By Request: Why the Catholic is NOT the Great Whore of Babylon.

[Gustave]

A member here had asked me to start a thread on why Jerusalem....

...Or better said Apostate Judaism is the Great Whore of St. Johns' Apocalypse.

I would start off by saying this is so simply because Sacred Scripture comes right out and says it...

...If a denomination is really "Bible Only" this should be a no brainer.

The Apocalypse states that the Great Whore has ruled the kings or nations of the earth....

...This is spelled out explicitly.

Apocalypse 18, 18

And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

There is ONLY one system described in Sacred Scripture as having this power and authority....

...It was given to 'The Jews' - due to the favor of God.

...As being His special people.

Deuteronomy 7,6

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth

Being a special people included some special favors above and beyond what the Gentile Nations had....

...I'm sure SDA's would agree that Israel did things no other Nation did or could have.

...One of these Graces God gave Israel was POWER through MONEY.

Deuteronomy 15:6

For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.

Proverbs 22:7

The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender

Deuteronomy 28:12

The Lord will open his excellent treasure, the heaven, that it may give rain in due season: and he will bless all the works of thy hands. And thou shalt lend to many nations, and shalt not borrow of any one. And the Lord shall make thee the head and not the tail: and thou shalt be always above, and not beneath: yet so if thou wilt hear the commandments of the Lord thy God which I command thee this day, and keep and do them, And turn not away from them neither to the right hand, nor to the left, nor follow strange gods, nor worship them. But if thou wilt not hear the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep and to do all his commandments and ceremonies, which I command thee this day, all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee. Cursed shalt thou be in the city, cursed in the field. Cursed shall be thy barn, and cursed thy stores. Cursed shall be the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy ground, the herds of thy oxen, and the flocks of thy sheep.

Cursed shalt thou be coming in, and cursed going out. The Lord shall send upon thee famine and hunger, and a rebuke upon all the works which thou shalt do: until he consume and destroy thee quickly, for thy most wicked inventions, by which thou hast forsaken me. May the Lord set the pestilence upon thee, until he consume thee out of the land, which thou shalt go in to possess. May the Lord afflict thee with miser- able want, with the fever and with cold, with burning and with heat, and with corrupted air and with blasting, and pursue thee till thou perish. Be the heaven, that is over thee, of brass: and the ground thou treadest on, of iron. The Lord give thee dust for rain upon thy land, and let ashes come down from heaven upon thee, till thou be consumed. The Lord make thee to fall down before thy enemies, one way mayst thou go out against them, and flee seven ways, and be scattered throughout all the kingdoms of the earth.

This is the foundation of the premise ( notice it is made from Sacred Scripture )...

...It clearly states that the woman St. John saw.

...WAS also that "Great City".

...Christ was KILLED IN JERUSALEM.

Matthew 16,21

From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Luke 13,33

Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem

Apocalypse 11,7

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Anyone who claims to base their teachings on 'The Bible' will have a significant problem...

...In undermining what I've just shown.

...The "WOMAN" or "Great Whore" is also that Great City.

...Which Sacred Scripture ONLY identifies as "Jerusalem".

We can now demonstrate just how great of a Whore Sacred Scripture itself calls Jerusalem....

...And please, I would appreciate it if people don't start attacking me.

...Claiming I hate Jews or some garbage like that.

...We are ALL equally GUILTY and LOST w/out Christ.

Now, lets get back into 'The Word'....

St. John tells us he could see that this "woman" ( who was also the great city )...

...Was drunk off the blood of the Prophets and the Saints.

Apocalypse 17:6

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration

It's generally assumed that to get drunk off of wine....

...A person needs to drink LOTS of it.

...In this case this "woman" aka had the blood of MANY on her hands.

Apocalypse 18:20

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her

Apocalypse 18,24

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth

Jesus said in speaking to the Jews ( not Roman Gentiles ).

Matthew 23,35

That upon YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar

Matthew 23,29

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous

Matthew 23,31

Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets

Matthew 23,37

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not

Acts 7,52

Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers

I could go on posting many more quotes which say the same thing...

...I don't think anyone seriously needs much past this however.

...This Whore is also a City which has killed both Prophets and Saints.

...Sacred Scripture identifies it as Jerusalem.

This Great Whore ( woman which has been identified as Jerusalem )...

...Sits on 7 mountains - the official names of:

...Mt. Goath, Mt. Gareb, Mt. Acra, Mt. Bezetha, Mt. Zion, Mt. Ophel, and Mt. Moriah.

The ONLY two mountains not specifically mentioned in Scripture...

...Are Mt Acra & Mt Bezetha.

...However both are mentioned in the Encyclopedia of Judaism.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=242&letter=J

Now onto the summary of Sacred Scripture that this Great City...

...Which is also a woman and a Great Whore.

Apocalypse 17:5

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH

She ( Jerusalem ) calls herself a Queen, not a widow, and witnesses her destruction in ONE DAY...

...Please take note of what Isaiah says

Chapter 47,7

And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it. Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children: But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know

For Jerusalem as a Great Whore please read:

Isaiah 1,21

Eze 16,23

Isaiah 57 ( WHOLE Chapter )

Jer 2 -3

Hosea 2

There of course ARE others but that should give anyone interested a healthy "Bible start".

