"In Christ" - the gospel explained

[Sonny]

Even though the Bible is very plain that there is a race to be run, a fight to be fought, and sins to be confessed AND forsaken....

Yes, all this is nice but it's not the subject. What God does in you is always incomplete. If not then you could say "I am holy, just as God is holy." But you can't! So you better depend on what Christ did 2000 years ago. It's called the gospel. Get to know it.

[Sonny]

the "flesh" is the outer "flesh" because later in that same verse it says that Christ ....

Baloney!

If the Son of God just assumed our skin (or whatever you are trying to say) then what do you do with this?

He "was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness." [Rom 1:3,4 NKJV]

If Christ just took our skin or meat...or whatever...then David only had skin or meat...or whatever.

But we know David "was brought forth in iniquity (our bent to self), And in iniquity my mother conceived me."

So David had our humanity (flesh) indwelt with iniquity. Christ took this humanity into Himself. He took it in order to legally redeem us. If you reject this you are still under law and the law states that you must die. That means you must take the 2nd death.

[Dr. Rich]

2 Corinthians 5:14 NIV For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Quote:

There is NO such thing as 'a body of Christ' and Paul was spouting lies by saying that the church is the body.

Now who is telling lies? Should I believe you or Paul?

It seems that it is you that's turned to a different gospel, which is really no gospel at all. I suggest that you embrace Paul's letters to the church because they are of God.

[Guest]

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the nature of Abraham.

[miz3]

Sonny,

I am shocked you called John chapter one "baloney"?

I will not go there with you!

As to Romans chapter one, Sonny, you and I have already been there. You were shown to be wrong before on this very text (Romans 1:3-4) already!

Look at the text there are two parts.

Part One: "He (Jesus) was born of the seed of David according to the flesh" is talking about Christ's OUTER NATURE!

Part Two: "declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness" is talking about Christ's INNER NATURE! It is Holy!

Did you notice the word "AND" in between these two statements showing that there are two parts to describe Jesus Christ. One deals with Christ's outer nature and the second deals with Christ's inner nature.

The gospel you cite is fine except for this one vital point.

You want to make Christ "sin for us" at the Birth to satisfy those that believe in the "sinful nature" of Christ while at the same time advocating the Words of Paul. These two cannot be married. Why? Simple!

Christ did not "become sin for us" until the CROSS!

If you only agree to the Cross as the point of where Christ became "sin for us" then the Gospel you espouse would be perfectly True.

By advocating "sin for us" at the Birth you deny the Centralism of the Cross!

[Dr. Rich]

[Words Deleted by moderator.] Jesus was Michael, not a man, but came to the would AS a human without any DNA (bloodline) from Mary or Joseph. Paul has Jesus being declared the Son of God ONLY after the resurection. Jesus was the the Son of God when God the Father and God the Mother placed Michael as a zygot into Mary. At His birth, He was also called the son of man because of the 'birth' as a human.

Jesus NEVER had any type of sin in Him and NEVER took on any sin from anyone else''NEVER, NEVER! IF He had, then Jesus would not have been perfect. The only thing that Jesus did by dying was to pay the penalty of the second death for Adam' sin, thereby purchasing for Himself a Kingdom as bond servants as found in Rev. 5:9-10.

Jesus, as Michael, was born as a human for ONE reason and He said what that was in John 18:37 "For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice."

If you don't understand this then you must not be 'of the truth'.

[ClubV12]

For those who reject the Lords prophets it is impossible to understand the truth. Their confused state of mind approaches that of insanity, their testimony carries no weight.

[Dr. Rich]

For those who reject the Lords prophets it is impossible to understand the truth. Their confused state of mind approaches that of insanity, their testimony carries no weight.

You will NEVER be wrong by following after the words of Jesus Christ! If so, then Jesus lied and I know that He didn't! Believing that someone is a prophet of God when the truth of the matter that this person is NOT of God, will cause you to believe in lies. God did NOT need another true prophet after Jesus Christ came to this world and IF He did, then Jesus' ministry was a complete failure. Listening to people who will tell you otherwise will cause division among the true followers of Jesus, which is something that Jesus warned us about in Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters."

