By Request: Why the Catholic is NOT the Great Whore of Babylon.

[Gustave]

Sonny, I understand and appreciate the position you have found yourself in...

...With the inability to rectify Ellen's unbiblical rubric.

...Of the pre-Incarnate Son of God loosing "His" eternal existence had He sinned post Incarnation.

I realize the fact that Ellen's teachings in this area demonstrate beyond any doubt...

...That Ellen believed the life eternal & unborrowed in Christ was "on loan" from The Father.

...Thereby allowing Christ the ability to go bye, bye eternally.

...Christ would have been forever gone but His Diety being just like a Drivers License.

...Would have returned to the "issuer".

You want to talk about Catholic's calling Priests "Father" now....

...I can understand why you would.

1 Jn 2:1, 13-14

My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father. 14 I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

Did St. John see himself as a spiritual father to the Christians he was speaking to???

...Yes or no is the only answer to this question.

1 Cor. 4:14-15

I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

Did St. Paul understand that he was a spiritual father to the Christians he was speaking to???

...Yes or no is the only answer to this question.

2 Tim. 2:1-2

You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also

Was Timothy St. Paul's actual son in the literal sense YOU are YOUR literal Father's son???

...Yes or no is the only answer to this question.

Now, would you be willing to describe the mechanics of how it would be possible....

...For the pre-Incarnate Son of God to sink and die IF the pre-Incarnate Son of God was Diety?

...Ya know Ellen White said it was impossible for Diety to sink and die.

[Overaged]

How can a sinner, like the Pope, call Himself "Holy Father"?

Matt 19:16 And behold, one came to him [jesus] and said, Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why askest thou me concerning that which is good? There is only one good, that is , God.

Righteousness = goodness = Holiness

To claim to be righteous is delusional. To claim to be Christ's substitute on earth (the Job of the Holy Spirit) is anti-Christ.

You too are wrong about Adventists. We are not "SDAs" nor do we have any kind of Pope.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Ellen White, this, and Ellen White that....Who cares? She's not the Pope of SDA! Christ is their Pope. Adventists go directly through Christ. They don't go through a sinner like the Pope - a man that allows Himself to be called "Holy Father" or Vicar of Christ.

After the hard facts are established that was exactly the answer I was expecting Sonny....

...Thanks for trying.

If you are "expecting" certain answers; how can the discussion be "open-minded?"

[Overaged]

Now, would you be willing to describe the mechanics of how it would be possible....

...For the pre-Incarnate Son of God to sink and die IF the pre-Incarnate Son of God was Diety?

...Ya know Ellen White said it was impossible for Diety to sink and die.

[Sonny]

Good try, actually not! Holy Father is for our heavenly Father, not the Pope! He is not Holy.

[BobRyan]

Oh, and I've quoted Ellen several times in separate statements ( of her's )....

...Where she said IT WAS the pre-Incarnate Christ THAT RISKED His FUTURE eternal existence.

...So the only reason I can think of as to why you still claim I've not shown anything.

...Is because you ARE in a serious bind over the fact that you have no answer.

...And I've clearly demonstrated Ellen's view of Christ is exactly what I've been telling you all along it was.

You have repeatedly issued the false claim that you had a quote stating that Ellen White said Christ would "Cease to exist" -- in that hypothetical scenario... but in fact you have not given in one such statement.

the point remains.

I already pointed out that the future existence of Christ was at stake in that he would spend that future eternally separated from the Father (Ellen White's claim). But you bend-and-wrench into "Christ would cease to exist". Then having only your own self as a "source" for that you attribute it to Ellen White.

I keep telling you that we "noticed" and you keep insisting that we did not see you as you did that.

I guess that may pass as valid persuasive debate among fellow Catholics - but it is not working with actual SDAs.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I think it goes something like this --

Phil 2

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

[BobRyan]

Hint - "Tempted in all points as we are".

We are not claiming that Jesus had a sinful nature.

Paul says in Romans 5 that Jesus was the second Adam in terms of his sinful nature not being there.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Boyryan

2. You are right that Ellen White and SDAs in general all believe that God created other worlds and that sinless beings live there. You are also correct to say that Ellen White claimed to have been taken to several of those planets in vision and to have spoken with the people who lived there. And you are correct to conclude that they are more advanced than we are.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

I would also be correct in saying Ellen explicitly stated that these E.T.'s could sin and fall....

...As you know many things can happen over a 200 year time period.

...So it's within possibility that these E.T.'s may have fallen within a few years of their conversation with Ellen.

Again you "reach" for the hypothetical - imagination-scenario. What we do have from Ellen White is that none of the other worlds have fallen, that all of them rejected Satan's plan, that all of them saw the horrific results that sin has brought to this planet.

You transmutate that into "other worlds have fallen" in some odd alternate reality you need to build your case upon.

How odd.

Originally Posted By: Bobryan

What you are missing is that SDAs are unified in stating that just as ghosts are either a case of fakes or of demons depending on the circumstance - so also the UFO storytelling is either fake or demons depending on the circumstance

Originally Posted By: Gustave

How do you and the rest of the SDA's know for certain that the E.T.'s didn't sin and fall...