NOW, what did St John say about Jerusalem.

Apocalypse 18:7

How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her

This Great Whore who Jesus said would be found to contain ALL the blood of the righteous...

...Is also said to be dressed in certain colors of Red and Purple.

...And holding a Golden cup in "HER" hand.

Apocalypse 17:4

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication

Apocalypse 18:16

And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

Jewish Liturgical Vestments were to be made with purple and scarlet yarn.

Exodus 28,4

And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen

Verse 15

And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it

Verse 33

And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:

etc, etc, etc.

As for riches, gold, jewels, etc.

Exodus 25:29

And thou shalt make the dishes thereof, and spoons thereof, and covers thereof, and bowls thereof, to cover withal: of pure gold shalt thou make them.

Dan 5:2

Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein.

Dan 5:3

Then they brought the golden vessels that were taken out of the temple of the house of God which was at Jerusalem; and the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, drank in them.

The Great Whore DRINKS of the cup.

Apocalypse 18:3

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies

Isaiah 51,17

Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out. There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up. These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee? Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the LORD, the rebuke of thy God. Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine

As for Jerusalem being called "Babylon"....

...Here ya go.

1 Peter 5:13

The church that is at BABYLON, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

observe the time hack.

Galatians 1:18

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

Acts 8:14

Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

There ya go folks....

...The Catholic Church isn't out to round you up because you like to go to church on Saturday.

...We hold Mass every Saturday.

And NO, I don't believe because of the Scriptures I posted Jerusalem the literal city OR people....

...Are in any way EVIL.

...That is a topic fof another time and frankly I'm tired.

I forgot who it was here who asked me post this and I did the best I could in a short amount of time...

...Again, this is only the tip of what's there.

...I think it should be enough.

[Light Fox]

Hi Gus,

Thanks for agreeing to start this topic. I was the one who requested it, incidentally.

This list is a little bit different from the one I originally saw you post (and a bit longer), but I think most of the content is the same. I'm going to try and streamline your points, and let me know if I leave any out or misconstrue your meanings.

1. "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:" (Revelation 17:4)

Your view on this is that because the Jewish liturgical robes contain these colors, therefore it applies to Judaism, and Jerusalem as the city representative of that. While I concede that these colors do make up a portion of certain Jewish vestments, it also is true that these colors appear prominently in Catholic vestments as well. While identifying Jerusalem as having "pearls, precious stones, and a golden cup" is questionable, I can consider this to be a "non-distinct" portion - that is, it is possible to apply this passage to either Jerusalam or Rome with no damage to the text.

So, moving on to the next:

2. "And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev. 17:6)

Much like the last, this could very well be applied to either city. It is undeniable that Jerusalem persecuted the apostles and saints. It is likewise undeniable that Rome did the same, and was in fact the greatest persecutor of Christians in the early ages. Nero and Diocletian are names we both should be familiar with, whether you would consider the persecutions during the dark ages to be counted under this tally or not.

While Jerusalem did persecute, it never did such to the extent of Rome. Nonetheless, persecution did happen in Jerusalem, and one might well say Jerusalem was "drunk" on that blood as they did indeed slay many over the years. Much like the last, then, I consider this a "non-distinct" passage - it can be applied to Jeruslam as well as Rome. Neither is ruled out entirely.

3. "And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth." (Revelation 17:9)

Now, you have pointed out that Jerusalem has seven hills. Rome is known commonly as the city of seven hills. Again, you've presented a valid consideration for Jerusalem being the city. Again, it is not exclusive to either Jerusalem or Rome. So again we are at the position of a possible case for Jerusalem and Rome equally. We must then continue.

4. "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." (Rev. 17:18)

This is where you begin to lose me. You seem to be saying that Jerusalem is "the great city that reigneth over the kings of the earth" because God promised them in the Old Testament that if they were faithful, they would reign and not be reigned over.

But that wasn't the case, was it? In fact, Jerusalem reigned over no one at the time of the Apocalypse being written. The author, John, was banished to Patmos by a Roman ruler, not a Jewish one. One of the most persistent narratives of the Gospels is the fact that Rome ruled over Jerusalem to the point that the Jews required Roman permission and soldiers to crucify Christ. The very reasoning for this action was "If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation." (John 11:14)

To say that Jerusalem was "the great city that reigneth over the kings of the earth" at the time of John, or any subsequent time, is absurd. On this point, I cannot follow you, and interestingly, this is the most plain part of the passage for identifying the woman.

5. "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast...And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire." (Rev. 17:12-16)

This was not quoted in your post, but I feel the need to insert it. What ten kings received power with the beast? What was the beast that Jerusalem was riding in your view? And finally, what ten kings made war with Jerusalem?

While I am interested in seeing if you have an application of this to Jerusalem, one certainly exists for Rome, in the eventual ten divisions of the Gothic tribes that made war with the Roman Empire for centuries.