What does this mean? It means that those who gather are the ones who tell people to listing and follow ONLY after the words of Jesus! Those who 'scatter' are the ones who tell people that the words of Jesus are not enough and to follow after others such as someone who CALLS THEMSELF AN APOSTLE and/or CALLS THEMSELF A PROPHET.

I do NOT have my own gospel--I am teaching people to be a follower of Jesus Christ ONLY! It is HIS words that are important--not someone else's words, especially when they admit they never knew Jesus!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The plan of salvation is complete restoration, not just justification. That's the good news.

You don't understand what it means to be just. To be just means that the law is completely content with your righteousness. Is the law completely happy with your life or are you falling short of God's love as seen in the life of Christ?

And apparently, you have no understanding what it means for the perfect righteousness of Christ to answer the law's demands for me, and fail to understand that those who have truly repented (sorry & made a 180 degree turn) are no longer under the law but under grace. When one dies to the law, one is freed from that law, Rom 7:1.

[Sonny]

I am shocked you called John chapter one "baloney"?

Okay, enough of you....You know very well I was referring to your comment: ""flesh" is the outer "flesh".

You are talking gibberish at this point. You're making things up. No use going on.....

[Sonny]

Gerry, enough games, can you tell me how Christ can take you to heaven and at the same time satisfy His law that justly condemns you. The answer is the gospel. If you just don't know, say "I don't know"

[ClubV12]

A strong delusion, for some sooner, others later, but for all it will come in due time, for those that have rejected His prophets.

[John317]

...And since it is impossible for Jesus Christ to have any sin IN Him it is impossible for Him to have anyone who is still sinful IN Him.

Does this make sense?

Are you saying that no one who is sinful can ever be "in Christ"? You apparently are, but if so, your argument here is not biblically sound. Where do you get the idea that a person must be completely without sin before he can be "in Christ"?

What do you believe the NT means by "in Christ"?

As long as it is on earth, the body of Christ, the Church, will never be sinless. Your belief would mean that Moses and Elijah were either "sinless" or not in Christ. But it is obvious to me that neither of them were ever sinless before their translation to heaven.

[miz3]

Okay, enough of you.

That is fine with me.

[John317]

... God did NOT need another true prophet after Jesus Christ came to this world and IF He did, then Jesus' ministry was a complete failure.

I don't believe this is true.

Your view, for one thing, would mean that God had no need of the writer of the book of Revelation. It would also mean that all prophets after Jesus are false. But if God was never going to have a prophet after Christ, why didn't Christ tell His followers to reject ALL prophets who came after Him?

There's also the prophecy of Joel 2: 30 which points to a future time when God will pour out His Spirit on both women and men in order for them to prophesy.

Rev. 12: 17 says clearly that before Christ returns, the gift of prophecy would be restored-- to be found among God's last-day people. "The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy" (Rev. 19: 10). The Spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit who manifests Himself, or testifies of Jesus, through prophets.

One of the main reasons I can't accept your statement is that it ignores the fact that Christ did not tell His followers everything that was necessary for the Church to know. Christ Himself told the disciples that they weren't yet ready for ALL the truth. For this reason, Christ promised the coming of the Holy Spirit, who would continue to teach them.

As the Church developed and met various situations, it would continue to need the Spirit of prophecy. Christ's preaching was primarily directed to the Jews, so it only makes biblical sense that when the gospel went to the Gentiles, there would be a need for an inspired application of the message for the world church.

Similarly, God revealed a great deal of truth through Moses, yet that fact doesn't preclude the necessity of additional prophets.

[Gerr]

Gerry, enough games, can you tell me how Christ can take you to heaven and at the same time satisfy His law that justly condemns you. The answer is the gospel. If you just don't know, say "I don't know"

Incredible!!! I have shown you how sinner Abel is going to be admitted into heaven because he accepted and presented the sacrificial Lamb as his substitute. Shown you Abraham who believed God and entered into a covenant relationship with God and will be admitted into heaven because he was accounted as righteous. I have cited to you Isaiah 53 where the sufferring Servant took the punishment the sinner deserves. I showed in the Levitical system how the sinner presented his substitute in the sacrificial animal. And you say I'm playing games? Who is playing games and who really doesn't know?

