounted him as Justified even though Abraham was still a sinner.

Second Abraham believed God. That is Abraham had Faith, Trust in what God would do. He believed it because with God the promise is as good as the deed done.

If "faith" came first then as the text above points out it would be works and thus Abraham would have collected wages.

NO! NO! Abraham received the "gift" first and then Abraham trusted God.

Did you notice verse five where Paul says that God Justifies the wicked?

Then from verse six Paul cites David saying that a person's sins are forgiven apart from anything a person does. This blessedness as the Bible puts it is given to both the "circumcised" and the "uncircumcised". That means your works mean nothing. God justifies you without regard for what you are or what you have done.

June 11, 2011

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

If rejecting things the Bible never says is rejecting the Gospel - then I suggest you are chasing "another gospel".

No sir, it is you presenting 'another gospel.' You are making faith & works the Savior.

Calvinists accuse Arminians of that all the time.

I still prefer what the Bible does say - to what it does not say.

Which is why I reminded the group of this

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