6. "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son." (1 Peter 5:13)

It appears that you are saying that Peter was in Jerusalem for the authoring of this epistle, because he was in Jerusalem at one point. Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on St. Peter has to say on the matter:

St. Peter's First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: "The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark" (5:13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Revelation 17:5; 18:10; "Oracula Sibyl.", V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).

I don't feel the need to add any additional scholarship to that cited, though I find it interesting that the book in question considers some of the passages you are applying to Jerusalem (viz. Revelation 17:5, 18:10) to be early Christian references to Rome.

At the present, then here is where I am:

I believe you've made some interesting cases for Jerusalem as a fulfillment of a few of the passages describing Babylon. I do not see where you've attempted to show it could not be Rome, but at best presented Jerusalem as a viable candidate along with Rome. On further examination, it appears Jerusalem does not fulfill all criteria, while Rome does, and Catholic historical sources seem to agree on this point.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Gustave]

Qinael, thanks for responding.

I start with the premise that Jerusalem is that "Great City"...

...Because Jesus was killed there.

...According to the Scriptures.

Apocalypse 17,18

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth

Apocalypse 11:8

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified

Christ was crucified in Jerusalem according to the Scriptures...

...Therefore the other proofs I listed are ancillary to that.

...Might as well add another.

Apocalypse 17:16

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire

Sounds about like,

Eze 16

And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:

2Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations.

3And thou shalt say: Thus saith the Lord God to Jerusalem: Thy root, and thy nativity is of the land of Chanaan, thy father was an Amorrhite, and thy mother a Cethite.

4And when thou wast born, in the day of thy nativity thy navel wits not cut, neither wast thou washed with water for thy health, nor salted with salt, nor swaddled with clouts.

5No eye had pity on thee to do any of these things for thee, out of compassion to thee: but thou wast cast out upon the face of the earth in the abjection of thy soul, in the day that thou wast born.

6And passing by thee, I saw that thou wast trodden under foot in thy own blood. and I said to thee when thou wast in thy blood: Live: I have said to thee: Live in thy blood.

7I caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field: and thou didst increase and grow great, and advancedst, and camest to woman's ornament: thy breasts were fashioned, and thy hair grew: and thou wast naked, and full of confusion.

8And I passed by thee, and saw thee: and behold thy time was the time of lovers : and I spread my garment over thee, and covered thy ignominy. And I swore to thee, and I entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord God: and thou becamest mine.

9And I washed thee with water, and cleansed away thy blood from thee: and I anointed thee with oil.

10And I clothed thee with embroidery, and shed thee with violet coloured shoes : and I girded thee about with fine linen, and clothed thee with fine garments.

11I decked thee also with ornaments, and put bracelets on thy hands, and a chain about thy neck.

12And I put a jewel upon thy forehead and earrings in thy ears, and a beautiful crown upon thy head.

13And thou wast adorned with gold, and silver, and wast clothed with fine linen, and embroidered work, and many colours: thou didst eat fine hour, and honey, and oil, and wast made exceeding beautiful: and wast advanced to be a queen.

14And thy renown went forth among the nations for thy beauty: for thou wast perfect through my beauty, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord God.

15But trusting in thy beauty, thou playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and thou hast prostituted thyself to every passenger, to be his.

16And taking of thy garments thou hast made thee high places sewed together on each side: and hast played the harlot upon them, as hath not been done before, nor shall be hereafter.

17And thou tookest thy beautiful vessels, of my gold, and my silver, which I gave thee, and thou madest thee images of men, and hast committed fornication with them.

18And thou tookest thy garments of divers colours, and coveredst them : and settest my oil and my sweet incense before them.

19And my bread which I gave thee, the fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast set before them for a sweet odour; and it was done, saith the Lord God.

20And thou hast taken thy sons, and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne to me: and best sacrificed the same to them to be devoured. Is thy fornication small?

21Thou hast sacrificed and given my children to them, consecrating them by fire.

22And after all thy abominations, and fornications, thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked, and full of confusion, trodden under foot in thy own blood.

23And it came to pass after all thy wickedness (woe, woe to thee, saith the Lord God)

24That thou didst also build thee a common stew, and madest thee a brothel house in every street.

25At every head of the way thou hast set up a sign of thy prostitution: and hast made thy beauty to be abominable: and hast prostituted thyself to every one that passed by, and hast multiplied thy fornications.

26And thou hast committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, men of large bodies, and hast multiplied thy fornications to provoke me.

27Behold, I will stretch out my hand upon thee, and will take away thy justification: and I will deliver thee up to the will of the daughters of the Philistines that hate thee, that are ashamed of thy wicked way.

28Thou hast also committed fornication with the Assyrians, because thou wast not yet satisfied: and after thou hadst played the harlot with them, even so thou wast not contented.

29Thou hast also multiplied thy fornications in the land of Chanaan with the Chaldeans: and neither so wast then satisfied.

30Wherein shall I cleanse thy heart, saith the Lord God: seeing thou dost all these the works of a shameless prostitute?

31Because thou hast built thy brothel house at the head of every way, and thou hast made thy high place in every street: and wast not as a harlot that by disdain enhanceth her price,

32But as an adulteress, that bringeth in strangers over her husband.

