Sonny Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Let's try to stay with the subject. Christian living, as important as that is, is not the subject here. Christian living is the imparted righteousness of Christ, but what I would like to discuss is the imputed righteousness of Christ - the basis of our salvation. Please try to keep an open mind while you read the following link: read me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 14, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2011 When one carefully reads the epistles of Paul, with an open mind, one begins to realize that this great apostle, whom God especially set aside to expound the gospel of Jesus Christ, presents the very opposite view: that God has already redeemed, saved, or reconciled to Himself, the entire human race in Christ and only those who deliberately, persistently, and ultimately resist the convictions of the Holy Spirit will be lost. Does this mean that everyone will be saved except those who make a conscious, deliberate choice to reject Christ? If so, I believe this would be a mistake, since people can reject Christ by their day-to-day choices. In the same way, people choose to reject their spouse-- not necessarily due to a deliberate choice but because they make choices from day to day that finally result in separation and divorce. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 My opinion on this linked article leans to much toward "once saved, always saved". I deeply and reverently believe in righteousness by faith. I struggle to find the balance between faith and works. On any given day, ignoring works and resting in the wonderful peace that God offers in that message. Throwing out the concept of a balanced message. The next day concluding there is something I have to do, keep the law, once again throwing out the balanced concept! I have found that I cannot put to fine a point on either side of the argument. The whole matter is summed up in the very last sentence of this article. "Incidentally, it is this goodness of God that leads to true repentance and conversion." The essensce of righteosness by faith is the true acceptance of Christ in your life. From that will follow the fruits of a life lived in Him, and acceptance of all those "pesky little details" Ellen White lays out. From a spirit of love, not from a spirit of condemnation by the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Let's try to stay with the subject. Christian living, as important as that is, is not the subject here. Christian living is the imparted righteousness of Christ, but what I would like to discuss is the imputed righteousness of Christ - the basis of our salvation. Please try to keep an open mind while you read the following link: read me The basis for our salvation is: the merits of Christ. "There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ." T.M.97. "The sinner is justified through the merits of Jesus." F.W.107. Only through faith in the merits of Christ, only as we appropriate His merits to ourselves by claiming them can His righteousness be imputed to us and imparted to us. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 The Bible speaks of "faith without works" "faith and works" and "faith which works" The only true faith is "faith which works" It works by love (Gal.5:6) because it lays right hold upon the merits of Jesus Christ and thus the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts and that love is made manifest in obedience to the commandments of God. The true faith never says, I must do this or I must do that. The only faith that benefits us is the faith that appropriates to ourselves the merits of Christ in order to bring Christ's righteousness into the life and His righteousness accomplishes everything. sky Welcome back John. I can't believe you've been without a computer that long!!! :) Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 The only true faith is "faith which works" Yes, but I asked everyone to stay to the subject. What you are injecting into this thread is the imparted righteousness of Christ. Let's get back to the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 Does this mean that everyone will be saved except those who make a conscious, deliberate choice to reject Christ? I can't speak for Jack, but "yes" I think so. Isn't it persistent unbelief in the good news of the gospel (which I believe to be the "in Christ motif") that hardens the heart? Also, keep in mind that there are many false gospels out there being preached. Would God expect an unbeliever to accept something false? I think that a day's coming "when the gospel is preached to the whole world for a witness and then the end will come." At that time there will be no fence sitting. All will have to make a choice for or against Christ. Your thoughts....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddar Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 The Bible says very clearly that the battles we fight as Christians are 'the good fight of faith'. 1Tim 6. Many Christians mistake these battles of faith (vs. unbelief) with Christian living and personal performance. In order to be saved we need to 'believe' that Christ died for us individually and not only that but he also offers us a brand new life in him. Did Jesus only die for the saved - NO! He died for all, whether they believe that is a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 "When one carefully reads the epistles of Paul, with an open mind, one begins to realize that this great apostle, whom God especially set aside to expound the gospel of Jesus Christ, presents the very opposite view: that God has already redeemed, saved, or reconciled to Himself, the entire human race in Christ and only those who deliberately, persistently, and ultimately resist the convictions of the Holy Spirit will be lost." ~Jack Sequiera The quote from Jack Sequiera above defines the underlying issue, that is, that the gospel of Jesus IS NOT the gospel that Paul teaches. You can't say it any clearer than he did. Paul states that the OFFER of the righteousness of Christ is IMPARTED to the believer through BELIEF in the GRACE of God by FAITH, and that the only way to stop this from happening is to consciously reject the offer. When given a choice between eternal death (burning in the firey pits of hell forever)* or eternal life (which begins the moment you die here on earth)* no one in their right mind would choose the former over the latter. Then top that off with the idea that no matter what you do from then on you CANNOT ever remove yourself from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus and you have a big winner (especially when compared to the gospel of the Kingdom which Jesus taught). In Paul's version of the gospel (again which Jesus never taught) righteousness that is IMPARTED to the believer takes the place of the entire process of sanctification (as described below), and makes the idea of 'being saved' as easy as 'claiming' to love Jesus (no proof necessary) and saying the sinner's prayer. *[Not my personal beliefs, but the beliefs of general Christianity based on Paul's writings.] Here is a brief description of developing righteousness through the process of sanctification that Jesus taught to His own disciples; that is, by abiding in the words of God and Jesus Christ, by becoming sanctified in the truth because of those words such that the believer learns how (over time, and by the power of the Holy Spirit) to adhere to the standard of the Kingdom (the 10 Commandments) to which he must become a member through being born of the Holy Spirit, whereby the payment of the penalty of death which Jesus paid for the Kingdom of Heaven can now apply to that person that has been made righteous through this process and who has entered the Kingdom of Heaven. I call your attention to the words of Jesus in the following quote as a guide to figuring out which of these methods would be what Jesus Christ would have really taught. One is easy, and one is hard. Only one is correct. Choose wisely, choose well. (13) “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.  (14) For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matt. 7:13-14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 14, 2011 Members Share Posted June 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Does this mean that everyone will be saved except those who make a conscious, deliberate choice to reject Christ? I can't speak for Jack, but "yes" I think so. Isn't it persistent unbelief in the good news of the gospel (which I believe to be the "in Christ motif") that hardens the heart? Also, keep in mind that there are many false gospels out there being preached. Would God expect an unbeliever to accept something false? I think that a day's coming "when the gospel is preached to the whole world for a witness and then the end will come." At that time there will be no fence sitting. All will have to make a choice for or against Christ. Your thoughts....? I find that time to be right now! Anyone can walk out his front door and get hit by a car, or whatever, and as far as that person is concerned, the end has come for them. So I ask is that what people are waiting for? When the gospel has been preached to the whole world and than get ready? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddar Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 "When one carefully reads the epistles of Paul, with an open mind, one begins to realize that this great apostle, whom God especially set aside to expound the gospel of Jesus Christ, presents the very opposite view: that God has already redeemed, saved, or reconciled to Himself, the entire human race in Christ and only those who deliberately, persistently, and ultimately resist the convictions of the Holy Spirit will be lost." ~Jack Sequiera The quote from Jack Sequiera above defines the underlying issue, that is, that the gospel of Jesus IS NOT the gospel that Paul teaches. You can't say it any clearer than he did. Paul states that the OFFER of the righteousness of Christ is IMPARTED to the believer through BELIEF in the GRACE of God by FAITH, and that the only way to stop this from happening is to consciously reject the offer. When given a choice between eternal death (burning in the firey pits of hell forever)* or eternal life (which begins the moment you die here on earth)* no one in their right mind would choose the former over the latter. Then top that off with the idea that no matter what you do from then on you CANNOT ever remove yourself from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus and you have a big winner (especially when compared to the gospel of the Kingdom which Jesus taught). In Paul's version of the gospel (again which Jesus never taught) righteousness that is IMPARTED to the believer takes the place of the entire process of sanctification (as described below), and makes the idea of 'being saved' as easy as 'claiming' to love Jesus (no proof necessary) and saying the sinner's prayer. *[Not my personal beliefs, but the beliefs of general Christianity based on Paul's writings.] Here is a brief description of developing righteousness through the process of sanctification that Jesus taught to His own disciples; that is, by abiding in the words of God and Jesus Christ, by becoming sanctified in the truth because of those words such that the believer learns how (over time, and by the power of the Holy Spirit) to adhere to the standard of the Kingdom (the 10 Commandments) to which he must become a member through being born of the Holy Spirit, whereby the payment of the penalty of death which Jesus paid for the Kingdom of Heaven can now apply to that person that has been made righteous through this process and who has entered the Kingdom of Heaven. I call your attention to the words of Jesus in the following quote as a guide to figuring out which of these methods would be what Jesus Christ would have really taught. One is easy, and one is hard. Only one is correct. Choose wisely, choose well. (13) “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.  (14) For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matt. 7:13-14. The scribes and pharisees were the ones pushing the ten commandments, not Jesus. Jesus talked about faith just as much as Paul did, He actually gave examples of when it was ok to break the law. Matt 12 Why would Jesus give examples of Godly men who broke the law if he was pushing the ten commandments? Jesus pushed agape love the same as Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Matthew 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life ?" 17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good ? There is only One who is good ; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."18 Then he said to Him, "Which ones ?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER ; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY ; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL ; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS ;19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER ; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Matthew 5:19 NAS "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven ; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. John 14:21 NAS "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." John 15:10 NAS "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love ; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. Jesus never taught that we shouldn't or can't keep the ten commandments, and it is blasphemy to say He did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddar Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Matthew 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life ?" 