...Ellen said it was absoultely within possibility so what justification do you use in claiming UFO's have to be fake or demons?

We all believe in free will. But we also believe that compelling evidence can provide complete agreement for free-will beings just as we see in Job 1 and 2 where the test of Job - results in the vindiction of God before that assembled group of watchers and observers.

As I stated in a prior post - Paul affirms the fact that the gospel is on display before the heavenly universe in the person of the Church of God. Eph 3:10 They "see" the defeat of Lucifer at the cross. No more "undecided" in that group of free will intelligent beings.

No need to worry about some Alien from a nearby planet being unsaved, having evil intent, or needing to jump in a space craft to actually see what is going on here.

Nor would they - given the 2Cor 4:4 fact that Lucifer is the "god of this world" going about as a roaring lion as Peter said.

Originally Posted By: Bob Ryan

Paul said in Eph 3:10 that intelligences in the heavenly realm view the Gospel through the Church on earth - as being "displayed" before them. They can see us just fine from where they are.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

In a "pre-fallen" state....

...Would that extend to a post fallen state?

Ellen White already told us that that as of 1900 years after the cross - they still had not fallen - and we are also told in the Gospels and by Ellen White that Satan was defeated in the eyes of the Universe at the cross. Thus none of them are anxious to "Share our fate".

And given that their increased knowlege would leave them "without excuse" they would not merely suffer "our fate" in sinning - they would sufer the fate of the fallen angels - no redemption.

in Christ,

Bob

Excellent reply Bob.

sky

[skyblue888]

Bob, are you saying that Christ's flesh was not sinful?

sky

[Gustave]

You have repeatedly issued the false claim that you had a quote stating that Ellen White said Christ would "Cease to exist" -- in that hypothetical scenario... but in fact you have not given in one such statement.

the point remains.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Bobryan

You have repeatedly issued the false claim that you had a quote stating that Ellen White said Christ would "Cease to exist" -- in that hypothetical scenario... but in fact you have not given in one such statement.

the point remains.

Bob, you are being very childish here...

...Very well then - it's just another opportunity to educate anyone new that happens onto the thread.

Ellen White

HAD the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope. {1SM 256.1}

[Gustave]

You continue to misquote small snippets and portions of various sentences or paragraphs to give supposed "support" for your accusations. This is a chance to educate the public as to how you are doing this. Find enclosed the full quote from which you have twisted your diatribe:

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

You continue to misquote small snippets and portions of various sentences or paragraphs to give supposed "support" for your accusations. This is a chance to educate the public as to how you are doing this. Find enclosed the full quote from which you have twisted your diatribe:

It's well past the point of an accusation - it reached facual status when Ellen wrote it down...

...Ellen said it was IMPOSSIBLE for Divinity to die.

...And repeatedly said Christ could have sinned AND DIED FOREVER.

I've only shown the multiple places where Ellen said this...

...It's a simple theological rubric so I don't see the need to quote paragraphs prior to and after the statement.

I am talking about you just quoting the whole paragraph the quote is in; not about the paragraph before of after - which certainly would not hurt anyway. If you insist on continuing to lift a sentence out of it's context, and isolate it from even the paragraph it was written in; then you are deliberately distorting our beliefs, and you are wrong about Adventists. Some of us here can manage to set the record straight; if it's too much for you to do.

I have also shown quotes to illustrate how Ellen White says over and over that Christ could have, but did not sin. She had always been very careful to spell out that "in Him was so sin;" and to ignore the evidence presented about this as you are is a clear indication that you know nothing about Adventists; and are only copying out someone else's notes, and claiming to have "studied" our beliefs. There are several anti-Adventist sites that mimmick almost word for word what you post here. You have not even come close to "deprogramming" anyone, anywhere.

[John317]

...I'm from the camp that believes God prior to the Incarnation was a "spiritual entity".

...I reject the SDA teaching that prior to the Incarnation The Son had a "rectum".

There is not now, nor ever has been, any SDA teaching that the pre-incarnate Christ had a "rectum."

By the way, you were asked by the moderator on a different thread to cease bringing this up. Please cooperate. It is not true, and it is disrepectful to Jesus Christ.

[John317]

...

I've pointed out several times that SDA's ( to include Ellen ) were explicit.....

...That while Jesus could be called God He wasn't God in the ultimate sense.

You are evidently forgetting or avoiding the fact that Ellen White clearly states that "Christ is the fullness of the Godhead" and "equal with the Father." See Ev. 614-617.

Jesus was and is human as well as divine, so He is different in this way from the Father. Christ has voluntarily and joyfully submitted Himself to the Father. As a man, Jesus was totally reliant upon the Father, just as we are. In that sense Jesus did not walk the earth as Almighty God. He walked the earth as a human being during His ministry, not as God-- even though He was both God and man.