33Gifts are given to all harlots: but thou hast given hire to all thy lovers, and thou hast given them gifts to come to thee from every side, to commit fornication with thee.

34And it hath happened in thee contrary to the custom of women in thy fornications, and after thee there shall be no such fornication: for in that thou gavest rewards, and didst not take rewards, the contrary hath been done in thee.

35Therefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord.

36Thus saith the Lord God: Because thy money hath been poured out, and thy shame discovered through thy fornications with thy lovers, and with the idols of thy abominations, by the blood of thy children whom thou gavest them:

37Behold, I will gather together all thy lovers with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all whom thou hast loved, with all whom thou hast hated: and I will gather them together against thee on every side, and will discover thy shame in their sight, and they shall see all thy nakedness.

38And I will judge thee as adulteresses, and they that shed blood are judged: and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

39And I will deliver thee into their hands, and they shall destroy thy brothel house, and throw down thy stews: and they shall strip thee of thy garments, and shall take away the vessels of thy beauty: and leave thee naked, and full of disgrace.

40And they shall bring upon thee a multitude, and they shall stone thee with stones, and shall slay thee with their swords.

4141And they shall burn thy houses with fire, and shall execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and thou shalt cease from fornication, and shalt give no hire any more.

42And my indignation shall rest in thee: and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will cease and be angry no more.

43Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast provoked me in all these things: wherefore I also have turned thy ways upon thy head, saith the Lord God, and I have not done according to thy wicked deeds in all thy abominations.

44Behold every one that useth a common proverb, shall use this against thee, saying: As the mother was, so also is her daughter.

45Thou art thy mother's daughter, that cast off her husband, and her children: and thou art the sister of thy sisters, who cast off their husbands, and their children: your mother was a Cethite, and your father an Amorrhite.

46And thy elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister that dwelleth at thy right hand is Sodom, and her daughters.

47But neither hast thou walked in their ways, nor hast thou done a little less than they according to their wickednesses: thou hast done almost more wicked things than they in all thy ways

48as I live, saith the Lord God, thy sister Sodom herself, and her daughters, have not done as thou hast done, and thy daughters.

49Behold this was the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance, and the idleness of her, and of her daughters: and they did not put forth their hand to the needy, and to the poor.

50And they were lifted up, and committed abominations before me: and I took them away as thou hast seen.

51And Samaria committed not half thy sins: but thou hast surpassed them with thy crimes, and hast justified thy sisters by all thy abominations which thou hast done.

52Therefore do thou also bear thy confusion, thou that hast surpassed thy sisters with thy sine, doing more wickedly than they: for they are justified above thee, therefore be thou also confounded, and bear thy shame, thou that hast justified thy sisters.

53And I will bring back and restore them by bringing back Sodom, with her daughters, and by bringing back Samaria, and her daughters: and I will bring those that return of thee in the midst of them.

54That thou mayest bear thy shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, comforting them.

55And thy sister Sodom and her daughters shall return to their ancient state: and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their ancient state: and thou and thy daughters shall return to your ancient state.

56And Sodom thy sister was not heard of in thy mouth, in the day of thy pride,

57Before thy malice was laid open: as it is at this time, making thee a reproach of the daughters of Syria, and of all the daughters of Palestine round about thee, that encompass thee on all sides.

58Thou hast borne thy wickedness, and thy disgrace, saith the Lord God.

59For thus saith the Lord God: I will deal with thee, as thou hast despised the oath, in breaking the covenant:

I believe you've made some interesting cases for Jerusalem as a fulfillment of a few of the passages describing Babylon. I do not see where you've attempted to show it could not be Rome, but at best presented Jerusalem as a viable candidate along with Rome. On further examination, it appears Jerusalem does not fulfill all criteria, while Rome does, and Catholic historical sources seem to agree on this point.

What are your thoughts on this?

It's not certain Peter was in Rome at that time....

...And it's absolutely preposterous to suggest Rome meets all the criteria.

...Why don't you start by demonstrating how Jerusalem wasn't the City associated with Christ's death.

...Than we can go point by point.

[Light Fox]

Hi Gus,

Okay. So, it sounds like you're basically bypassing the majority of those to focus on two points:

1. "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Revelation 11:8)

I actually realized I had forgotten this one after making my last post. I considered either editing or posting a follow-up, but I decided I'd let it go for a pretty simple reason; neither the verse or it's context is talking about Babylon, the whore, or anything of the sort. It seems that the link you're making is because it says "the great city" in this passage, and six chapters later refers to Babylon as being "the great city that reigneth over the kings of the earth," therefore there must only be one "great city" and both verses are describing the same thing.

I don't consider this to be valid logic. There's no indication that they are the same aside from being called a "great city," and the fact that John had to qualify the latter as "..that reigneth over the kings of the earth" seems to support a distinction. In either event, there's really no way to claim that Jerusalem reigned over any kings of the earth, making that an impossible identifier.

Further, you seem to be relying on a passage in Revelation 11 that is not given as an identifier (Babylon and the whore have not even been introduced yet), but is speaking of the spiritual condition - "spiritually Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." Spiritually, it is called Sodom; spiritually, it is called Egypt; spiritually, it is where the Lord was crucified. Chapter 18 is where John writes not of spiritual symbols or attributes but how to identify her, and what he says cannot be applied to Jerusalem. It can be, however - and universally is - applied to Rome.