ESV | 2 Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Let me quote someone who might be able to explain it to you in a way you might be able to understand:

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}

Isn't the Gospel beautiful?

[miz3]

I don't believe this is true.

Your view, for one thing, would mean that God had no need of the writer of the book of Revelation. It would also mean that all prophets after Jesus are false. But if God was never going to have a prophet after Christ, why didn't Christ tell His followers to reject ALL prophets who came after Him?

There's also the prophecy of Joel 2: 30 which points to a future time when God will pour out His Spirit on both women and men in order for them to prophesy.

Rev. 12: 17 says clearly that before Christ returns, the gift of prophecy would be restored-- to be found among God's last-day people. "The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy" (Rev. 19: 10). The Spirit of prophecy is the Holy Spirit who manifests Himself, or testifies of Jesus, through prophets.

One of the main reasons I can't accept your statement is that it ignores the fact that Christ did not tell His followers everything that was necessary for the Church to know. Christ Himself told the disciples that they weren't yet ready for ALL the truth. For this reason, Christ promised the coming of the Holy Spirit, who would continue to teach them.

As the Church developed and met various situations, it would continue to need the Spirit of prophecy. Christ's preaching was primarily directed to the Jews, so it only makes biblical sense that when the gospel went to the Gentiles, there would be a need for an inspired application of the message for the world church.

Similarly, God revealed a great deal of truth through Moses, yet that fact doesn't preclude the necessity of additional prophets.

Well put!

[Dr. Rich]

That's a good argument John317, but one that does not agree with what Jesus prayed for in John 17. Jesus gave the information found in the book of Revelation to the Apostle John because John was an eyewitness, one of those who's words people could read and be blessed by, and this is exactly what Jesus prayed to His Father for. Jesus did not pray for those who read the words of Paul or EGW. How can you argue with that?

[miz3]

I take it Dr. Rich since you think only the Gospels and other "eyewitness" writings are "inspired" that you don't believe the Old Testament is "inspired" either?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Gerry, enough games, can you tell me how Christ can take you to heaven and at the same time satisfy His law that justly condemns you. The answer is the gospel. If you just don't know, say "I don't know"

Incredible!!! I have shown you how sinner Abel is going to be admitted into heaven because he accepted and presented the sacrificial Lamb as his substitute.

How does that answer the law?

[Sonny]

Here's EGW on "in Christ"

"In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.

This is right on the money! Note - as "the son of man" Jesus took "the nature of Adam, the transgressor". Very, very clear language!

[Sonny]

Here's another one:

"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption."

Note that Jesus obedience wasn't done individually. He didn't send the Holy Spirit into an individual to infuse him with His righteousness. That's not how He redeemed you. Instead Christ as the Son of God took our "fallen humanity" into Himself. Thus Christ kept the law in our humanity. He rewrote our history.

[Sonny]

And another one:

Christ could have done nothing during His earthly ministry in saving fallen man if the divine had not been blended with the human. The limited capacity of man cannot define this wonderful mystery—the blending of the two natures, the divine and the human. It can never be explained. Man must wonder and be silent. And yet man is privileged to be a partaker of the divine nature, and in this way he can to some degree enter into the mystery (Letter 5, 1889).

"The Godhead was not made human, and the human was not deified by the blending together of the two natures."

Wow, I've never read this, but I made this conclusion already. She is saying that Jesus, as God, remained Himself. His nature remained the same - sinless. The human (Jesus as the Son of Man) didn't become Deity - that nature remained sinful.

[Sonny]

And another one:

Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. ....

This is a great mystery, a mystery that will not be fully, completely understood in all its greatness until the translation of the redeemed shall take place. Then the power and greatness and efficacy of the gift of God to man will be understood. But the enemy is determined that this gift shall be so mystified that it will become as nothingness (The S.D.A. Bible Commentary, Ellen G. White Comments, vol. 5, p. 1113).

[Sonny]

"He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature" [Medical Ministry, Page 181]

Very plain!