Not only could Christ be called God, but Christ WAS and IS God. This is the testimony of both the Bible and Ellen White. She says plainly that Christ is "God, essentially, and in the hightest sense." One cannot be God in any higher sense than the "highest sense." That means Christ is God as fully as the Father is God. This agrees completely with Col. 2: 9. The "the whole fullness of Deity" lives continuously in Christ's body. How much Deity? "The whole fullness"-- which means all of Deity, i.e, ALL OF GOD.

[Overaged]

hey; how come you are still up this time of night John317?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

...

I've pointed out several times that SDA's ( to include Ellen ) were explicit.....

...That while Jesus could be called God He wasn't God in the ultimate sense.

You are evidently forgetting or avoiding the fact that Ellen White clearly states that "Christ is the fullness of the Godhead" and "equal with the Father." See Ev. 614-617.

[Gustave]

I am talking about you just quoting the whole paragraph the quote is in; not about the paragraph before of after - which certainly would not hurt anyway. If you insist on continuing to lift a sentence out of it's context, and isolate it from even the paragraph it was written in; then you are deliberately distorting our beliefs, and you are wrong about Adventists. Some of us here can manage to set the record straight; if it's too much for you to do.

[teresaq]

First, Gustave, I would like to thank you for bringing this up which should challenge us all to study deeper into this subject.

My understanding of both the bible and Ellen White's understanding of the scriptures is that Jesus would indeed have ceased to exist eternally if He had chosen to sin.

Now, regarding your conclusions below which I have colored red.

According to the Roman Catholic trinity doctrine Father, Son and HS are just 1 Being which would mean that if Jesus died then "God" Himself would cease to exist. That is correct isn't it?

(By the way are you SDA turned Catholic...it would explain what I perceive to evasiveness in some areas. )

At the end of the day the truth is that Jesus was a mysterious blend of God and man in one being. There has never been anyone like Him before nor will be. Jesus in His humanity could have sinned. Jesus, in His deity, if He had exercised His deity, could not have sinned, but He put Himself in the same position we face.

How Jesus could be a blend of man and God we many never be able to understand, but the scriptures declare it to be so!

Originally Posted By: Bobryan

You have repeatedly issued the false claim that you had a quote stating that Ellen White said Christ would "Cease to exist" -- in that hypothetical scenario... but in fact you have not given in one such statement.

the point remains.

Bob, you are being very childish here...

...Very well then - it's just another opportunity to educate anyone new that happens onto the thread.

Ellen White

HAD the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope. {1SM 256.1}

Question for next sabbath class: What was the "Divine Wrath" exercised against Adam when he sinned?.....

....& WHAT was the "Divine Wrath" to be exercised against "Christ" HAD the head of Christ been touched with sin?

Ellen White, Desire of Ages page 49

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the RISK of failure and eternal loss

Ellen White

Remember that Christ risked all; "tempted like as we are," he staked EVEN his OWN ETERNAL EXISTENCE upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Jesus would have yielded up his life, we may estimate the value of a soul

Question for next sabbath Bible class: How much did Christ RISK on His conflict with Lucifer?

Answer: "ALL", "EVEN HIS OWN ETERNAL EXISTENCE".

....

[Gustave]

First, Gustave, I would like to thank you for bringing this up which should challenge us all to study deeper into this subject.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

My understanding of both the bible and Ellen White's understanding of the scriptures is that Jesus would indeed have ceased to exist eternally if He had chosen to sin.

Ellen White was in favor of that however the Scriptures are totally against it...

...The Bible teaches against this with velocity.

Originally Posted By: teresaq

According to the Roman Catholic trinity doctrine Father, Son and HS are just 1 Being which would mean that if Jesus died then "God" Himself would cease to exist. That is correct isn't it?

God is ONE simple Nature or Substance and three distinct "Persons" all equally possess this Nature or Substance...

...God The Father, God The Son & God The Holy Spirit.

...Because the Nature or Substance is UNSEPARABLE from the Divine Persons who Eternally possess it "by Nature".

...

...

[Gustave]

would you provide the exact statement for your statements here? I understand the Methodist and Baptist statements to say differently

[teresaq]

Dealing with this issue, for the moment:

Originally Posted By: teresaq

"IMPECCABILITY" does not mean one cannot be tempted-especially when the scriptures are clear that Jesus was tempted...

It means the one impeccable is NOT succeptable TO temptation in any way, shape or form...

...

...The same thing applies w/ temptation - He COULD be tempted however he COULDN'T have sinned!

...I.E. God was ONLY tempted EXTERNALLY.

...

So Jesus was tempted, or He was not tempted?

Jesus was tempted, as the scriptures state quite clearly that He was, yet there was nothing in Him that responded to temptation, as Ellen White also clearly understood.

[Gustave]

so was Jesus tempted or was he not tempted

Both - Jesus was tempted externally by the Devil yet He was NOT tempted within Himself.....

....Like Ellen White said He was in that Jesus wanted to indulge in gossip but ever resisted His temptation.

It would be like someone walking up to you and tempting you to indulge in a sin that disgusted you.....

.....Eventually you would be tempted to participate in a sin that you WANTED to indulge in.

.....In Jesus' case He was always disgusted with sin so that He never had to resist His own desire to sin.