Basically, even if the verse in chapter 11 is granted to be talking about the whore woman Babylon along with chapter 18, Jerusalem doesn't fit, because it didn't reign over the kings of the earth. Rome would fit, because it did reign over the kings of the earth, and everyone who read John's letter knew exactly what that meant - which was the point. Even if you were to persist in tying Revelation 11 in with Babylon (which I do not think is warranted), saying that Rome was spiritually Sodom, Egypt, and crucified the Lord is feasible:

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." (Matthew 25:40)

On another, perhaps lesser note, as a Roman Catholic you believe that Peter was the vicar of Christ. Not only did Rome crucify Christians, but they crucified Peter upside-down as tradition dictates. What would better warrant being described as "spiritually... where our Lord was crucified?" Even if you do not wish to accept the killing of Christians as constituting spiritually crucifying Christ, I would think your doctrine regarding Peter would require some admission of his martyrdom if nothing else.

2. Ezekiel 16

I'm actually very familiar with this chapter, as it turns out. We even have an article on the CSDA website dealing with some prophetic applications of it's sister chapter, 23. What I'm not seeing is what you mean by it "sounds like" the description of ten kings receiving power the same hour with the beast, and hating the whore.

What I read is Jerusalem being called a whore, yes. And it certainly does speak of her lovers - two of them, Egypt and Assyria - turning on her. That is the fullest possible extent of similarities, and it's not a very striking one in the least.

First of all, Ezekiel describes Jerusalem as a younger sister to Samaria in verse 46, and says the same again in parable in chapter 23 - the accusation is that Jerusalem followed her elder sister Samaria into whoredoms instead of learning from her mistakes. That's quite a different visual from "Mother of Harlots," don't you think?

Further, where is the beast? Where are the ten kings? Where is them receiving power in the same hour? And even further, Revelation is prophetic - or are you suggesting that John simply re-wrote, in unnecessarily symbolic language, about something that Ezekiel recorded happening in plain language to Jerusalem over 600 years earlier?

It seems like you're just taking something with a couple of similar points, throwing it out there, and saying "See? Sounds about like this." Sure, some parts sound about like each other... but that doesn't really mean anything when it doesn't match the specifics. Biblical doctrine can't be built around a few shared some keywords.

As far as Peter's location at the writing of 1 Peter, if you find any research or scholars attesting to anything other than Rome, let me know. It's agreed (and in fact, the foundation of Roman Catholic Apostolic Succession) that Peter both lived out his last days, and finally died in Rome under Nero. It's also understood that the date of authorship was at the end of Peter's life, as he addresses it to Christians in those areas he had evangelized before settling in Rome.

Either way, even if you choose to remain of the opinion that "we can't be sure," that discounts Jerusalem as an option.

[Sonny]

What does it mean, spiritually, to be a whore? Remember that the church is suppose to be his bride. Let's go to Romans 7:1

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

As long as you are alive the law says "obey & live" disobey & die". You are under it's jurisdiction. Since no one is living up to its highest demands the law places you in death row waiting execution.

Now Paul turns to the law of marriage as an illustration of what it means to be under law:

2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

As long as the husband is alive his wife is bound to him through the marriage law, but if she marries another while married she is an adulteress.

In Paul's example the marriage law represents God's law. The other man represents Jesus. The woman represents us.

To be married to the law while claiming Christ is spiritually adultery. You can't be under the claims of the law and simultaneously be under Christ and salvation by faith.

So any church that claims Christ as its husband and yet claims to be under the law's jurisdiction (as in "obey & live", "disobey & die") is committing spiritual adultery.

What churches come under this union?

I know the Catholic church does. I know there are elements within the SDA church too.

[miz3]

Good point Sonny!

[miz3]

The CSDA Church does as well fit into the category of legalistic entities.

There Doctrine of overcoming "all known sin" is a legalistic Doctrine and fits the picture of an Adulteress!

[Sonny]

There Doctrine of overcoming "all known sin" is a legalistic Doctrine and fits the picture of an Adulteress!

You know, it's fine if someone overcomes "all known sin" because if it's genuine it will glorify God, but the problem I have is if you make that a means of salvation. Then we get into men glorying themselves by a works program. That doesn't glorify God, but rather it becomes a "fair show of the flesh"

[miz3]

Sonny, you have just described the CSDA Church to a "T"!

They are about self glory!

[Sonny]

Sonny, you have just described the CSDA Church to a "T"!

They are about self glory!

Uh, I'm a little slow....What's CSDA?

[miz3]

CSDA is the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church led by pastorchick. Qinael and Israfel are members of this cult. All three post on this website.

One of their main Doctrines and requirements for membership is for a person to "overcome all known sin". They believe they and they alone are the 144,000.

Pastorchick, claims to be a prophet in the same way Ellen White was a prophet. Pastorchick also claims to have "visions and dreams" from God. He also claims to be the "Elijah" that Ellen White said was to come. He also claims to have heard the Direct voice of God.