17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good ? There is only One who is good ; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."18 Then he said to Him, "Which ones ?" And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER ; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY ; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL ; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS ;19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER ; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." Matthew 5:19 NAS "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven ; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. John 14:21 NAS "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." John 15:10 NAS "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love ; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. Jesus never taught that we shouldn't or can't keep the ten commandments, and it is blasphemy to say He did. What were Jesus Christ’s commandments? Here’s a good one in Mark chap. 1 ‘Repent ye, and believe the gospel’ New covenant commandments teach us to believe in the perfect and completed work of Jesus Christ (his perfect work becomes ours by faith) One last thing the Sabbath is written into God’s agape love. Sunday is an invention of man, so it could never be part of agape. I only say that so I don’t get accused of doing away with the Sabbath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Matt. 24:11-14: "And MANY false prophets will arise and will mislead MANY." "And because LAWLESSNESS, (those who refuse to obey ALL ten Commandments of the Covenant) is increased, MOST people's love (for God) will grow cold." "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved." "And THIS gospel OF THE KINGDDOM shall be preached in the whole world for a WITNESS to all the nations, and then the end shall come." Notice that the gospel that Jesus gave and taught is the "Gospel of (about) the Kingdom" of Heaven? It is NOT the same gospel as the one taught by Paul! Notice too the warning about not obeying ALL of the ten commandments? Notice what it says in John 14:21? Hmmmm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Jesus never taught that we shouldn't or can't keep the ten commandments, and it is blasphemy to say He did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 This is sad....Most of you always revert to the law. Who needs the gospel, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 This is sad....Most of you always revert to the law. Who needs the gospel, right? Yes, I would agree that this is really sad because it now appears that what Jesus prophesied about in Rev. 3:14-22 is hitting home! Thinking you are saved by grace because of the righteousness of Jesus (by faith) is the gospel Paul preached, but not what Jesus gave us and taught. It may be close to the time when this warning is to be taken seriously. He who has an ear without peanut butter in it listen up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 "This is sad..." That sums up 1888. And the frustration to find that delicate balance between faith and works has been with us ever since. There is nothing wrong with the law, without it we wouldn't know sin. We wouldn't have need of the saving grace of Christ! Like David, I want to come to the place where with every breath I can say, "Oh how I love thy law." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 My, my! This is the what happens when we read the Bible only in parts. It is also what happens when we take Ellen White in whole. Confusion! Confusion! Confusion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Hey miz3, have you seen this Ellen White quote lately? "The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God... It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction." (LDE 177, 178) Phase one: "...to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies." Phase two: "Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith," Things like doubting that Christ entered the Most Holy place in 1844, a fundamental belief. Phase three: "...doubt the holy scriptures comes next." Phase four: "...open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 ClubV12, I believe in the "inspired" testimonies of Ellen White. I believe in the VITAL Biblical points of SDA faith. Christ entering the Most Holy Place in 1844 cannot be a vital point of faith because the Bible states that Jesus Christ has already entered the Most Holy Place long before 1844 making a way for us to enter the Most Holy Place where God the Father is. That is why we come boldly before the throne into the Presence of God the Father. That is why Jesus taught us to pray, "Our Father ....". Coming boldly before the Father in the Most Holy Place because of Jesus Christ's work there before 1844 is indeed a vital point of our Faith! That is because it is Biblical. I believe in the Bible as the Holy Scriptures from God. NO REBELLION HERE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2011 ... Christ entering the Most Holy Place in 1844 cannot be a vital point of faith because the Bible states that Jesus Christ has already entered the Most Holy Place long before 1844 making a way for us to enter the Most Holy Place where God the Father is. The point is not whether Christ was ever in the Most Holy Place in heaven before. You appear to be referring to Heb.9: 12, but that verse is mistranslated in the NKJV and NIV. The writer of the book of Hebrews is not concerned with which part of the sanctuary Christ entered. He is concerned with the fact that Christ went to be with God the Father and that we have immediate access to God through Christ. On the other hand, the Investigative Judgment concerns Christ's entering into the Most Holy Place for the purpose of Judgment in preparation for the return of Christ for His Church. The Bible evidence for the Investigative Judgment is clearly found, among other verses, in Daniel 7 and 8 and in Rev. 11 and 14. Hebrews 9: 23 makes it plain that the heavenly things need cleansing. Compare carefully Daniel 8: 14. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Okay guys, I'm through. We can't stay to topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2011 I believe in the "inspired" testimonies of Ellen White. I believe in the VITAL Biblical points of SDA faith. Christ entering the Most Holy Place in 1844 cannot be a vital point of faith .... Which testimonies do you believe are "inspired" and which are uninspired in your opinion? Upon what basis do you draw your conclusions? It is merely your opinion that the Investigative Judgment is not a vital point of SDA faith. Anyone familiar with the history of the SDA movement recognizes that the Investigative Judgment is a vital point of the SDA faith. We wouldn't exist as a distinct church without it. I believe it makes more sense to accept the vote of the world SDA church in General Conference in regard to the centrality of the Investigative Judgment than to accept your private opinion about it. At the very least, you should explain why you believe it is not a vital point of the SDA faith, and not merely make the claim that it isn't. Show it historically as well as theologically. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Does this mean that everyone will be saved except those who make a conscious, deliberate choice to reject Christ? If so, I believe this would be a mistake, since people can reject Christ by their day-to-day choices. In the same way, people choose to reject their spouse-- not necessarily due to a deliberate choice but because they make choices from day to day that finally result in separation and divorce. Not in the same way. To reject a spouse, you first have to know and be married to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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