[BobRyan]

A member here had asked me to start a thread on why Jerusalem....

...Or better said Apostate Judaism is the Great Whore of St. Johns' Apocalypse.

I would start off by saying this is so simply because Sacred Scripture comes right out and says it...

I have heard that argument from Catholics for years - but as it turns out - it does not hold water in either Rev 17 or Rev 12.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

The CSDA Church does as well fit into the category of legalistic entities.

There Doctrine of overcoming "all known sin" is a legalistic Doctrine and fits the picture of an Adulteress!

Overcoming all known sins is a true doctrine since none but those who do will receive the outpouring of the Spirit in latter rain power. But to come out and claim that you have overcome all known sins is what is contrary to the spirit of the Gospel

sky

[BobRyan]

The Apocalypse states that the Great Whore has ruled the kings or nations of the earth....

...This is spelled out explicitly.

Apocalypse 18, 18

And the woman which thou sawest IS that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Only the RCC fits that description has can be seen not only in the historic record of the "Holy Roman Empire" but even in the RCC's own author's books. Malachi Martin for example "freely Admits" that the greatest empire to follow the Romans Empire was that of the RCC both in the extent of domination and duration of domination. In fact he also argues that the degree of domination over everyday life by the RCC exceeded that of the Roman Empire.

So strike one for your premise right off the bat.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Some time ago I posted a study on Revelation 17. I would like to share it again. Should I do it here or start another thread?

sky

[BobRyan]

There is ONLY one system described in Sacred Scripture as having this power and authority....

...It was given to 'The Jews' - due to the favor of God.

...As being His special people.

Deuteronomy 7,6

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth

Being a special people included some special favors above and beyond what the Gentile Nations had....

...I'm sure SDA's would agree that Israel did things no other Nation did or could have.

...One of these Graces God gave Israel was POWER through MONEY.

Deuteronomy 15:6

For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.

Proverbs 22:7

The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender

Deuteronomy 28:12

[color:#000099]The Lord will open his excellent treasure, the heaven, that it may give rain in due season: and he will bless all the works of thy hands. And thou shalt lend to many nations,

[BobRyan]

...It clearly states that the woman St. John saw.

...WAS also that "Great City".

...Christ was KILLED IN JERUSALEM.

[skyblue888]

Bob, whats the point of ur last post? you quoted Gustave all the way and made no comments.

sky

[BobRyan]

I was just place holding for a sec...

[skyblue888]

Revelation 17 gives us a complete picture of the history of this world reaching all the way from ancient Babylon to the drying up of the River Euphrates after the close of probation prior to the return of Jesus in the "clouds" of Heaven. Please let me share with you what I have come to understand over the years.

THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE

"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked to me, saying to me, 'Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication. " Rev.17:1,2.

The next verse starts with the word, "So." What does the word "so" indicate? That what is now going to follow is the fulfillment of the statement made by the angel: "I will show you the judgment of the great whore." So, to accomplish this promise, he now carries him away in the Spirit into the "wilderness."

"So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw the woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns." Rev.17:3.

"And on her forehead a name was written: Mystery, Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots and of The Abominations of the Earth." Rev.17:5.

For the first time, we find a symbolic name, an actual symbolic name, not just a symbol but a symbolic name. A woman is a symbol of a church but Babylon is a symbolic name for it.

We now have a symbolic name for the whore or the woman. We should expect very obviously that there would be a symbolic name provided for the waters or that scarlet beast upon which the whore sits.

Now, we are looking for a symbolic name not mentioned in the chapter. And we are expected to understand what that symbolic name is because here is that whore whose symbolic name is Great Babylon sitting upon those waters, the symbolic name of which must be Euphrates!

Back in the Old Testament times, what did Babylon sit on? Euphrates! We can't separate Euphrates from Babylon. Just as ancient Babylon sat on and was supported by the great river Euphrates, which kept that great city alive, so, modern Babylon sits upon the peoples of this earth because waters symbolize peoples and therefore, if Babylon sits upon waters, the waters must have a symbolic name, and that symbolic name must come from the type in the Old Testament. In other words, here was typical Babylon and here was a typical river!

"And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." Rev.17:18.

Therefore, the waters, the beast, and the kings of the earth are three different symbols representing the same thing, the peoples of the earth. The day will come when all the peoples of this earth will support Babylon the Great but that support will be "dried up" suddenly at the time of the fifth plague.

Just as the ancient River was dried up to make way for the kings of the east, ( Medo-Persian kings) so the people who support the whore in the last days will be "dried up" to bring about the downfall of Babylon The Great and thus make way for the Kings of the East, Christ and the redeemed, to return! See Ezekiel 43:2.

If we think type and antitype, we will have no problem identifying symbolic names in the book of Revelation.

to be continued

[BobRyan]

Now, lets get back into 'The Word'....

St. John tells us he could see that this "woman" ( who was also the great city )...

...Was drunk off the blood of the Prophets and the Saints.

Apocalypse 17:6

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration

It's generally assumed that to get drunk off of wine....

...A person needs to drink LOTS of it.

...In this case this "woman" aka had the blood of MANY on her hands.

Apocalypse 18:20

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her

Apocalypse 18,24

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth

[Pastor_Chick]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The CSDA Church does as well fit into the category of legalistic entities.

There Doctrine of overcoming "all known sin" is a legalistic Doctrine and fits the picture of an Adulteress!

Overcoming all known sins is a true doctrine since none but those who do will receive the outpouring of the Spirit in latter rain power. But to come out and claim that you have overcome all known sins is what is contrary to the spirit of the Gospel

sky

Sounds like a broken record to me. Excellent publicity, if that is what you had in mind.

I have not seen a thread that stays "on topic" yet. Sorry, Gus.

[skyblue888]

Rev.17 post # 2

In verse 6 we read:

"And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marvelled with great amazement."

Back in verse 3 the angel promised to give John the interpretation of the vision which previously had been given. The angel said, "I will tell you the mystery of the woman."

When you start to read the angel's explanation, your first reaction is that he has made the mystery more mysterious! Let us read it in verse 8:

"The beast (whore) that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, is not, and yet is."

Do you feel you were given a good explanation? Verse 9:

"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, and the other is yet to come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. And the beast that was, and is not, is himself the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition."

A little bit of careful study will soon begin to unravel this mystery and you will be surprised how simple the prophecy really is. First of all in verse 8:

"The beast that you saw and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."

When we have an expression like, "was", "is not", and "will be again", it indicates that we need to have a reference point in time. The reference point chosen determines what was, what is not and what will be as the case may be.

In order for us to understand what beast is spoken of as being in the past, and also being not present, and shall be again, we have to make up our minds on the basis of the evidence given. What was the reference point from which John was observing these facts? That is very very important to know!

Some have taken the position that John is speaking from his own point of time, but when we study the works of a prophet, do we find that they all spoke from their own point of time? Or were they sometimes moved far away into the future and spoke from that point of time?

A prophet is very often picked up from his own time and projected far into the future and from that future point of time, he then begins to describe things that were and are and will be. And if we are to understand what the prophet is saying, what must we determine? That reference point. It is not very difficult.

In verse 3 we are told that in order to see the judgement of the great whore, John had to be carried in the Spirit into the wilderness. When he got there, what did he see? He saw the whore sitting upon the scarlet beast. Now if he had to go to the wilderness to see the whore, where must she have been? In the wilderness.

What does it mean for the woman to be in the wilderness? Is she always there or is it a temporary sojourn and not a permanent one? If we go back to Revelation 12, we find that when the woman (pure church) brought forth the man child (Jesus) where did she flee after the man child was taken up to Heaven? To the wilderness. Between 538 and 1798, the true church of God was in the wilderness. She went there in obscurity as a result of the persecuting powers that sought to destroy her.

Therefore, the true church was not "in the wilderness" when Jesus Christ was living upon the earth nor during the Apostolic period but when the persecution began, that is when she found herself driven into the wilderness. So, obviously, what does it mean to be in the wilderness? It means to be oppressed, persecuted; it means to be the tail and not the head, to be under, and not above.

During the time when the true church of God was "in the wilderness," was Papal Rome also in the same place? No. She was on top. She was sitting as a queen! Now, what about John's own day? Was Pagan Rome persecuted and driven away from her own natural habitat or was she likewise on top of the world? On top!

So, when did the papal power go "into the wilderness?" In 1798! In 1798 the papacy was driven "into the wilderness" in a position of oppression and obscurity. But that did not stop the papacy from doing her work to regain the supremacy of the world. Since then she has been working in obscurity, working behind the scenes, pulling the strings, politically and religiously. Therefore, what was John's point of reference? After 1798.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Rev.17 post # 3

Verses 9 and 10: "Here is the mind which has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time."

In prophecy, what does a "mountain" symbolize? A kingdom. In Jeremiah 51:25, Babylon is described as being a "destroying mountain." Daniel 2 mentions two mountains. The one from which the stone was cut and the one under which the stone grew. What do these "mountains" symbolize? God's Kingdom.

"The seven heads are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come and when he comes, he must continue a short time."

To identify those kings, what must we have? Again, a point of reference before which five have fallen, one still remained, and the other had not yet come.

If we take John's own day as the point of reference this is what we get:

Five have fallen

1.Egypt

2.Assyria

3.Babylon

4.Medo-Persia

5.Greece

________________________________

6.Pagan Rome (POINT OF REFERENCE)

the one that is in John's day

7.Papal Rome---yet to come

But then, we have a problem because we have one that is, and in John's day, that one was Pagan Rome and the other one which had not yet come was Papal Rome. But what about the beast of Revelation 11, Atheistic France, and the lamb-like beast of Rev.13, Apostate Protestantism? So if we take John's day as the point of reference, we have to say, 5 have fallen, one is, and THREE are yet to come! But does the Bible say that? It doesn't.

But if we take the point of reference given us directly from verse 3 of chapter 17, which is the time after 1798, we now ask the question: which are the five which have fallen? It is, very obviously:

1.Babylon

2.Medo-Persia

3.Greece

4.Pagan Rome

5.Papal Rome

6.Atheistic France (After 1798) POINT OF REFERENCE) one that is

7.Apostate Protestantism (the one which is yet to come)

What was the satanic form which took over from Papal Rome after 1798? Atheism. Revelation 11:7; The Great Controversy, p.269,270. And what is the other one which has not yet come? The lamb-like beast of Revelation 13, Apostate Protestantism.

Verse 12: "And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as king with the beast. They are one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast."

What is the popular interpretation of what these 10 horns or ten kings are? The common market countries of ancient Europe: Noway, Sweeden, Germany, Denmark, England, France, Holland, Belgium, Spain, and Portugal.

But this conclusion we cannot accept for one important reason. What is it in the text itself which would make it an impossibility for those ancient European kings to be the ten horns or the ten kings of Revelation 17:12? The text says that THESE KINGS HAVE RECEIVED NO POWER AS KINGS YET and they will not receive power as kings until one hour with the beast.

So, at what point of time alone in human history will the ten horns receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast? At the very end. Not before the Papacy comes back to universal dominion, and that time has not yet come.

Does England have power as a kingdom today? Certainly. Does France have power as a kingdom today? It does. Does Germany have power as a kingdom today? Yes, it does. So do all the European countries. Therefore, not one of those countries are the powers mentioned here in Revelation 17:12.

One more thing, we cannot limit the ten horns (kings) on this beast to anything less than the territory occupied by this beast which is the entire world. The ten countries of Europe are only a small part of that territory today. Whatever territory is occupied by the beast is occupied by the horns on the beast. Therefore, the ten kings occupy how much of the world? All of it.

Verse 13: "These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast."

"In the warfare to be waged in the last days, there will be united, in opposition to God's people, all the corrupt powers that have apostatized from allegiance to the law of God. There will be a universal bond of union, one great harmony, a confederacy of Satan's forces. 'And shall give their power and strength to the beast.'"

"What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7a, p.427.

Does Apostate Protestantism have a power as a kingdom today? No, but when it receives the power of the State, it will be a kingdom then for one hour with the beast. The ten kings (horns) are the peoples of this earth distributed in the ten major world religions:

1.Protestantism

2.Catholicism

3.Greek Orthodox

4.Judaism

5.Islam

6.Buddhism

7.Shintuism

8.Confucianism

9.Hinduism

10.Communism

These will make an image to the beast and will receive power from the state and will give it to the papacy and reign with her for a short time.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Rev.17 post # 4

Here is that one statement from Mrs. White which shows that the ten horns (kings) of Revelation 17 are "churches" or major religions of the world:

"In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches--Rev.17:1-4 quoted--who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." E.G.White, Bible Commentary, vol.7a,p.427.

Instead of saying "kings" Mrs. White says "churches". These are the major religions of this worlds who will receive a kingdom for "one hour" with the papacy. This is the union of church and state in every country of the globe with the church having the ascendancy thus making an image to the papacy.

"And the woman which you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." Rev.17:18.

"As America, the land of religious liberty, shall unite with the papacy in forcing the conscience and compelling men to honour the false Sabbath, the people of every country of the globe will be led to follow her example." 6 T 18.

Verse 17: "For God has put it in their hearts to fulfil His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled."

"Foreign nations will follow the example of the United States. Though she leads out, yet the same crisis will come upon our people in all parts of the world." 6 T 395.

These will give their power to the papacy, the 8th:

"Thus is represented the papal power which with all deceivableness of unrighteousness, by outside attraction and gorgeous display, deceives all nations; promising them, as did Satan our first parents, all good to those who receive its mark, and all harm to those who oppose its fallacies...

"The power which has the deepest inward corruption will make the greatest display, and will clothe itself with the most elaborate signs of power. The Bible plainly declares this covers a corrupt and deceiving wickedness. 'Upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and the Abominations of the Earth." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7a, p.427.

Verse 14: "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, faithful. And He said to me, 'The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

This is the drying up of the River Euphrates in these last days at the time of the sixth plague as described in Revelation 16:18-20; 19:17-21.

At the time of the fifth plague, "A dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. Then a rainbow shining with the glory from the throne of God, spans the heavens and seems to encircle each praying company. The angry multitudes are suddently arrested. Their mocking cries die away. The objects of their murderous rage are forgotten. With fearful forebodings they gaze upon the symbol of God's covenant and long to be shielded from its overpowering brightness...

"The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithful pastors have prophesied smooth things; they have led their hearers to make void the law of God and to persecute those who would keep it holy. Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception.

"The multitudes (waters of Rev.17:15, River Euphrates of these last days) are filled with fury. 'We are lost!' they cry, 'and you are the cause of our ruin,' and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords that were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed." The Great Controversy, pp.636,656.

This is the judgment of the great whore at the time of the drying up of her support.

The prophet Daniel spoke of this in those words: "He--the papacy--shall come to his end, and no one shall help him." Daniel 11:45.

This is the complete and final drying up of the River Euphrates which brings the physical downfall of Babylon the Great and prepares the way for Christ to return with ten thousands of His saints! Jude 14; Ezekiel 43:2.

These are the true Kings of the East who are coming with Him!

Any comments?

sky